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The Old Battletech Mechs...worth Buying?


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#1 BuckshotSchell

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 06:12 AM

So I started playing battletech in the 80's when I was a kid and I love the old mechs from that time. Ive been playing MWO for about two weeks and I'm enjoying it, but was kind of bummed not to see some of my old favorites from battletech available. With the Marauder and Warhammer coming out though and seeing how most people are playing certain META types it got me wondering if these classic mechs will be worth spending the money for. I really may get the Warhammer pack just for the nostalgia anyway, but it would be even better if they were a good machine to use in game. I would love to see the Archer and wasp/stinger as well. So do yall feel the Mad, and WMR will be good in game mechs?

#2 jaxjace

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 06:23 AM

the warhammer unless it gets insane quirks will be DOA

The marauder will be about on par with a Black Knight, but will still be nothing compared to a TBR which the blacknight also is not matched up to. So unfortunately its also DOA

#3 Lujke85

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 06:59 AM

If you consider playing the tier 1/2 games, you might not be able to cope with a "non-meta" mech. But if you're just starting, and working your way up, I seriously don't think any mech in MWO is unplayable... I've had fun in every build and mech I've been in. I got the warhammer pack, and I'm looking forward to some PPC goodness!

#4 Sagedabluemage

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 07:14 AM

honeslty i think yer good for choosing ones u want to play with. i play every mech i own cuz they are just fun to me. most of the time i play something cuz im feeling derpy and others when i want to try something new. Granted yes some chassis configs and hit boxes are better than others becuse of scale and programming but its nothing downright degrading to play another one. i honeslty cant wait to get my packs for both but me i collect and play around the pug que most of the time. If you are lookin to be seroius start practicing on a team to be seroius. If you are looking to play and have fun go play and have fun. Been here since beta derping and imma keep on derping till it dies.

#5 BuckshotSchell

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Posted 23 October 2015 - 07:39 AM

Well I have a couple t-bolt built to meta and and will probably pick up and build someothers for meta. I really enjoy the CW because I like having objectives rather than just one off matches. Although they need some more mission types I'm CW. However like I said just for nostalgia I'd probably like pick up the hammer and/or Marauder. I think just for fun they'd be awesome and maybe I could find meta that would work well if the standards don't work.

#6 Nightshade24

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 02:44 AM

View PostBuckshotSchell, on 23 October 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

So I started playing battletech in the 80's when I was a kid and I love the old mechs from that time. Ive been playing MWO for about two weeks and I'm enjoying it, but was kind of bummed not to see some of my old favorites from battletech available. With the Marauder and Warhammer coming out though and seeing how most people are playing certain META types it got me wondering if these classic mechs will be worth spending the money for. I really may get the Warhammer pack just for the nostalgia anyway, but it would be even better if they were a good machine to use in game. I would love to see the Archer and wasp/stinger as well. So do yall feel the Mad, and WMR will be good in game mechs?



INDEX

1, Competetive / meta play, and what mechs you should do
-do what makes you happy and what you enjoy playing
2. Should you get the old mechs
-based on point 1, and you
3. Conclusion
4. Tl;Dr summary
=================================================
1.)
The thing with meta is it's personally a competitive construct build on cheese and peoples opinions and in this game the meta has shifted for nearly no reason. Sometimes the meta is changed for 3 months just because a certain mech got a 10% C-bill sale and everyone got it and realised how awesome it is. That kinda nearly happened recently as you can tell by the spammed number of Arctic Cheetahs, Firestarters, Spiders , cicadas, Wolfhounds, panthers, etc playing recentyl. I am getting 3-5 light mechs per match and before these multi releases there was barely 2 and now I am seeing people using streak boats to counter them- even in the meta tiers.

