86 replies to this topic

[N0D]

Greetings. I'm new to the game and mwo forums...


"Ah... the classical which-mech-first-for-a-beginner question!"... is what your thought will probably be if you continue reading this, and that'll be somewhat true. However! There are some reasons for me to create one of those topics, which were made hundreds of times.
First of all, my gameplay preference is sort of unusual: i am a loner and i like sniping with instant hit weapons and hide in cover, when receive return fire. And no, i've tried lrm's and ppc's on some trial mechs and i don't like how it "feels" to control them. Ppc's need some degree of prediction on long range (i'm no good at that yet), and lrm's are... well... they feel "unrewarding". No skill involved, limited pinpoint potential, and stuff like that.
Currently i'm running HBK-4P with 2 ERLL's at highest attach points (for shooting, while showing only the little bit of a "hunch" over terrain) and 7 SL's for those, who appear up close out of nowhere (sadly, this happens A LOT). This satisfies me for now, except my damage output seems somewhat low. I've bought HBK because i wanted to customize something, and HBK was medium, cheap and laser oriented (4p). Aside from that, this mech will most likely be temporary, and i won't upgrade it further with any of those double sinks, better engines and stuff.
Secondly, i sort of already know which mechs i want to pilot... in theory. The actual advice i would gladly accept, is to which one i should try to grind my way to from the start, and what should the loadout be. The mechs in question are SCR-PRIME with an array of lasers for different situations and DWF-S with 8 C-ERLL's only (because Daishi is toooo sloooow to follow enemy light mech up close with its crosshairs anyway, so if lights surround me, i'm dead for sure)
Now that you know all the details (i hope you won't "tl;dr" me), please do give an advice. Should i just grit my teeth and start grinding for DWF, or does SCR "feels" better, and i should try it first? Are there actually any other mechs like this that do the job better with my preferred playstyle? Maybe there's some way to improve loadouts of those two (not using rockets, ugh)? I've heard something about quirks that can influence my choice - what are they specifically, and which combinations are best, according to my preferred playstyle?

Thanks for answers in advance. N0D out. O7

[Acierocolotl]

If you're going to snipe, your goal is to avoid getting hit, and you need speed to shoot and relocate. You want to take a quick shot and get out of sight, because somebody on the other team has at least as much firepower as you do and punish if you if you just loiter, silhouetted on a hilltop.

If you just hunker down and try to hide, guaranteed roving lights will find you and make your life miserable, something you've discovered already in your Hunchback. So you want a light or a fast medium, and you probably want to start getting the hang of gauss rifles.

A Direwolf is there to terrify the bejesus out of the other team and bring an awful lot of firepower to bear in a mech that can take a few hits. It's the absolute opposite of want you want, you're too slow to avoid return fire, too slow to move to new firing positions, and completely screwed if you're caught alone by agile opponents. If you thought getting mauled by lights was bad now, wait 'til you get caught on your own in a Direwolf. We call them Dire Whales for a reason; if you're not with the main body of your team in an assault, you're just a free kill. Full stop.

Furthermore, all those lasers aren't going to work. You can't really fire more than a few large lasers before the dread "ghost heat" kicks in: where you fire multiple weapons of the same class, you take a cumulative heat penalty (a measure to prevent "boating"). You can chainfire those lasers, but then you're just standing there like a giant strobe, a beacon that shines, "A sniper here, kill me!" and you can't twist your torso to spread damage while also trying to keep chainfired lasers on target.

So, just to sum up: you want a fast mech, and optimally ballistic weapons, gauss rifles optimally so you can snap off a hard hit quickly. If you insist on lasers, I'd suggest a Raven 3L, with ECM of course. Others can get that to work, and you have enough speed to outrun anything except brawling light mechs.

