173 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

Yet another blow for light mechs. The skill tree just gutted the hell out of us.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Mcgral18, on 03 November 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

2KM/s velocity, longest range in the game make it easiest to effectively use; Lasers still need to maintain a burn, but an argument can be made there.

As for Crit weapons, the MGs need 10/.72=~14(rounded up) Crits to destroy an item, to the single Crit the Gauss Rifle needs.

You have a TC1? You have a 49% Chance to Crit an item, to the 52% chance of a Machine Gun. If you get a TCVII, you have a 54% Chance to crit (but really, just take the TC1)

As well as the FLD Crit advantage; you hit 13 points of armour and break into Structure...guess what happens.
You deal FULL crit damage, destroying the item and get your +2.25 extra bonus damage.

You get a double Crit on a fully armoured cockpit with Dual Gauss(17-20+%), you instagib that mech, from 100% to dead in a single shot. Does that cockpit have even a single point of armour missing? Bam, 42-54% Chance to instantly kill him, as you only need a single Crit.

They should give it a sub-1 'critDamMult' to not let it be the best Crit Weapon in the game.

Oh I see, that's very interesting... thank you for the insight n.n I don't really pay that much attention to the fine details of the system... Sure, do that... hell, give it a 0 crit damage for all I care... just don't give it a 30%+ increase in cooldown >_>

Navid A1, on 03 November 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

I don't know when PGI is going to understand not to screw 10 other chassis' to balance 1 or 2.

with the new DHS values... what about the poor lynx?... cute fox and adder?... stuck with poordubs forever!

The heat CAPACITY has been reduced, but the RATE of cooling is still increased from the previous test server... which, they should probably have made clearer... So, while you can't fire 10 ERMLs without shutting down, you'll cool down and be able to shoot 8 ERMLs again more quickly. (Just arbitrary numbers here thrown out for example, having no relevance to ACTUAL numbers in game)

[FupDup]

Twilight Fenrir, on 03 November 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

Oh I see, that's very interesting... thank you for the insight n.n I don't really pay that much attention to the fine details of the system... Sure, do that... hell, give it a 0 crit damage for all I care... just don't give it a 30%+ increase in cooldown >_>

The heat CAPACITY has been reduced, but the RATE of cooling is still increased from the previous test server... which, they should probably have made clearer... So, while you can't fire 10 ERMLs without shutting down, you'll cool down and be able to shoot 8 ERMLs again more quickly. (Just arbitrary numbers here thrown out for example, having no relevance to ACTUAL numbers in game)

The dissipation boost was from 0.14 (live server) to 0.15. The capacity nerf is from 1.4 (live server) to 1.1. Speaking of which, the notes for PTS3 didn't specifically say that the 0.15 buff would even be carried over to this session...

The capacity reduction is proportionally much larger than the cooling rate boost.

[Y E O N N E]

Honestly, the single most effective nerf you could give Gauss that wouldn't compromise its ease of use is to have it generate non-trivial heat. If it spat back between 4 and 6 heat per gun, it suddenly doesn't sync so well with masses of lasers.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 03 November 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

The dissipation boost was from 0.14 (live server) to 0.15. The capacity nerf is from 1.4 (live server) to 1.1. Speaking of which, the notes for PTS3 didn't specifically say that the 0.15 buff would even be carried over to this session...

The capacity reduction is proportionally much larger than the cooling rate boost.

It would just be easier to stop the increase of capacity in the first place, and go full trudubs, and see what happens (maybe add a little capacity to IS DHS, since it takes 3 slots).

We'll see.

[Nightmare1]

I like most of it except for the skill tree nerfs. That seems unnecessary and heavy handed to me. At least they left Speed Tweak alone and decided to debut this on the PTS; I really hope that they come to their senses and decide against implementing these nerfs in the live game itself!