My main rule of thumb is that all mechs are good (well myst lynx questionable). If you enjoy a said mech and you like playing a certain play style rather than do a meta combo on the recent 1337 mech. Than you will make more c-bills, exp, and effect in that mech you love more than you would in some meta junk. This is evidence in some dedicated or passionate players who got into a easy tier 1 in random mechs such as the Atlas, Urbanmech, Commando, or the Summoner.
Even then, tier 1 doesn't mean you are good. Tiers (at least above 4) imply your ability to work as a team as PSR is not on- but highly influenced by win to lost ratio. This is why I consider tier 3 good as it's roughly 50/50 split. (In fact, that's nearly my win rate, both are in the well thousands and there is nearly only like 30 difference between the two) in group play tier 1 and 2 would imply you are in a good team to communicate with each other but in public matches tier 1's are usually on a very long term luck streak, is very inspirational to pugs, etc. tier 2 to 4 is more realistic for single play.

That aside. The reason why some people who are in comp that use a unifide meta across the broad is not because 99.95% of the mechs are ****, but if you look at some of the best meta units they refine there mech selection quite a lot even cutting away some crucial competitive mechs, Why? Because they are unifide in a configuration that best and easily helps each other to make sure all mechs do well in all situations and if 1 dies it isn't a big hole in the plan.

You can play your Atlas with a few LBX 10's, an LRM 20, and a few medium lasers and get tier 1 and do well in comp, but to work well in a group play, you need your team to work with you and not 'carry' you or work around you. If you find a unit or co ordinate in a way that makes it work you are just as devastating as a Timberwolf laser vomit or a thunderwub.
This is how some units have odd LRM mech builds but due to co ordination and use of TAG/ NARC/ UAV effectively they get some of the lowest death ratios and highest win rates possible. Not because LRM's are OP or UP, but because they worked together to accommodate that into their tactics.

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[skip here to skip the theory and mild philosphy of meta/ comp play and what is and isn't comp and what to do]

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TL;Dr at end of page.


2.)

With all that theory on Meta and competitive out of the way. Now time to look at Marauder, Warhammer, and other unseen/ reseen mechs that may be added...

Warhammer and Marauder may possibly be a meta favourite. The Marauder has high hardpoints for ballistic and is nearly a direct competitor to the Timberwolf possibly. While the Warhammer is like an IS version of hte Hellbringer which is a comp mech. It may not due to no ECM but it may possibly due to lots of high hardpoints and equal placement... However as stated above. If it's a mech yo ulike playing, and you enjoy it and nostelgic over it. You will do good in it. Dispite how others perform in it.

I do suggest picking these mechs up if you want to support the game and have fun... it may not be exactly like how it is in your childhood. But it is rather close I would imagine. I do not to any extent claim I am a very good player of a comp player. I can beat some known comp players in a 1 vs 1. I may be very good in public play. I may be the best in [x] builds, play style, or chassis. But comp? may is exagerated here... I do not think I am the best at anything. But stats do not really say I am at average or bellow it and some players do have respect for me... and mutual respect doesn't come from no where.
bah- now it sounds like I am boasting myself while trying to look humble but I may actually be humble and what-not... Point is. I personally enjoy playing many mechs with many configs. Some mechs having a lower alpha strike of 6 damage and I still walk away with 600 damage at times and 200-300 often. I may be to humble to think 200 or 300 damage is good if you are 'skilled' but I see that as corring 2-3 atlases / possibly killing them, or killing 3 banshes. Or disabling 6 mechs... which for 1 mech to kill 3, that's a ratio you can not argue with and in a group, the ratio and chances of succes increase with each enemy that dies where none of your guys dies/ is disabled. because 12 mechs shooting at 12 become 12 shooting at 8, shooting at 5, than 3. etc... [hence how some sealclubs can happen, even when you take 2 very good units together]

I should also mention the pack also is in high value of mech bays, premium time, cockpit items, etc... so even if it is the worst mech ever and even after practice that you hate it, you still got more than your monies worth even if you do not sale your c-bill variants.


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Skip here if you want to just listen to my final answer

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TL;Dr on end of page

3.)