[Redshift2k5]

Stormcrows are a solid choice, and are also very versatile and allow for mix of lasers, missiles(don't underestimate Clan SRMs), and ballistics, while also being pretty fast and packing a clan XL for survivability. Can bring lots of lasers for laservomit meta and it's pretty fast so you can get out of trouble. Clan lasers have more range than IS lasers so if you have good aim you can shoot them farther. If you want a solid mech to shoot&scoot with lasers, can't go wrong with the Stormcrow(Or a little heavier and use the Timberwolf or Hellbringer)

I do enjoy my Direwolves, but they are very slow and also really expensive. Hard to reccomend. Most Clan Heavies can do just as much damage and move way way faster. Play a Direwolf if you want to be a turret.

[Luscious Dan]

Extreme range sniping with instant hit weapons is a tough spot in this game. The competitive play meta allegedly features a lot more of these ERLL engagements (I don't play competitive matches or CW), but if you're playing solo it's not really as effective. Enemies often won't cooperate, and you get rushed as you already know.

Holding the cursor on target for over 1s is also tricky at extreme ranges, even if you have the advanced zoom module for 4x magnification. You'll likely want to lower your mouse sensitivity when playing a laser sniper (and removing mouse smoothing or acceleration can also be handy... makes your movements a tad more jerky but removes lag from the controls). I have a Razer mouse that lets you change sensitivity on the fly with the up/down buttons below the mouse wheel. Very handy at times.

In terms of upgrading your mechs, the number of bonuses you get from upgrading the chassis (endo-steel and DHS are auto-includes for Inner Sphere mechs; you rarely have room for FF armor though). Laser builds with single heat sinks won't be remotely effective at heat management. Even many ballistic/missile builds will get too hot for you without DHS.

Switching back to a STD250 engine and DHS gives you a significant boost in speed, responsiveness (torso movement and turning gets better with a bigger engine), and of course heat efficiency.

And mastering mechs is also a huge benefit. You get 10% to just about everything from leveling up their skills, which is then doubled when you master 3 variants of the same chassis. Add in speed tweak for 10% speed boost (getting 10% more speed through engines is often a LOT of tonnage) and a second module slot once you get further in the game and have money to burn, and you can see there's a ton of advantages to fully leveling a mech.

Anyway, I like the Hunchback chassis (don't own them, but I have a lot of respect for the hunch and its varied playstyles across variantss) but sounds like you want a Clan LPL build to suit your play style. Good range (600+), high damage and manageable beam duration. Just don't fire more than 2 at a time

[Skarlock]

Actually quite a few questions you have here, but I'll try to answer some.

N0D, on 31 August 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

i am a loner and i like sniping with instant hit weapons and hide in cover, when receive return fire.

This is actually what a lot of the current top tier mechs do, except it's better to simply hide before your enemy even shoots at you and re-position Literally a large part of top level play revolves around this, it's affectionately (or not depending on individual preference) refered to as "laser and gauss vomit".

Quote

Currently i'm running HBK-4P with 2 ERLL's at highest attach points (for shooting, while showing only the little bit of a "hunch" over terrain) and 7 SL's for those, who appear up close out of nowhere (sadly, this happens A LOT). This satisfies me for now, except my damage output seems somewhat low. I've bought HBK because i wanted to customize something, and HBK was medium, cheap and laser oriented (4p). Aside from that, this mech will most likely be temporary, and i won't upgrade it further with any of those double sinks, better engines and stuff.

So, the game doesn't explain this very well, but you can do 3 large lasers for an inner sphere mech like the hunchback. The damage output is very low in large part due to two factors more than likely. You don't have all the pilot tree skills, and you don't have double heat sinks. Doulbe heat sinks vastly increase your maximum heat capacity and your cooling rate, thus your damage is sub par because you can't shoot much. Also, if you really want to do that type of build, use 3 large lasers but no more. Firing too many of the same kind of laser generates additional heat (called ghost heat) so you need to be aware of this. There is a warning when you are in mechlab in the upper left hand corner that will tell you when you need to fire weapons with a half second delay in between in order to avoid generating a larger heat spike.

Quote

The mechs in question are SCR-PRIME with an array of lasers for different situations and DWF-S with 8 C-ERLL's only (because Daishi is toooo sloooow to follow enemy light mech up close with its crosshairs anyway, so if lights surround me, i'm dead for sure)
Now that you know all the details (i hope you won't "tl;dr" me), please do give an advice. Should i just grit my teeth and start grinding for DWF, or does SCR "feels" better, and i should try it first?