[Dakkss]

Once again, more complicated, convoluted nonsense instead of really simple balances like

Pinpoint damage problem: Introduce Reticle bob, weapon recoil and weapon impact physics and have torso weapons point straight.
Laser vomit problem: Reduce the heat cap by 30% and hot (~70%) mechs incur movement/HUD/accuracy/ammo explosion penalties.
Deathballing problem: Introduce Stackpoling (20% chance if killed by engine destruction) that incurs high heat and 15% spread damage across nearby mechs.

Y'know, things that have existed and been a staple of MechWarrior since MW3 in 1999.

Edited by Dak Darklighter, 03 November 2015 - 07:09 PM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

FupDup, on 03 November 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

The dissipation boost was from 0.14 (live server) to 0.15. The capacity nerf is from 1.4 (live server) to 1.1. Speaking of which, the notes for PTS3 didn't specifically say that the 0.15 buff would even be carried over to this session...

The capacity reduction is proportionally much larger than the cooling rate boost.

They did say it would carry over, though. "The changes featured in this Re-Balance PTS build upon the changes implemented in the last PTS" While it may be disproportionate... I think faster cooling is worth MUCH more than heat capacity. So... I wait to see what the actual results are... I was quite pleased with the values for the last PTS. I don't think this will impact it that much...

Yeonne Greene, on 03 November 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

Honestly, the single most effective nerf you could give Gauss that wouldn't compromise its ease of use is to have it generate non-trivial heat. If it spat back between 4 and 6 heat per gun, it suddenly doesn't sync so well with masses of lasers.

That doesn't sound like a bad idea... heck, it even makes sense from a scientific understanding of the weapon point of view... all those copper windings generate heat, just like an electric motor. Though, I really don't understand WHY the Gauss is still considered to be a problem? O_o I dunno... maybe it's just that I don't really bump into comp teams outside of fluke encounters in CW... So I don't see the organized terror they are inflicting... I like using them, but I don't dread dual-gauss Jaegers at all anymore o.o And I haven't seen a quad gauss Dire Wolf since the novelty wore off...

Deathlike, on 03 November 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

It would just be easier to stop the increase of capacity in the first place, and go full trudubs, and see what happens (maybe add a little capacity to IS DHS, since it takes 3 slots).

We'll see.

Well.... We actually have been playing with heatsinks running higher than truedubs thanks to the skill tree boosts... I forget all the numbers at play... but it works out that any number of heatsinks LESS than 19 (or was it 16?) are operating at greater than 2.00 Once you get over that number, it gradually drops a bit... this is because the Engine heatsinks get the same multiplier from the skill tree, making them run well over 2.0 and carrying the extra heat into the installed heatsinks.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 03 November 2015 - 07:19 PM.

[WarHippy]

Deathlike, on 03 November 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

It would just be easier to stop the increase of capacity in the first place, and go full trudubs, and see what happens (maybe add a little capacity to IS DHS, since it takes 3 slots).

We'll see.

That would have been the better place to start in particular when you look at these changes to the skill tree. Heat capacity could be added as quirks to mechs that should probably have them like the Awesome.

Speaking of changes to the skill tree I'm not looking forward to those at all. There are a lot of mechs that feel really terrible to pilot until you elite it and now with elite you won't even have the equivalent of just basic skills that we have now.

[Twilight Fenrir]

WarHippy, on 03 November 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

That would have been the better place to start in particular when you look at these changes to the skill tree. Heat capacity could be added as quirks to mechs that should probably have them like the Awesome.

Speaking of changes to the skill tree I'm not looking forward to those at all. There are a lot of mechs that feel really terrible to pilot until you elite it and now with elite you won't even have the equivalent of just basic skills that we have now.

Though, if ALL of the mechs are more sluggish (Which they will be) the relativity between the terrible feeling mechs and the great feeling mechs will be the same, as they're all getting slashed by the same percent... It will take a while to adjust our expectations of performance, but once we do that, nothing will have changed from one mech to another, all that changes is the disparity between people with a new mech, and people with a mastered mech.

