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Suggestion : Give Is Clan Tech And Clans Is Tech


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#1 Skarlock

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 10:00 PM

Title says it all. Now, let me preface this with the fact that the entire existence of quirks was to give IS mechs a fighting chance against clan mechs. Clans were literally obliterating IS mechs wholesale before quirks, so PGI did a bunch of nerfs to clan tech, but they weren't enough. They added ghost heat, they did this, they tuned that, it didn't matter, clans still dominated. Then they introduced quirks, and they were almost ALL offense based, giving competitive guns (and in some cases way overpowered guns) to IS mechs. So now PGI wants to remove the quirks, and has basically no real known plan to level the offensive potential playing field.

PGI, please listen. if you want the offensive quirks to go away, yet still have something resembling balance between IS and Clans, then fine, equal the playing field by giving IS and Clans access to all weapon systems and all engines. So any IS mech can take a clan weapon and any clan mech can take an IS weapon. Let IS mechs take clan XL engines. Let IS mechs have reduced space ferro and endo, and more tonnage saving ferro just like the clans, but let them still be battle mechs, not omni mechs, and have hard locked hard points per location. Let IS mechs take smaller, 2 slot double heat sinks. This creates a much more balanced and easier to manage playing field over all.

The clans are still distinct in that they have omnipods, and much more custom weapon load outs, giving them greater offensive weapon flexibility. On the other hand, IS mechs would have much more space and weight tuning flexibility, allowing them to utilize it better than the clans, and much greater fine tuning of jump jets and engine, allowing them to take either more speed and less guns or less speed and more guns than clan mechs. This is a vastly easier to manage dynamic of space and tonnage efficiency vs. hardpoint flexibility than the current system we have, and would re-invigorate the playerbase as they now have way more options to choose from.

Now, optional changes such as nerfing lasers and gauss, beefing SRMs or UACs or or whatever would affect both sides equally no matter what is done. Maybe one weapon system would be too weak or too strong, but guess what, now you're not gimping one half of the equation in CW or IS or Clan purists, because they have access to all the same things. This is overall improvement and easier to manage than trying to compensate for clan weapon superiority by quirking mechs. It would also help increase TTK because IS mechs wouldn't have to sacrifice speed and torso twisting to compete in the guns department with clan mechs by taking an IS XL engine, and would enjoy the same toughness of clan mechs if they choose to do so.

#2 Goombah

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 11:38 PM

Having fewer or more customization options doesn't balance the two factions. Each mech either has competitive builds or does not.

However, they don't need to nerf anything. They just need to give all IS mechs bonus armor on the magnitude of about +200 ct and +150 on each side torso or more. Then clan tech can be clan tech and IS mechs can use their ****** overweight short ranged gear just fine.

#3 Skarlock

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 11:52 PM

View PostGoombah, on 15 September 2015 - 11:38 PM, said:

Having fewer or more customization options doesn't balance the two factions. Each mech either has competitive builds or does not.

However, they don't need to nerf anything. They just need to give all IS mechs bonus armor on the magnitude of about +200 ct and +150 on each side torso or more. Then clan tech can be clan tech and IS mechs can use their ****** overweight short ranged gear just fine.


If you allow IS mechs to use clan tech, all of a sudden I promise you, IS mechs will have far far more competitive builds than before. Also you don't need to add 200 structure and 150 armor to side torsos if you simply even out the guns.

People have grown tired of the laser + gauss meta and want it to change, and the only way that will change is if you change the base weapons. You can add all the armor and structure you want to any mechs you like, it won't make gauss and lasers any less effective at destroying that armor and structure.

The primary goal of PGI through this change is to address two things. One, they want time to kill on mechs to be higher. That is, they want mechs to not die so fast. Two, they want to add more depth to the game through the infotech stuff. My post addresses time to kill only, not the infotech stuff. My whole point is it's far more difficult to balance the game through their approach than through my approach.

#4 Noth

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Posted 15 September 2015 - 11:55 PM

View PostSkarlock, on 15 September 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:


If you allow IS mechs to use clan tech, all of a sudden I promise you, IS mechs will have far far more competitive builds than before. Also you don't need to add 200 structure and 150 armor to side torsos if you simply even out the guns.

People have grown tired of the laser + gauss meta and want it to change, and the only way that will change is if you change the base weapons. You can add all the armor and structure you want to any mechs you like, it won't make gauss and lasers any less effective at destroying that armor and structure.

