90 replies to this topic

[Suzumiya Haruhi no Kerensky]

all er large lasers are garbage

[IraqiWalker]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 26 September 2015 - 11:28 PM, said:

Certain IS mechs with +25% energy range quirks can boat ER-LL out to 911m effective range, putting 3ERLL@ 27 damage vs 2 clan ERLL at 22 damage at 844m. Also accounting for burn duration (and burn duration quirks), as well as cooldown quirks and the IS will win the range trade if you bring a proper range deck.

WVR 6K
TDR5SS (can boost ERLL range)
TDR5S
BLR-1S (Can boost ERLL range)


Those are the four viable mechs that can boost LARGE LASER range to 25%. There is only one IS mech that actually boosts ERLL range, and it's only by 10%, that's the ZEU-9S. Unless you're going to count Locusts, in which case, that's it's own condemnation. Or the Grid Iron, which will be running Gauss, instead of ERLLs.

Think about it. We're talking about 4 very heavily quirked mechs, that can barely match Clan range.

We're talking about 25% range increase to LLs, not even ERLLs. 25% of 900 meters is 1125 meters MAX range, 562.5 effective range. that means at 911 meters, they are doing all of 5.4 ish damage per LL.


The two effective mechs at doing ERLLs are the BLR-1S, and the TDR-5SS. The former is 85 tons, and the latter is 65 tons and almost always run with MPLs. So in effect, the IS has only ONE viable mech that can boost ERLLs by 25%, so it can touch the stock C-ERLLs on literally every clan mech.

Basically, to run an effective ranged deck, I have to run 4 specific mechs. While a clan long range deck can use virtually any mech they want. You can't even argue hardpoint disadvantage, because we have clan omnis that have amazing high hardpoints: TBR, EBJ, SCR, and ACH.

You can easily run a triple EBJ + ACH (you have 45 free tons to play with, and the Cheetah has amazing ST energy hardpoints.)

Heat, and burn time are the only issues with C-ERLLs, and heat is almost irrelevant at range.

So yes, the IS has 2 viable mechs to do ERLLs on them to match clan range. Every clan omni has the superior range, stock.



Edit: For the record, I'm not saying IS can't compete, or even win. Just stating the simple fact that clans have the advantage, more than people think.

EDIT2: fixed some math

Edited by IraqiWalker, 27 September 2015 - 01:24 AM.

[anonymous161]

Voro117, on 17 September 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

There's no balance at all or real strategy to it.
You have an even number of clan mechs vs the same number and tonnage of inner sphere mechs
If your inner sphere and attacking good luck winning with a team of random people.

Because not only are you fighting mechs with longer range weapons that do more damage, so meaning that you get worn down before your even in firing range. Then you have turrets everywhere inside the base.
Even as a clan attacking force your hard pressed to be able to win when your bottle necked so tight. Just a perfect killzone.


If I ever saw this setup in a total war game I'd pull back my forces and pillage surrounding country or try to starve them out, because there's no way I'd be able to take a castle by storming just the front gates without enough bodies to be able to win by weight of numbers

Congrats your first post ever is totally worthless.

NEXT!!!

[anonymous161]

IraqiWalker, on 27 September 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

WVR 6K
TDR5SS (can boost ERLL range)
TDR5S
BLR-1S (Can boost ERLL range)


Those are the four viable mechs that can boost LARGE LASER range to 25%. There is only one IS mech that actually boosts ERLL range, and it's only by 10%, that's the ZEU-9S. Unless you're going to count Locusts, in which case, that's it's own condemnation. Or the Grid Iron, which will be running Gauss, instead of ERLLs.

Think about it. We're talking about 4 very heavily quirked mechs, that can barely match Clan range.

We're talking about 25% range increase to LLs, not even ERLLs. 25% of 900 meters is 1125 meters MAX range, 562.5 effective range. that means at 911 meters, they are doing all of 1.8 damage per LL.

The two effective mechs at doing ERLLs are the BLR-1S, and the TDR-5SS. The former is 85 tons, and the latter is 65 tons and almost always run with MPLs. So in effect, the IS has only ONE viable mech that can boost ERLLs by 25%, so it can touch the stock C-ERLLs on literally every clan mech.