Our machines will be more lumbering behemoths. This will also make MASC shine more brightly.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 03 November 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[White Bear 84]

• Increase to Max Range of IS ER Large Laser and IS Large Pulse Laser (this reduces the amount of damage falloff beyond Optimal Range).

I am filled to the brim with excitement on this change, my LPL Zeus will love this..

But, the decreases to heat management are pretty full on! This will have a significant impact on laser boating mechs of all calibres..

• Cool Run (Basic): Now increases Heat Dissipation by 2.5% (down from original 7.5% value)

(Bearing in mind this would effectively be down to 5% from 15% on elite)

Not impressed by the longer gauss cooldown..

AC2 crits and heat reduction is a welcome change!

[Deathlike]

Twilight Fenrir, on 03 November 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

Well.... We actually have been playing with heatsinks running higher than truedubs thanks to the skill tree boosts... I forget all the numbers at play... but it works out that any number of heatsinks LESS than 19 (or was it 16?) are operating at greater than 2.00 Once you get over that number, it gradually drops a bit... this is because the Engine heatsinks get the same multiplier from the skill tree, making them run well over 2.0 and carrying the extra heat into the installed heatsinks.

We also have sub-250 engine issues. Sure we're ahead of trudubs (it would be more appropriate to remove coolrun altogether instead of trying to adjust it), but Mist Lynx and Lolcusts be damned.

WarHippy, on 03 November 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

That would have been the better place to start in particular when you look at these changes to the skill tree. Heat capacity could be added as quirks to mechs that should probably have them like the Awesome.

Speaking of changes to the skill tree I'm not looking forward to those at all. There are a lot of mechs that feel really terrible to pilot until you elite it and now with elite you won't even have the equivalent of just basic skills that we have now.

I'll be amused at the problems that come with this. Remember that these are applied ontop of minimally quirked mechs instead of the random range of quirks depending on the mech's terribadness prior to quirks.

Edited by Deathlike, 03 November 2015 - 07:25 PM.

[Thorqemada]

On a first look this goes into the right direction though also i see you still leave IS Short Range Weapons like Small and Medium Laser that be waaaayyyyyyyy overshadowed by faaaaaaaar superior Clan Equivalents untouched...

On a second thought i feel you are not really reducing the amount of Longrange-Laservomit that will happen - in general IS Short and IS Medium Laser can take a range increase (200/330m) - IS Large Laser 475m and IS ER LL 650m and Clans accordingly balanced - i would even go so far to say Balance wise should PPCs be the longest range energy weapon!

Edited by Thorqemada, 03 November 2015 - 09:37 PM.

[WarHippy]

Twilight Fenrir, on 03 November 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Though, if ALL of the mechs are more sluggish (Which they will be) the relativity between the terrible feeling mechs and the great feeling mechs will be the same, as they're all getting slashed by the same percent... It will take a while to adjust our expectations of performance, but once we do that, nothing will have changed from one mech to another, all that changes is the disparity between people with a new mech, and people with a mastered mech.

Our machines will be more lumbering behemoths. This will also make MASC shine more brightly.

While it will make everyone more sluggish it doesn't change the fact that people are not going to like how these mechs in general feel without elites. I know they are trying to test things out, but these changes are a really bad idea. We need new skill trees, and it would be great if they were specific to the chassis, but lowering the maneuverability is going to piss people off a lot.

[Y E O N N E]

Twilight Fenrir, on 03 November 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

That doesn't sound like a bad idea... heck, it even makes sense from a scientific understanding of the weapon point of view... all those copper windings generate heat, just like an electric motor. Though, I really don't understand WHY the Gauss is still considered to be a problem? O_o I dunno... maybe it's just that I don't really bump into comp teams outside of fluke encounters in CW... So I don't see the organized terror they are inflicting... I like using them, but I don't dread dual-gauss Jaegers at all anymore o.o And I haven't seen a quad gauss Dire Wolf since the novelty wore off...