Dire Wolves are very unforgiving of positional mistakes because you'll find yourself in a bad spot, outnumbered 4 or 5 to one, and die without being able to escape because you're too slow. They are exceedingly powerful but I wouldn't do 8 er large lasers on it. If you fire more than 2 at a time you will generate a lot of extra heat. If you fire all 8 at once your mech will instantly overheat and potentially die to the overheat damage.

My suggestion, go with a storm crow and buy the energy omnipods you need to fit 1 large pulse laser and 4 or 5 er medium lasers, fill the rest of your tonnage with a targeting computer I and double heat sinks. You will be fast enough to escape a lot of situations, but have more armor than a light. Just be mindful of your heat and fight stuff at around 500 meters or so, and your damage output should go up considerably. Once you have gotten enough cbills, buy 2 more storm crows and play around with different builds and such, then master all of them. Also, get a seismic sensor module and radar deprivation module and equip them on your storm crow once they are elited in the pilot skill trees.

[Luscious Dan]

Acierocolotl, on 31 August 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

If you're going to snipe, your goal is to avoid getting hit, and you need speed to shoot and relocate. You want to take a quick shot and get out of sight, because somebody on the other team has at least as much firepower as you do and punish if you if you just loiter, silhouetted on a hilltop.

If you just hunker down and try to hide, guaranteed roving lights will find you and make your life miserable, something you've discovered already in your Hunchback. So you want a light or a fast medium, and you probably want to start getting the hang of gauss rifles.

A Direwolf is there to terrify the bejesus out of the other team and bring an awful lot of firepower to bear in a mech that can take a few hits. It's the absolute opposite of want you want, you're too slow to avoid return fire, too slow to move to new firing positions, and completely screwed if you're caught alone by agile opponents. If you thought getting mauled by lights was bad now, wait 'til you get caught on your own in a Direwolf. We call them Dire Whales for a reason; if you're not with the main body of your team in an assault, you're just a free kill. Full stop.

Furthermore, all those lasers aren't going to work. You can't really fire more than a few large lasers before the dread "ghost heat" kicks in: where you fire multiple weapons of the same class, you take a cumulative heat penalty (a measure to prevent "boating"). You can chainfire those lasers, but then you're just standing there like a giant strobe, a beacon that shines, "A sniper here, kill me!" and you can't twist your torso to spread damage while also trying to keep chainfired lasers on target.

So, just to sum up: you want a fast mech, and optimally ballistic weapons, gauss rifles optimally so you can snap off a hard hit quickly. If you insist on lasers, I'd suggest a Raven 3L, with ECM of course. Others can get that to work, and you have enough speed to outrun anything except brawling light mechs.

Few points here. The IS small laser actually doesn't have ghost heat, and ERLL can safely fire 3 so his Hunchy doesn't need to worry about that.

For the Raven, 3L is actually not necessarily the best sniper anymore. 2X and 4X have stronger quirks; the 2X makes a good 3LL build (has -heat generation quirks and ghost heat allows 3 LL no problem) and I think I might actually buy myself a fourth Raven so I can make a double LPL 2X. That thing has massive beam duration and range bonuses, and even a couple jump jets, so should be pretty unique among the Raven line. The downside of these Raven builds is that they're slower than I'm used to in a light.

Anyway, the Raven is an interesting suggestion for a new player. They are pretty good mechs, and I think they make you a good player, teaching you hit and run tactics and other good habits you can bring to your next mechs. The big downside is c-bill cost, since they need XL engines, Endo, FF and DHS to really be effective.

[Rogue Jedi]

the SCR is definitely better than the DWF, however if you want to go solo and long range then a fast light (Spider, Raven, Firestarter, Jenner) or Cicada or would probably work better, just because how much easier it would be to reposition

[MechWarrior3671771]

I don't approve of the 3L sniper, because:

1) snipers must shoot and relocate. That means you are spending too much time with your guns not sending damage down range. My 2ERLL build stays with the pack and provides ecm, watches flanks, and picks at whatever the team is shooting at. Drop the engine down to a 255xl for extra heat sinks. You don't need the 280xl for this role.
2) seismic will help you from getting jumped, but if any light dogfighter light finds you out there alone, you are doomed - its your 2ERLL long burn time VS its multiple pulse lasers.