So the answer is not really what others say. Rather it be "they are not good" or "they got poor hitboxes" before or after they are released or before or after someone haas played it or before or after they mastered it. Because it's really up to you how good a mech is and how you want to play it. I personally have no problem with this and neither do some people high up in the PSR. Rather it be group or single cue. I just hope that you remember that you should have fun with this game and that trying to get the best KDR or W/L ratio isn't what games are about. If competetive play is specifically what you want to focus on than I can not give you an answer. I got no power or control nor anyone here who can tell you which is a good mech or bad mech tomorrow or the next dya. there are many times the best mech in game became the worst, the worst became the best... best examples are the highlander and cataphract for good mechs turning very bad. And mechs like Thunderbolt and Hunchback who became the worst to the best. (ish). You may in the future regreat for not buying this "best heavy mech for the next 5 months"... you may regret that you are foolish to go for a meta course when it isn't your true path. Either way. It is mainly up to you... I can only help you in what these two mechs strengths will be and possible buidls rather it be stock+ or an extreme make over.

Just wish you have good luck on the battle field my friend o7

======================================================================

Skip here for Tl;Dr

======================================================================

Tl;Dr!
  • meta is a competetive social construct and technically there is no real truely good or bad mechs, it depends on you
  • if you have fun in a mech, enjoy playing it, etc. it will be far more better than a mech you do not enjoy playing, do not do well in, etc. dispite it being a meta mech
  • practice could help you perfect playing at a mech, if your first few days in x mech is bad, just keep it for a bit and try again some more, if that doesn't work, try again later.
  • meta changes sometimes spontaniously, rather it be due to a 10% c-bill sale or a new mech release. Investing to much on meta is nearly hte same as investing for every mech in this game, because that is what it will be in 2 years.
  • the mechs have the possibility to be very powerful, as do other unseen mechs
  • I am here to help if you need help with possibily build theory crafting
  • again, it's about you and not what others really say.


#7 Skarlock

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 03:26 AM

View PostBuckshotSchell, on 23 October 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

So do yall feel the Mad, and WMR will be good in game mechs?


I'm going to try and actually answer your question as opposed to simply replying with "play what you want cause FUN!" since that is not what you asked.

The real answer is : We really don't know. Why? Because we don't know the quirks, which are incredibly important in determining how good an IS mech is, we don't know for a hard fact what the models are going to look like and where the hard points will be, and there is a huge rebalance of the entire game looming on the horizon that has many unknown and undetermined changes coming up. This is the real answer, and unfortunately all PGI will give us until the week before the release date. Every pre-order is a straight up gamble at this point, but at only 20$ for the bare minimum to 55$ for the whole pack, it's not like you're betting the house with either of these packs compared to many other pre-orders.

On paper, as the game is right now, using only what very incomplete knowledge we have, in my opinion, the Marauder does not look so good, the Warhammer hero and ballistic variants look much better. Here is why.

The Marauder does not look good because of low slung arms and the reliance on using those arms to take decent firepower since most of your energy hard points are located there. Putting a gauss in the side torso means you have to choose between going standard engine, and being horribly slow, or risk dying to a single back side torso shot, resulting in your gauss exploding, and then taking out your side torso, and then taking YOU out. It's cataphract syndrome all over again. On the other hand you can do builds that use maybe an ac/10 or dual UAC/5s or even triple AC/5 I suppose, but those are awfully heavy, and without quirks, pretty lackluster compared to more heavily energy based builds. People will focus that right side torso, so it will be hard to use an XL build with this mech unless it has amazing hitboxes. The jump jets are super nice to have on a 75 ton mech which would make it much more usable than say the Orion, but without quirks, it just pales in comparison to what the Timber Wolf can do. *IF* on the off chance the mech does get great quirks and great hitboxes and more usable arm energy weapons, then it will be good or possibly great. That's a lot of ifs. Based on the quirks they gave the latest round of Inner Sphere mechs, I am extremely doubtful this will happen but I could be wrong.

