8 replies to this topic

[Chados]

...I've been thinking about this, since I've been into Victors lately. Feel free to shout me down if I'm all wet here.

I've noticed that most IS heavy mechs run alphas in the mid 30s. I'm not talking Clans, their heavy 'mechs might as well be 90+ ton equivalent to IS in protection and firepower. But IS units like the Orions and Jägers often have firepower in the 30s to low 40s. And they have front end armor values in the 60s, maybe 70. They have speed around 70kph on average and that's considered acceptable.

I've been thinking of my Victors as exalted heavies and playing them in the same kind of close support role. They have the same 75ish kph speed, jets for maneuver options, the same gross firepower, but heavy guns and more armor. So, in solo queue I back KGCs, Banshees, and Atlai, or more often TBRs or EXEs or DWs, that are leading a push and support them by getting on their flank in the firing line and taking on their targets and popping in an AC20 or LPL when I can and watching their backs for someone trying to get in on them from behind. The Victor's speed, jets, and extra protection over say, a Quickdraw or Jägermech, lets me get to cover if I overextend or if I lose the 90/100 tonner I'm backing, and live a little longer. Plus, I don't bring a lot of guns but the ones I do bring are the biggest in the IS arsenal-if I hit, it's for 10 damage minimum (AC10s) and often for 20 or better (AC20 or 2xLPL fired together). If I try to lead a push like a KGC or Clan heavy, I go down like a paper house in a firestorm. But when I play my supporting role, I can rack up as much as 500 damage and 8-9 assists in a good match, and I'm often right there at the very end-and my side wins as often as it loses. I even solo-dueled a TBR in the Viridian Bog, in a Dragon Slayer armed with AC10 and 2xLPL and wore him out.

Reckon this is the role of today's IS 80-85 ton assault 'mech? Basically, the new heavy? That old saw about the Steiner recon lance seems to have a grain of truth in it. The old days of the poptart king are dead, and the VTR and AWS are no longer the meta...they're the anti-meta. But should they be re-thought for a supporting role in the *new* meta?

[Spare Parts Bin]

Sounds well thought out. Kill assists pay almost as well as Kills so get as many as possible. I would not mind running with your Victor in my Ebon Jaguar or maybe in December a Highlander II-C.

[Chados]

You're seeing exactly what I'm getting at.

I think that the line between "assault" and "heavy" is not as well defined as it perhaps used to be. An IS 80-85 ton 'mech isn't going to be able to rule the battlefield like it did pre-Invasion. That's just the way it is. There is a new paradigm out there in the 3052 battle space.

But with the rise of energy power-heavies like the Black Knight (which is better than a lot of pundits are giving it credit for, if what I've seen spectating is any yardstick-they can boat tons of lasers) and most of the Clan heavies, and the Dire Wolf being the ubiquitous battleship out there, I see a change in strategies possible. Maybe not in CW, but in the regular queues where Clan and IS often fight together, it's a new world where heavy 'mechs fill the classic assault role...and outmoded assaults can be relevant doing what heavy 'mechs traditionally have done. There isn't going to be a lot of difference between the Marauder and the Victor, they will have similar protection and similar loadouts. If the MAD has better hit boxes, that will make the difference, but capabilities-wise, there's not a lot of space between IS light assaults and their high-end heavies. Plus, the IS 80/85 tonners can go 1v1 with Clan heavies and have a chance to win the fight because of the 80 tonner's better armor over an IS heavy, where the pilot in an IS heavy has to be really good to do the same.

[SerDiesalot]

What you're describing is exactly what I've been doing (with lots of success) in my Warhawk Prime (4 LPL).

I don't last long if I have to lead pushes against the enemies assault lance but when I'm supporting a Direwolf or Atlas I can rack up big numbers.

It got most of the 400 point tier 2 scores in the recent event for me.

[Luscious Dan]

The Victor definitely has issues. It doesn't quite seem to work well with STD engine (too slow), XL (too fragile), energy weapons (not enough hardpoints for spamming small lasers, and too hot if you run 2-3 big energy weapons), or ballistics (one low-slung location and often few other hardpoints on that same right side of the body to make a good asymmetric build). Oh, and it's bloody huge.