[Luscious Dan]

Fenrisulvyn, on 31 August 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

I don't approve of the 3L sniper, because:

1) snipers must shoot and relocate. That means you are spending too much time with your guns not sending damage down range. My 2ERLL build stays with the pack and provides ecm, watches flanks, and picks at whatever the team is shooting at. Drop the engine down to a 255xl for extra heat sinks. You don't need the 280xl for this role.
2) seismic will help you from getting jumped, but if any light dogfighter light finds you out there alone, you are doomed - its your 2ERLL long burn time VS its multiple pulse lasers.

My current Raven builds are:

RVN-3L
XL 280, LPL, 2xMPL, ECM

RVN-2X
XL 225, 3xLL

HUGINN
XL 300, 2x SRM4, 2x MG

RVN-4X
XL 255, 2x LPL (this one is the hypothetical build, haven't bought it yet)

The 3L and 2X have been performing shockingly well of late. After playing the Cheetah for a few hundred matches I decided to go back to my first love and see how the Raven did with pulse lasers, and it's been doing almost as well as the Cheetah. Plenty of multi-kill games, including a few with top team damage (I think I was around 760 in one game).

The only time I don't drop in a mech with advanced seismic sensor module is when I forget to put it in, it helps for up close builds and for anyone else who is worried about being flanked. Simply the best module in the game IMO.

Edited by Luscious Dan, 31 August 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[Kmieciu]

I advise against RVN-3L with 2xERLL because it has 1,15 beam duration. That's too long to be pinpoint. Both the alpha strike and the heat efficiency is poor: 18 damage for 16 heat

Try this instead: RVN-2X 2xLL 2xML
Thanks to quirks the LL beam is only 0.85 seconds and that helps to put the damage where you want it to go. And you do 18 damage for 11,2 Heat. That's a big difference right there. With a range module, the Large lasers have 518 meter range, and when the enemies get close you've got a nice 28 damage alpha strike @ 324 range.
ECM is not that important when you're 500 meters away. It's not going to hide you because there is a bright blue beam that shows where you are :-) Better buy Radar Deprivation module ASAP, because it grants immunity against LRMs :-)

Luscious Dan, on 31 August 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

RVN-4X
XL 255, 2x LPL (this one is the hypothetical build, haven't bought it yet)

I've got about 40 games in it and it is one the most pinpoint laser builds out there. With the beam duration of 0,47 seconds it's like a AC22 with no travel time. It also has 511 meter range. When you poke with it, you don't even have to stop moving - you shoot and get back into cover in one fluid motion. I remember poking a 6xUAC5 Direwolf from 500 meters away and he was helpless against me, because I was back behind cover by the time his UAC rounds reached me. He was so mad he was shooting the ground in front of me while I waited in cover. I cored him in the end :-)
The 4X build has lower DPS than the 2X, but still about 50% better than 3L with 2xERLL. It also has a jumpjet so it can get where normal Ravens won't, albeit rather slowly.

Edited by Kmieciu, 31 August 2015 - 10:00 AM.

[Appogee]

N0D, on 31 August 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

First of all, my gameplay preference is sort of unusual: i am a loner and i like sniping with instant hit weapons and hide in cover, when receive return fire.

Oh, 'camping' you mean.

It tends to get teams killed in MWO because, either:

a. the enemy focus fire on the available targets, while you're busy hiding and not shooting. After they've killed a couple of us, their advantage in numbers snowballs. When the rest of us are dead, they come and easily kill you ... and we all lose together.

or

b. A couple of Lights spot you sniping, flank the main battle, come up behind and kill you. Then while they're at the back, they take us out from the back.

So, don't be that guy, costing your team the match, or making us carry you.

Mechwarrior is a team game. Teams that move and shoot together win. You have plenty of armor and you can take some hits. Use cover intelligently. Move with our team and shoot what we're shooting to give us the strength of numbers.