The primary goal of PGI through this change is to address two things. One, they want time to kill on mechs to be higher. That is, they want mechs to not die so fast. Two, they want to add more depth to the game through the infotech stuff. My post addresses time to kill only, not the infotech stuff. My whole point is it's far more difficult to balance the game through their approach than through my approach.


With your suggestion, you may as well just get rid of IS tech. It isn't a proper fix. It is lazy. I like that PGI isn't just going for the lazy easy fix on it.

#5 Thorqemada

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 04:46 AM

Clans would be shocked what you can do with their tech to IS Mechs...

I could switch to Clan XL Engines instead of IS Std, have 50% more Heatsinks, grab an UAC20 for my AC10 and even it out with CERML and change all LRM10 to CLRM20...etc...

#6 Draq Creage

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 05:31 AM

View PostThorqemada, on 16 September 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Clans would be shocked what you can do with their tech to IS Mechs...

I could switch to Clan XL Engines instead of IS Std, have 50% more Heatsinks, grab an UAC20 for my AC10 and even it out with CERML and change all LRM10 to CLRM20...etc...



We can't change engine sizes if IS could us clan xls and what ever size engine they want clan would be useless and besides clan ballistics are a joke ask anyone. IS have better ballistics hands down I know I have 50 plus IS mech and can tear apart any clan ballistic boat with my 4 u ac5 King or the 3 ac 10 cataphract or a jaeger 3uac5 or so on. Pgi has there hands full figuring out balance but +200 ct armor crap is just stupid IS would be unbeatable look at some of there c w teams they are amazing if people would play as a team in this team based game it would fix everything

Edited by Draq Creage, 16 September 2015 - 05:43 AM.


#7 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 06:03 AM

Idiocy. completely removes and difference between clan and is mechs apart from skin, and makes IS completely dominant because full customisation is FAR more valuable than Omnitech (you can argue that, but youll be wrong). Also IS mechs tend to have better geometry..

Nothing in this game would stand a snowballs chance in a supernova against a BNC-3M with C-XL, C-ES, C-FF, C-DHS and 5x IS-LPL, given those crazy high weapon mounts.

#8 Draq Creage

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 06:13 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 16 September 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

Idiocy. completely removes and difference between clan and is mechs apart from skin, and makes IS completely dominant because full customisation is FAR more valuable than Omnitech (you can argue that, but youll be wrong). Also IS mechs tend to have better geometry..

Nothing in this game would stand a snowballs chance in a supernova against a BNC-3M with C-XL, C-ES, C-FF, C-DHS and 5x IS-LPL, given those crazy high weapon mounts.



What he said:) ps bmmu are my favorite IS cw people of all time ask them what they would do with an 200 extra armor on there cw mechs

#9 Der BierVampiR

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 06:19 AM

Well at least PGI could maybe set up a PTS where we could test this out - Skarlocks idea sounds interesting and test servers are made after all for testing purpose i assume.
The balance between the IS and the Clans is broken since the clanmechs first appeared in MWO - a few testing rounds with clan tech on IS-mechs can`t really do any harm to MWO.

#10 Thorqemada

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 06:26 AM

View PostDraq Creage, on 16 September 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

We can't change engine sizes


IS/Clan Tech interchange would mean free Engine Choice in the given Engine Size Window. ;)

A Clan UAC20 shots 8 projectiles of 5 damage most of the time - i dont see where that is inferior...

#11 Tarogato

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 06:26 AM

Yeah, sure, let's just remove IS tech from the game entirely because nobody will use it. That's basically what we're suggesting here.

#12 Draq Creage

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 06:32 AM

Dire wolf with 6 IS uac5... mauler with dual is ac 20 and clan lasers and a bunch of other way over powered builds if u see people crying now just wait to see how many would cry then

#13 Der BierVampiR

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 06:37 AM

View PostDraq Creage, on 16 September 2015 - 06:32 AM, said:

Dire wolf with 6 IS uac5... mauler with dual is ac 20 and clan lasers and a bunch of other way over powered builds if u see people crying now just wait to see how many would cry then


Maybe, but that would be something we could find out finally on a testserver.

#14 Mystere

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 06:39 AM

Why do people insist on turning MWO into a generic shooter? <smh>

#15 Draq Creage

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 06:50 AM

I think it would be fun to have an option to use clan|IS weapons together in private matches but not in the competitive modes there would be so many instapopping moments on cw and pub drops because everyone would take the 1 hit killer mechs and it would not take any skill to beat the other team it would be like call of duty running around getting kills like Rambo

View PostTarogato, on 16 September 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

Yeah, sure, let's just remove IS tech from the game entirely because nobody will use it. That's basically what we're suggesting here.