It's not really the Gauss itself; a pure dual-gauss anything was no more effective than a current laser boat, and arguably even less effective than one since it has ammo and is often fragile.

The problem with Gauss is that, because it generates zero heat, hits almost instantly, and has the longest range profile of any weapon in the game, it can sync up with lighter, hotter weapons to create one insanely powerful group shot. Before Clans, the worst of the bunch was two PPCs and a Gauss combining for 35 damage at long range every 5 seconds...and it sucked. Now, it's combining with Clan lasers to create 52-94 points of medium-long range damage every 6 seconds...and it sucks just as hard. If Gauss generated heat, it would force players to take or fire less lasers in conjunction with the Gauss shot because the Gauss shot would put them over the cap and shut them down. Because it's hotter, it also indirectly increases cool-down, allowing shorter-ranged 'Mechs the opportunity to get closer and engage if they play it right.

If all you do is increase the cool-down on the Gauss, you don't remove those giant strikes and you still see big 'Mechs like Atlases go down in two and a half hits from one guy.

[Twilight Fenrir]

WarHippy, on 03 November 2015 - 07:24 PM, said:

While it will make everyone more sluggish it doesn't change the fact that people are not going to like how these mechs in general feel without elites. I know they are trying to test things out, but these changes are a really bad idea. We need new skill trees, and it would be great if they were specific to the chassis, but lowering the maneuverability is going to piss people off a lot.

Any change at all is going to piss people off a lot, and you know it They know we need a new skill tree, Russ mentioned it in the Town Hall. But it is gonna be a HUGE undertaking. So they are tinkering with what they can easily for the time being, without pulling resources from what's on their plate right now.

[WarHippy]

Twilight Fenrir, on 03 November 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

Any change at all is going to piss people off a lot, and you know it They know we need a new skill tree, Russ mentioned it in the Town Hall. But it is gonna be a HUGE undertaking. So they are tinkering with what they can easily for the time being, without pulling resources from what's on their plate right now.

If they know we need new skill trees then I'm not understanding the point of these changes as these changes don't create new skill trees just bad game play.

Also any change is not going to piss people off. Only pointless changes and dumb changes piss people off in particular when the devs can't be bothered to give a good reason for them.

Edited by WarHippy, 03 November 2015 - 07:37 PM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 November 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

It's not really the Gauss itself; a pure dual-gauss anything was no more effective than a current laser boat, and arguably even less effective than one since it has ammo and is often fragile.

The problem with Gauss is that, because it generates zero heat, hits almost instantly, and has the longest range profile of any weapon in the game, it can sync up with lighter, hotter weapons to create one insanely powerful group shot. Before Clans, the worst of the bunch was two PPCs and a Gauss combining for 35 damage at long range every 5 seconds...and it sucked. Now, it's combining with Clan lasers to create 52-94 points of medium-long range damage every 6 seconds...and it sucks just as hard. If Gauss generated heat, it would force players to take or fire less lasers in conjunction with the Gauss shot because the Gauss shot would put them over the cap and shut them down. Because it's hotter, it also indirectly increases cool-down, allowing shorter-ranged 'Mechs the opportunity to get closer and engage if they play it right.

If all you do is increase the cool-down on the Gauss, you don't remove those giant strikes and you still see big 'Mechs like Atlases go down in two and a half hits from one guy.

Haha, you didn't play with the same crowd I did before the Clans I had a friend with an Ilya Murromets that had 3 gauss rifles... 45 pinpoint damage at the click of a mouse, no charge mechanic. Of course, he sacrificed like... all of his armor to do it, but with those numbers, it didn't matter. Anything that got hit by him ran and hid, or died fast. This was also before you could only fire 2 gauss at a time. And, lest we forget, the infamous 6 PPC stalkers dropping 60 points of damage per shot... this was pre ghost heat...