And don't camp at the back because that will just make it harder for you - and the team - to win.

Edited by Appogee, 31 August 2015 - 10:00 AM.

[Luscious Dan]

Kmieciu, on 31 August 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

ECM is not that important when you're 500 meters away. It's not going to hide you because there is a bright blue beam that shows where you are :-) Better buy Radar Deprivation module ASAP, because it grants immunity against LRMs :-)

Radar Derp is indeed awesome on any light, especially if they don't have ECM. Fully mastering the chassis to get Adv. Seismic and Radar Derp makes you very aware of nearby enemy movement, while they will struggle to keep tabs on you. Perfect for hit and run at close/mid range, or shoot 'n scoot longer range tactics.

That being said, mastering and multiple modules is more long-term. The builds don't *need* them, but they will be super handy.

Edited by Luscious Dan, 31 August 2015 - 10:00 AM.

[N0D]

Rogue Jedi, on 31 August 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

the SCR is definitely better than the DWF, however if you want to go solo and long range then a fast light (Spider, Raven, Firestarter, Jenner) or Cicada or would probably work better, just because how much easier it would be to reposition

True, but lights are very limited in tonnage and space. Can't really boat as much guns and sinks, and certainly can't have "backup" options, like small lasers for close combat on my HBK...
I imagine that light mechs are either for *a* complete newbies and strangers to Mechwarrior thematics, or *b* seasoned pro's, who know maps like the palm of their hand. I am neither (or at least i hope, i'm not *a*). I seek somewhat "mistake-forgiving" variant.

Edited by N0D, 31 August 2015 - 10:26 AM.

[SnagaDance]

I think you should try out the Gauss rifle. A true sniper weapon. Long range, fast projectile speed, and best of all, no telltale (blue laser) trail to trace back to your position.

The Jagermechs all make good dual-gauss snipers, while the Cicada 3m makes for a sneaky ECM guass sniper, though it's maybe a bit more for advanced players.

But wait, you've already got yourself a Hunchback.......if you're willing to invest some real money into the game you could buy yourself the Grid Iron Hero mech. Awesome Gauss quirks that make it a fast fire killer combined with that high mount. And you'd already be on the way to Mastering the mech with another Hunchback already in the stable.

And the 30% C-bill bonus on the GI will help to get you all necessary C-bills for the 3rd Hunchback and all the upgrades.

[Acierocolotl]

N0D, on 31 August 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

True, but lights are very limited in tonnage and space. Can't really boat as much guns and sinks, and certainly can't have "backup" options, like small lasers for close combat on my HBK...
I imagine that light mechs are either for *a* complete newbies and strangers to Mechwarrior thematics, or *b* seasoned pro's, who know maps like the palm of their hand. I am neither (or at least i hope, i'm not *a*). I seek somewhat "mistake-forgiving" variant.

You need backup options only if you tend to run out of options. As long as you have both legs on your light mech, you have the "run away" option, and he can't shoot you if he can't get close enough.

The impression I'm getting is you're sort of looking for an easy mode, and there really isn't any (histrionics about LRMs and Streaks notwithstanding). You may as well use a mech that's going to teach you the ins and outs of a map (as if you're going faster, you'll be seeing more of it), and able to get you out of trouble if you get into it (and you will).

[Nik Reaper]

Well, from what you said the Hellbringer seems to be what you need, and that is enough high mounted weapons, ecm is a snipers friend ( no anoying red box for enemies to shoot at ) and enough weight to fit far reaching weapons with enough heatsinks or ammo, plus it's kinda meta so theres that too.

[Rogue Jedi]

N0D, on 31 August 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

True, but lights are very limited in tonnage and space. Can't really boat as much guns and sinks, and certainly can't have "backup" options, like small lasers for close combat on my HBK...
I imagine that light mechs are either for *a* complete newbies and strangers to Mechwarrior thematics, or *b* seasoned pro's, who know maps like the palm of their hand. I am neither (or at least i hope, i'm not *a*). I seek somewhat "mistake-forgiving" variant.

in that case you will be far better off if you stay with the team, aim to stick 50-100m from the main group.