The concept art for the Victor is great, but it has some major playability issues IMO. The Public Test Server quirk pass recently also gave it -30% to its turning ability. Felt like a drunk cruise ship captain steering that thing. Good on you for making this mech work for you. For me, it's one of my nostalgic favorites but I rock the Thunderbolt for my IS heavy of choice. With weapon quirks and plentiful energy hard points they are just so much better IMO. They can even take ballistics in the left arm since some of the stock variants pack machine guns! The Zeus is probably better in most objective measures than the Victor, as well. Love that energy hard point in the CT, and the armor quirks.

Anyway, I do agree that the Victor can theoretically have a good supporting role, as long as you have some scary 100-tonners to attract attention. Similar to the Executioner, really. I like my Koala with dual UAC5 and a handful of small/medium lasers, which you can sorta replicate with the Dragon Slayer or whichever champion variant came with dual UAC5. But with literally tons less armor and no MASC for panic-moonwalking out of trouble...

The chassis would benefit greatly from a visual/scaling pass and movement quirks, to make up for raw offensive and defensive deficiencies.

Edited by Luscious Dan, 23 September 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Nice to read - really reminds me to dust of my Vicis.

Chados, on 23 September 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Reckon this is the role of today's IS 80-85 ton assault 'mech? Basically, the new heavy? That old saw about the Steiner recon lance seems to have a grain of truth in it. The old days of the poptart king are dead, and the VTR and AWS are no longer the meta...they're the anti-meta. But should they be re-thought for a supporting role in the *new* meta?

Well somebody said - META is something that works well on every map and team (so it is the least common denominator).
When you run your Victor carefull enough (don't charge alone) - it should be more than capable to kill any "common" meta Mech - that is not run in a team of MetaMechs.

Depending of some "pushes" in the last time - the VTR still got some serious problems - most pushes don't connect - you have to run your own route to cross the last hundreds of meters. While others of your team fight and die you are running in cover into a distance where you can strike.
A prominent example Alpine - while half my team was dying i had to cross 500m to get to the next Mech - i killed it with a Alpha Strike in the rear section - but well - half my team was dead, and i was alone in a blob.

While i would think that my Zeus could take the beating - because its agile enough the VTR could not. You really have to use those jumpjets in combat (bunny hop a target - and hit his rear while he is shocked)
This is for the AC 20 VTRs.

The K and the DS don't cary a AC 20 - so you can mount better weapons for medium/long range - it was the DS were i did start to love the combination of ERPPC and AC 10 backed up by some short range weapons.
This time its as you did describe it - a support role - use the JJs to fire from multiple directions - (Poptart SRMs is great fun) and the AC 10 is better as her reputation.

Luscious Dan, on 23 September 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

The concept art for the Victor is great, but it has some major playability issues IMO. The Public Test Server quirk pass recently also gave it -30% to its turning ability. Felt like a drunk cruise ship captain steering that thing.

This would definitely kill the Victor all over again. I can only fear for my nimble Zeus.

Chados, on 23 September 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:

I think that the line between "assault" and "heavy" is not as well defined as it perhaps used to be. An IS 80-85 ton 'mech isn't going to be able to rule the battlefield like it did pre-Invasion. That's just the way it is. There is a new paradigm out there in the 3052 battle space.

The line between assault and heavy is the movement archetype -the Stalker is a slow heavy and the Hopper a mobile Assault.
I think it is really important to understand roles - and quirks that mirror that roles
The Victor is supposed to be a mobile Mech - it have to be quick on turning (maybe not so much twisting) acceleration/decelleration are also not very important - but it need a good turning value to use its jump jets offensive.
It should at least turn 180° with engaged JJs in a second - not 90° after 3sec burn.

The Zeus as its "prominent" rival is more for hit & run - so it need armor and speed - twisting with a good arc could be helpfull - but turning is important but its not a dog fighter - you should not be able to outturn a MadCat as i did lately.

The next 80t Mech the Awesome is designed as a sturdy assault plattform - it don't need to have those extra ordinary turn/twist speed and arc - this is a relict of Closed Beta when Awesomes were matched with Atlas Mechs.
a Awesome should have heat and armor quirks nothing else.

another poor 80t the Gargamel - it have to be a mix of all those Mechs - a decent hit & run Mech (A) with some extra agility for dogfights (C) and sometimes it have to stand its ground (B;P)

As you said the 85t Mech is almost in the same condition - you have the agile BattleMaster, the steadfast Stalker and the Warhawk between those extremes.