Basically, to run an effective ranged deck, I have to run 4 specific mechs. While a clan long range deck can use virtually any mech they want. You can't even argue hardpoint disadvantage, because we have clan omnis that have amazing high hardpoints: TBR, EBJ, SCR, and ACH.

You can easily run a triple EBJ + ACH (you have 45 free tons to play with, and the Cheetah has amazing ST energy hardpoints.)

Heat, and burn time are the only issues with C-ERLLs, and heat is almost irrelevant at range.

So yes, the IS has 4 viable mechs to do ERLLs on them to match clan range. Every clan omni has the superior range, stock.

I cant remember the last time I got killed by a clan mech from longe range with er ll's...You are just making **** up at this point, the majority of mechs in a battle are fighting at medium range for the most part it hardly matters IS very short beam duration is a huge advantage and I have both clan and IS mechs and I choose IS mechs over just about all clan mechs, and I frankly hate the IS mechs they got no real art to them just ugly ****.

[IraqiWalker]

Darth Bane001, on 27 September 2015 - 01:25 AM, said:

I cant remember the last time I got killed by a clan mech from longe range with er ll's...You are just making **** up at this point, the majority of mechs in a battle are fighting at medium range for the most part it hardly matters IS very short beam duration is a huge advantage and I have both clan and IS mechs and I choose IS mechs over just about all clan mechs, and I frankly hate the IS mechs they got no real art to them just ugly ****.

You might want to play against clan mechs to get shot by them.

If you want, I can go through every single weapon system, and show you exactly where you went wrong. It's not difficult really.

The balance between IS and clan is getting very close, but we're talking CW here, and last I checked, most of the firefights happen way past 600 meters (medium range ends at 500 meters). Especially the initial ones that can win you the game, because you get to melt 8+ mechs before you even close distance.

I KNOW you're a good player, so I don't need to explain to you how to play a long range game, and win at a long range game. Or even explain to you how having an initial advantage of 8-0 can be huge.

By the way, your post doesn't refute my point. You're saying that IS needs to get close to win, close by definition means NOT LONG range.

Saying the IS can win the long range game by playing the short range game is ... well, I don't really need to describe it, just re-read that statement.

[Triordinant]

IraqiWalker, on 27 September 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

For the record, I'm not saying IS can't compete, or even win. Just stating the simple fact that clans have the advantage, more than people think.

This has been obvious for some time.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

1. Get a team.
2. Learn the maps.
3. Use the correct loadouts on the fitting map according to your teamtactic.
4. Get a strong teamleader
5. Use Teamspeak
6. Train tactics.
7. Know your enemy. Their tactics and their loadouts.
8. Learn the Hotspots and best positions for attack defence.
9. Train your team.
10. Focus fire and learn to wait at chokepoints.

Go out and stomp the enemy to get a lot of C Bills and LPs.
Get bored of stomping baby seals.

Search for worthy enemys.

Call them to have a good fight.

Get riped by strong teams..start at point 1 again.....
Win against stong teams....
Make over 1000dmg and 4 kills every CW game?
Welcome at -BO-..

[mercenarie]

Marc von der Heide, on 27 September 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

6. Train tactics.
7. Know your enemy. Their tactics and their loadouts.

^

[B0oN]

Marc, stop dealing in truths...they don´t really count in here ^^

Other than that :
Has any of you driven a 4ERL TDR/BLR as of lately ? I did, with gusto, because 911m full damage range speak their own language, rangewise .
No amount of TC can outrange THAT, not even a 3ERL+TC7 HBR (870m full damage range) .
Combined with the way lower beamdurations on IS lasers this gives the well-educated mechpilot enough range to go sniping against the "oh-so-OP-Clans" with a quite distinct advantage .

Add in ghostheatless 7MPL TDR´s for close-range potection to your snipers or for full out Tyranid-rushing and you´re on the way to having a very laid-back(balance stllislopsided as all hell, but hey, it´s PGI) game, all being counted and weighed (and oh yes, beforeI forget, last time I´ve been looking IS still had way more high-mounted hardpoints, givin´ the holy clan trinity a run for it´s "OP-ness").

Soooooo, all in all IS ain´t standing that bad, stop telling halftruths already, it makes one look desperate, thanks .