I suggested a Light Mech because they can get out of trouble, if you want to run off on your own you had better be able to deal with 3 fast light Mechs at once when a wolfpack comes for you (and they will), or be able to escape from them, it is not possible to deal with multiple light Mech simultaneously unless you pilot a Mech specifically built for that purpose ^{(meaning you would not have space for long range weapons)} or you are a vastly superior pilot.

unless your Mech can do more than 120kph it is usualy a bad idea to go off on your own.

Light Mechs are fast and hard to hit, there best uses are scouting, capping and taking down lone fire support/sniper Mechs. however thhey can also e highly effective as harrassers or distractions, Lights are not a good idea for complete beginners because one mistake and you are dead.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 31 August 2015 - 10:57 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

I will not say that you need a specific mech. Instead i'll say that you should try to accomplish these things if you want to be a successfull sniper.
- Shoot but do not get shot in return.
- Staying unpredictable is yet another layer of armor.
- When relocating take line of sight, relocation distance and angle from your last firing spot into concideration.
- Shooting once is safe, shooting twice can be ok but shooting thrice is just asking for a big alpha to your center torso.

Here is a guide to how to accomplish all of this. It can be done by fast medium mechs or any light mech you can name.
Even the Urbie can do it if it's engine is big enough.
Non Meta Light Mech Tactics Guide.

It's a textwall monster and not everything in it sounds sensible (hence the Non Meta in the title) but it actually works if you get into the right frame of mind.
Yup. I said the right frame of mind not once you aquire the skills.

With these tactics you must stay on the move constantly and stay unpredictable at all times.
You need to have good instant decision making skills and be able to somewhat know where the enemy is likely to go and where they will most likely not go.

Needless to say you need to know each map and the most popular meta tactics so you can take advantage of the meta tactics weaknesses.
Another thing to keep in mind is that with all that moving about you will dish out less damage per minute than more aggressive players, but in return your likely to take less damage yourself.

I'll go out on a limb and say you can ignore what Appogee says in post #11 about you costing your team the match because you didn't go with the team.
If your reading this Appogee and want to say that i'm giving bad advice....

Spoiler

i fight well enough to fight in the same matches you're in. Seen you out there plenty of times.
i'm fighting well enough to do 500-600 damage per match without really being surprised about it.
250-300 matchscore is normal too. Sometimes i do better but 1K damage seems to be my magical limit so there are definitivly those that are better than me.

How can you just ignore his advice N0D? That's easily explained.

Imagine your in a light mech and stay with your team like Appogee wants you to. Whenever you dart out of cover to shoot the enemy they are allready looking in your general direction because the majority of your team is around you.
They know where your team is and they concentrate on that area.
So you have the same chances of getting shot when your out of cover as any of your teammates.
A light mech cannot trade hits back and forth with a mech several times it's weight. That's something a heavy or assault can however.

But if you get on the enemy teams flank or rear area you can shoot them from an angle where they are much less likely to respond fast.
But if they will most likely send a light mech or two your way. So you got 2 choices-
1) Relocate back towards your teammates before the lights have a chance at shooting you to bits and hope those lights get roasted by your team.
2) Relocate in a direction those lights will not expect. But remember to relocate far enough to stay somewhat unpredicable.
If you just shoot from every good location you come across those light mechs will hunt you down real quick and the heavier mechs will anticipate your travelroute.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 31 August 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

Ok....so that is not to say staying with your team when in a lightly armored mech is without advantages.
You get protection from lights and you can stay behind your team to support them from afar with long range weapons.
But as long as you stay near them the enemy fill be looking in your general direction....bad for those with little armor.

[N0D]

This all still leaves me quite confused. Almost everyone here makes certain sense but all advices given are too situational... well, heck, i know that there are no universal truth, except "42", but still.
Luscious Dan, Kmieciu, you have my sincerest thanks for trying to be specific about builds... although lights aren't really my thing, and after i read all those comments, i sort of started to want to fiddle with some C-LPL's. Any advice on clan mech that could boat some?
On the joke side: this. Wub-wub-wub...