[Takashi Uchida]

Hardpoints is the name of the game I think.

The reason why the Stalker has stuck around is because, besides its favorable frontal profile, it has nice high mounts. It may not be the greatest at the moment but is still serviceable. I love playing Awesome but I hate playing Victors. A quick look at the mid-upper body level energy mounts of the Awesome and you think, "well that's not that much better than the arms of a Victor," but for me I feel a massive difference. Once upon a time when Jump Jets were jumpier, mechs like the VIctor, Highlander, and Cataphract could use the jumpsnipe/poptart mechanic to overcome their low hardpoints, but it isn't feasible anymore.

So I think this puts Victors in a hard place, even compared to maligned mechs like the Awesome. Even the Zeus, with its lower mounts at least gets some decent health bonuses to allow it to survive. Even the Awesome with its fatness, has a fantastic torso twist, a slim side profile, and at least a couple decently high energy mounts (plus an almighty head laser) that can make for a good pulse-laser build. And of course, the Battlemaster, pretty much as fat as the Awesome, has some extremely high energy mounts and potentially much better speed.

As far as roles
LRM supporter: Stalker, Battlemaster, and Awesome all have at least one variant that can do it at least ok. VIctors can't, because of awkwardly limited tube sizes (10/5/2, wtf?)

Long Range Direct Support: Same deal, Stalker and Battlemaster have high energy hardpoints for PPCs or Large Lasers. Awesome's not so high but still ok. Victors, too low and limited

Brawler: Stalker and Zeus are pretty good (Stalker has decent hitboxes, Zeus has HP quirks, most of the variants can get a least a couple SRM6s and lots of lasers. Awesome is a big target and not that great with SRMs but can have a mean low-time on target alpha with pulse lasers. Battlemaster similar to Awesome. VIctor: the only big advantages it has over those other mechs is this tonnage area is that the 9B and 9S can use AC20s (where only the Stalker-M can), and that it can use Jump jets to help spread damage. But again, with its gimped missile tubes and generally lower arms, it may have a hard time dealing with terrain and other mechs getting in the way.

That's the way I feel anyway. I have a mastered Victor-9S but struggle to break even with it both K/D and W/L. Yet I have a BLR-1S, Misery, and 3 Awesomes that I do pretty well in. It may come down to personal preference but I think the VIctor just had everything taken away from it that made it good (AC and PPC velocity, jump jet lift. This was once the most feared assault in the game next to the Highlander, but the efforts to get the game away from the poptart mechanic basically destroyed this mech (and can you believe, it actually had negative quirks for a period of time, talk about overkill),

Edited by Takashi Uchida, 23 September 2015 - 11:31 PM.

[Chados]

That's partly what I'm getting at. The changes to the old metamechs like the Victor pushed the community away from them because they no longer fit the mold of what players think "an assault mech" should be. But I ask the question: Should these old standbys get a new look for a different role?

I use the Victor as example because it is the assault 'mech I have the most seat time in. And I wonder if, because we can't pigeonhole it into its old role, that the chassis automatically is dismissed as "bad." Same goes for the Highlander, honestly. So I ask whether there is a new role for these old warriors, in a world where many IS heavy 'mechs have similar firepower and mobility...but not the protection of these old warhorses...and whether in the emerging dominance of 75 ton platforms taking over the traditional spearhead roles, whether these older, mobile platforms can be reborn as skirmishers and close supporters.

[Takashi Uchida]

I think it's possible. For example I have the Cataphract-3D. Not an assault, but was used very similarly to the Victor as a meta jump sniper. It can still be run as a brawler because you can put an AC20 in the higher torso mount, and lasers too. But it just doesn't have the effectiveness as the old AC5/PPC build. Unfortunately, the Thunderbolt with a bunch of pulse lasers fills the same brawler range role better.

Of course, I play sub-optimal builds all the time, but I need at least a couple mid to high level hardpoints to not get frustrated.