[Kinski Orlawisch]

@Rad Hanzo: Yes..those mechs are part of our dropdecks. I run atm 2 7MPL 5SS and one 3 ERLL 5SS or an 9SE with 3 LPL.
Additional a Wolverine with 2 AC5 or a Griffin with ECM.
The Battelmaster is mainly used by our dropleader sometimes.

[IraqiWalker]

Triordinant, on 27 September 2015 - 02:21 AM, said:

This has been obvious for some time.

Yet some people still either deny it, or have a hard time understanding/accepting it.

[Triordinant]

IraqiWalker, on 27 September 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

Yet some people still either deny it, or have a hard time understanding/accepting it.

Many of them like to fool themselves into thinking they're not using a crutch.

[IraqiWalker]

Triordinant, on 27 September 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

Many of them like to fool themselves into thinking they're not using a crutch.

In all fairness, sometimes it's because they haven't paid attention to every minute change to the quirks, which they shouldn't be blamed for, but at the same time, people should check information regularly.

[NocturnalBeast]

IraqiWalker, on 26 September 2015 - 11:18 PM, said:

I only play clans in the public queue. So I can't say I have.

Those 3 LLs don't have the range of the C-ERLLs, and EBJs, and TBRs with the high energy mounts can easily match them in count, while out-ranging them, and possibly even out-damaging them. Same with the SCR. So a 12 v 12 LL team on both ends will be somewhat even, with maybe a slight advantage to the clans if they keep it far away, or to the IS, if they can close distance. However, when they close distance that's no longer a long range fight, now is it?

I have played CW as IS and as CLAN and the only reason that we won as CLANS was that we were using coms and in a 12 man group who were used to dropping together while the IS teams were usually comprised of smaller groups and pugs. When dropping as CLANS against organized IS units, the games were much closer, with the IS units usually coming out ahead (this was based on games I played during the Tukayyid event).

[B0oN]

Ed has a very valid point there, most of the CW games done by clan 12 man vs. IS 12 man are really close and it´s quite some hard work to win as clan against some of the IS-teams out there, which makes for awesome, high-tension games whose balance hangs by the slenderest of threads .

[NocturnalBeast]

Rad Hanzo, on 29 September 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

Ed has a very valid point there, most of the CW games done by clan 12 man vs. IS 12 man are really close and it´s quite some hard work to win as clan against some of the IS-teams out there, which makes for awesome, high-tension games whose balance hangs by the slenderest of threads .

The problem with CW currently is that most of the Top-Tier merc units want to be on the winning team and since they can fairly easily switch between IS and Clans, they end up carrying whichever faction they play for.

[Xbwalker]

From the FW games I have played (all PUGs, All lost), I have found the problem is not with mechs. It is the teams and lack of teamwork/skill. I played one last night where we actually did fairly well because the majority of the team was willing to work together even though we were all random joiners. The key really is teamwork. Sure, arguments can be made from both sides for and against the other but the key has always been a team that is willing to work together and follows orders.

[Dawnstealer]

IraqiWalker, on 25 September 2015 - 10:30 PM, said:

Most of your post is fine. Except for that silly, and almost completely wrong bit about IS winning the long range fight.

No kidding: something I have to say over and over and over in CW PUG drops (and even team drops with newer teammembers) is: "DO NOT TRADE SHOTS WITH THE CLANS AT RANGE."

Don't do it. You'll lose. Everything the Clans have is longer range than it's IS counterpart. With quirks, a few specific mechs have an edge, but its minor and the benefit of your one mech poking at the extreme edge of effectiveness of your ERLL isn't going to match up with all 12 Clan mechs you're facing poking back with theirs.

[Surn]

I play inner sphere mostly in cw, and he is correct that is has better extreme range weapons...it is actually one of two advantages that we caN work with... Dawnstealer, you have fallen for a common misunderstanding. IS has few advantages and by combining them effective squad tactics emerge.

Edited by MechregSurn, 01 October 2015 - 09:44 AM.

[Surn]

The Zeus 9s at 80tons with up to 5 erll +20% range is amazing on boreal and hellbore. Put 3 in your arm, one center torso and one side torso.

Edited by MechregSurn, 01 October 2015 - 09:39 AM.