The warhammer on the other hand has, at least in the concept art, at least two high mounted ballistic hard points in separate areas. This gives it much greater flexibility with an XL engine, and could do quite well with 2 or 3 AC/5s or UAC/5s, or even dual AC/10s or AC/20s. It would be like a better version of the Illya Muromets on the hero variant, or like a mini version of the Mauler if you will. You could still take an XL engine with most of these load outs (only AC/20s are a no-no). With the Warhammer you can strip arm armor to free up tonnage and still take significant energy weapon backups in the side torsos, you cannot do this with the marauder due to lack fo energy in the side torsos (1 arm stripped only, or all energy with no ballistics anywhere). Warhammer has humanoid geometry meaning you can shield with the arms, with the Marauder, it looks like you cannot. Again, this mech will definitely depend on quirks, and where the side torso ballistics are located, and probably can't use gauss effectively due to the same ballistic side torso issues, but I think two variants of this mech actually have some positive virtues just in where the weapons are located and the hard points it has, again, purely based on the *concept art*, which may or may not be like the actual final mech we get. If the mech is XL friendly with the hitboxes, you could have a fairly fast ballistic based build with energy backup weapons and a much more solid mech.

I know my answer depends on a lot of "ifs" and that's because I'm being 100% honest. Outside of perhaps PGI insiders, no one knows for sure if they will be amazing or terrible or anything in between.

Edited by Skarlock, 27 October 2015 - 03:40 AM.


#8 PeeWrinkle

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 04:20 PM

It is a tough question to answer. Since I have been playing the game it has changed quite a bit and I think it will continue to change.

Change has meant change in META and what mechs can run a so called META build. When I first started playing it was brawling only, then jump snipping, now it is range and high alphas. It will change again, so a META mech today might not be META tomorrow.

Take into account the quirk system, which will be overhauled again soon. They are working on it in beta and are trying to make each chassis and chassis variant be unique with their roll. So that will also change as well.

Lastly, and this is the group I fall into, can you play the current meta builds successfully. I know I can't, high alphas = hot mechs! I am terrible at managing ghost heat, so I don't run builds that generate it. I was also terrible at jump sniping so I did not do that one either.

My advice would be to figure out what weapons you like to use and how you like to use. Do you like to boat medium lasers, are you UAC cazy, etc.

Once you know what weapons you prefer and can play well find a mech that you can configure with those types of weapons.
I know that if vague and simple, so I will give a quick example. The Enforcer is a 50 ton medium. It is just average by META standards, but being player who does will with SRMs, Medium to Small Laser (Pulse as well), and AC's I perform very well in this chassis. All variants I can put some type of AC on and boat either MPL or ML. Two weapons that I am strong at playing, so I usually never drop into CW without one.

I also use Thunderbolts in CW, but not how most people do. I usually will stay away for ERPPC/PPC's in them. I will put 2-3 LL and boat out ML or SL on most of my builds because that is what I am good with.

Like I said that will not answer your question, and it does leave a lot of room for personal preference as well. Besides if all else fails just pick mechs that were your favorite in TT. You'll play them, even if they make you cry. My example of that is my Summoners. Loved them in TT and downright stink in them in MWO, even when I try to play to my strengths.

And that is the hardest part about picking a mech, you never know how it will really suite you till you are in it. And sadly trial mechs are not a good evaluation. Many mechs completely change after you configure them properly (most trials are very poorly configured and will not accurately portray how it will play). Don't forget leveling up your chassis skills. I have unlocked basics and double basics on some mechs and it completely changed my perception of them. The Grasshopper for example. I struggled on all variants unlocking double basics. Then once I did the mech felt very different and I started to perform much better in it.

To sum up: Meta will always change so if you get a mech just for that purpose you might be disappointed in a few months. And play to your strength!

Hope that helps.





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