So u don't like IS Ballistics?

#16 Tarogato

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 07:57 AM

View PostDraq Creage, on 16 September 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

So u don't like IS Ballistics?


IS AC/20 weighs 14 tons and requires 10 slots. It deals 5.00 dps.
Clan LBX/20 weights 12 tons and requires 9 slots. It deals 5.00 dps.
Clan UAC/20 weights 12 tons and requires 9 slots. It deals 8.52 dps.

IS Gauss weighs 15 tons and requires 7 slots.
Clan Gauss weighs 12 tons and requires 6 slots.



I'd wager that people would convert their Boomjagers and Boomkrabs into dual UAC/20 for the double punch. The BNC-3E would probably go from triple AC/5 to quad cUAC/5. The KGC would switch to quad UAC/5 and more backups. The Jager could now easily mount quad UAC/5. The Atlas would now carry a UAC/20. There would basically be no reason to ever use IS weapons.

#17 Tesunie

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 08:21 AM

Side note:

Ghost heat was added into the game well before Clans were even considered as being introduced (at least in any official capacity). Ghost heat was to help curb the alpha meta from before, such as the quad to hex PPC Stalkers (which could one shot most mechs, even if they clipped an arm or leg).


As far as giving everything to everyone, then it becomes an arms race to see whom can get the most clan stuff on their mechs. It was that way in every MW game before (including TT). There would be no reason for IS FF or Endo. Why would you consider taking IS DHS when you could take CDHS? For the most part, even clan weapons would be the only real option, better range and damage most times at reduced crits and weight savings. Clan Xl over IS XL? Never touch the IS XLs again, and probably never use the Std engines either at that point.


As for lore on sharing weapons and equipment, Clan stuff was typically in an Omni format. That format only worked for other Omni mechs. It was not compatible (without a lot of work) with standard mech technology. (Unless you are talking about salvaged material from a IIC variant, which then would be clan tech already in standard format.)

PGI is trying to do several things here:
- Prevent the arms race to clan tech (which happened in every other MW related game).
- Appease lore reasons that the tech often times did not mix.
- Balance Clan vs IS tech, so no one tech is/should be better over another. (Which also trying to balance similar mechs power to each other, such as making all 75 ton mechs basically even standing with each other.)


I personally would rather not see clan and IS tech mix at this time. Then again, this is my opinion.

#18 Der BierVampiR

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 10:26 AM

View PostTesunie, on 16 September 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

- Balance Clan vs IS tech, so no one tech is/should be better over another. (Which also trying to balance similar mechs power to each other, such as making all 75 ton mechs basically even standing with each other.)


I would love to see that happen. But sadly PGIs attempts to do this were not very successfull yet.

#19 cSand

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 10:51 AM

terrible thread


but you can buy IIC mechs soon enough

View PostTarogato, on 16 September 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

IS AC/20 weighs 14 tons and requires 10 slots. It deals 5.00 dps.
Clan LBX/20 weights 12 tons and requires 9 slots. It deals 5.00 dps.
Clan UAC/20 weights 12 tons and requires 9 slots. It deals 8.52 dps.

IS Gauss weighs 15 tons and requires 7 slots.
Clan Gauss weighs 12 tons and requires 6 slots.



I'd wager that people would convert their Boomjagers and Boomkrabs into dual UAC/20 for the double punch. The BNC-3E would probably go from triple AC/5 to quad cUAC/5. The KGC would switch to quad UAC/5 and more backups. The Jager could now easily mount quad UAC/5. The Atlas would now carry a UAC/20. There would basically be no reason to ever use IS weapons.

mm
I dunno bout that.

I love the idea of the rapid fire AC like the clans have, but that one giant hammer hit from an AC20 is pretty sweet.

#20 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 16 September 2015 - 03:52 PM

do people realize that Clan ACs fire in bursts,
ya you could run dual C-UAC20 but your range for hitting with everything wouldnt be as much,
in the end the Secondary Fire, +Jam Chance, +Burst fire, isnt effective as you think it will be,

i will however be Equipping IS-ML to my Nova, as well as IS-PPCs to my WarHawk,
lets see how you deal with that PulseDire(6IS-LPL) especially with its fire 3 no GhostHeat,





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