I dunno... I still don't see this problem in my day to day gaming. Maybe it's a competitive problem... but, they're competitive... that's what they do.

If they want to increase TTK, just add another 50% to the armor values... they're already double. What's 2.5 gonna hurt? Then Laser Vomit becomes less effective, as they will absolutely overheat before they can deal enough damage to kill unless the enemy leaves them alone to hill-hug, in which case, that's the teams fault. Matches last longer, resulting in higher rewards as more damage has to be dealt so the time/rewards automatically stays level. The only side effect that I can see, is they'd have to buff ammo per ton on everything.

WarHippy, on 03 November 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

If they know we need new skill trees then I'm not understanding the point of these changes as these changes don't create new skill trees just bad game play.

Also any change is not going to piss people off. Only pointless changes and dumb changes piss people off in particular when the devs can't be bothered to give a good reason for them.

What's dumb and pointless is subjective... I think the gauss nerf is dumb, and pointless, and in fact detrimental... other people are saying it's good, and it's about time for more nerfs... This forum is pretty awful pretty frequently...

The value changes are something they can touch without pulling people off of other projects. It's not the changes the game needs, but it's the changes they can afford to make at the moment.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 03 November 2015 - 07:47 PM.

[WarHippy]

Twilight Fenrir, on 03 November 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

What's dumb and pointless is subjective... I think the gauss nerf is dumb, and pointless, and in fact detrimental... other people are saying it's good, and it's about time for more nerfs... This forum is pretty awful pretty frequently...

The forum quality is pretty subjective as well. Personally, I find it far more friendly that most other games I have played over the years by a long shot. As for the change to gauss rifles being pointless it is true that is also subjective, but somehow I don't think it is pissing you off like these other changes have the potential to do with a lot more people.

[Y E O N N E]

Twilight Fenrir, on 03 November 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

Haha, you didn't play with the same crowd I did before the Clans I had a friend with an Ilya Murromets that had 3 gauss rifles... 45 pinpoint damage at the click of a mouse, no charge mechanic. Of course, he sacrificed like... all of his armor to do it, but with those numbers, it didn't matter. Anything that got hit by him ran and hid, or died fast. This was also before you could only fire 2 gauss at a time. And, lest we forget, the infamous 6 PPC stalkers dropping 60 points of damage per shot... this was pre ghost heat...

I dunno... I still don't see this problem in my day to day gaming. Maybe it's a competitive problem... but, they're competitive... that's what they do.

If they want to increase TTK, just add another 50% to the armor values... they're already double. What's 2.5 gonna hurt? Then Laser Vomit becomes less effective, as they will absolutely overheat before they can deal enough damage to kill unless the enemy leaves them alone to hill-hug, in which case, that's the teams fault. Matches last longer, resulting in higher rewards as more damage has to be dealt so the time/rewards automatically stays level. The only side effect that I can see, is they'd have to buff ammo per ton on everything.

It's a multi-faceted problem; not all of the blame lies with the Gauss. Lasers themselves, for instance, are burning way too fast. The bulk is of their damage is dumped faster than the game will allow pilots to get that component out of the way (reaction time + time it takes the 'Mech to move all over the surface area of the component). So...even if the target tries to spread the damage, they still take between 32 and 74 to one spot. So instead of increasing armor...we can increase laser burn. And we can decrease rate of fire (directly or indirectly). It has the same end result of increasing TTK, but also has other possible positive benefits such as making other ballistic weapons or even SRMs more appealing.

And remember, the PPC-boat Stalkers got axed and are exactly the reason we have ghost heat now. But as I said earlier in this thread, ghost heat doesn't work when engages at variable damage limits...limits that you can circumvent by using cominations of weapons...like Gauss rifles with lasers.

Also, I've seen the triple-Gauss Ilya. It's not a problem because it's a trick-build and easy to counter on account of being slow and extremely squishy. It's one solid Firestarter away from being dead.