51 replies to this topic

[no one]

Neat thread. Now if only there were a reason for people to take LRMs, I'd totally have a reason to pack an AMS! It's such a crap-shoot entering a game whether a launcher will be useful at all that people don't take them.

ArcturusWolf, on 04 November 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

It's because the return is actually inversely proportional to the number of LRMs hit. If the idea of AMS is to increase the lifespan of a mech. Consider the following case:

ArcturusWolf, on 08 November 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

No AMS:
Everyone brings AMS:

And this also points out why PGI has such a bad time balancing LRMs. Both the weapon and the counter are exponentially more effective when stacked, which leads to the 'feast or famine' issue. If they limited IDF to one attacker per spotter and made AMS better but non-overlapping and proportionately effective against all launchers / ton then missile balance would be possible.

[Rubberanvil]

Send in the metamechs to deal with the AMS mechs instead wanting to nerf another part of the game.

[Rubberanvil]

As is AMS only overlaps when the mech are close together and usually just one mech is targeted at a time, as the multiple AMS can afford to help protect the targeted mech. Hence the tradeoff issue, focus fire the lrms on one target and watch the AMS shield chew some, half, most or all of the missiles. Or have everyone with lrms target every visible opposing mech so the AMS can not completely shield any one or group of mechs from fire.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Rubberanvil, on 12 November 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

As is AMS only overlaps when the mech are close together and usually just one mech is targeted at a time, as the multiple AMS can afford to help protect the targeted mech. Hence the tradeoff issue, focus fire the lrms on one target and watch the AMS shield chew some, half, most or all of the missiles. Or have everyone with lrms target every visible opposing mech so the AMS can not completely shield any one or group of mechs from fire.

This doesn't quite work out. If you have an AMS and you have LRM rain on you, it will actually target just the LRMs that are locked on to you. Granted, if the whole team only has partial AMS cover, it's definitely possible to find people outside the AMS umbrella.

Edit: That being said, the reverse is true. LRMing the source of AMS will prevent others from being covered by that person's AMS. So if the dual-AMS person gets LRM5'd at the same time a teammate is getting hammered by LRM40, the LRM40 will hit without interference.

Edited by ArcturusWolf, 12 November 2015 - 02:25 PM.

[Night Thastus]

Due to the high-speed of streak missles (even higher in the PTS), AMS simply doesn't have enough time to knock out enough missles. It can MAYBE knock out 1-3 if you're running away from the missles at ~160 KPH.

Otherwise, it's a waste.

Just put ECM if you can, and if you can't, stay away.

EDIT: For context I own and regularly play an Nova with 3 AMS, AMS Range 5 and AMS Overload. It's nice, but it's not perfect. Missles get in often.

Edited by Night Thastus, 12 November 2015 - 02:25 PM.

[DoctorDetroit]

AMS needs a buff. Mostly it needs increased range. This would go along well with the upcoming ECM range nerf.

AMS is not an efficient choice when outfitting your mech. However, I still really enjoy the few moments that my AMS kit fox is able to clear the skies for a team member caught out of position.

Edited by DoctorDetroit, 12 November 2015 - 02:58 PM.

[Rubberanvil]

ECM bubbles are good to a point, but be targeted long enough and even it doesn't count for much when comes to lrms. ECM, AMS and situational awareness do stack together to reducing the number of missiles hitting the target.

[DrnkJawa]

Bring some buddies with AMS and simply enjoy yourself like this classical act

[The Great Unwashed]

I have not used---or felt the need to use---AMS for well over a year, maybe two. I use cover and accept I sometimes get pummeled to death. I do not feel AMS is worth the tonnage

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 13 November 2015 - 07:21 AM.

[Ascaloth]

In the past, 'Mechs capable of loading ECM was just a few (Atlas D-DC, Commando 2D, Spider 5D, Cicada 3M, Raven 3L), and LRMs was considered super overpowered. EVERY match had at least two LRM boats doing great damage and score - and also being cursed for using "a non-skilled noob crutch". At that time I was a fierce user of AMS and defender of how useful it was.

After the LRM nerfs and introduction of a crapton of ECM 'Mechs, LRM became laughable. Just bring a pair of ECMs and even teams with NARC available can't do much against you. AMS is useful today? Barely. Even with the double-ammo buff, ECM is just MUCH better.

But times are going to change again, ECM won't prevent lock anymore - just delay - and LRMs will fly free once again. Expect LOTS of threads in the forum complaining about how LRM is unbalanced, how it need a remake. They will cry millions of gallons of tears then PGI will make LRMs useless again. But in the mean time, MOUNT AMS. It's simple, it's cheap, it's useful and i'm sure it will save everybody by some gallons of tears.

SRMs are being buffed. LRMs are being buffed. You really want to argue against AMS use?

Edited by Ascaloth, 13 November 2015 - 07:44 AM.

[PFC Carsten]

Talking 'bout LRMs, I really enjoy matches where I get to spend all 6000 rounds of ammo for the 3 AMS on my Kitty Fox - of course with (small) buffs and modules to really max out the benefits.

There was this great match on River City, where I saw a lonesome BLR with LRMs and he saw me. When targetted, it was clear it was a lurm boat only and so i walked right up into it's face taking only minor damage from his lurms, circled round his back and killed it with fire (from my MGs).

[RAZOR22]

So far hasn't done nothing for me. I've been pelted with missiles the last 5 missions. taken out everytime. I drive a light mech.

Edited by RAZOR22, 15 October 2016 - 04:58 PM.

[Ixiom]

RAZOR22, on 15 October 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

So far hasn't done nothing for me. I've been pelted with missiles the last 5 missions. taken out everytime. I drive a light mech.

The big problem then is positioning. If you're in a light and you don't have ECM, you'll want to never be more than 30 meters or so from cover. Once you get that missile warning, you want to break line of sight.

I ran a Cute Fox with x3 AMS exclusively for scouting. The idea was to eat up SRMs. I also equipped relatively long-range weapons, maximizing enemy SRM 'air time'... even put in the AMS overcharge and range module. It's all anecdotal as I haven't had the chance to test it in a private match, but I find myself winning more often than not, even against the meta builds like the Griffins. I take a look at my AMS ammo and find it's sometimes entirely depleted at the end of a scouting match. That's gotta count for something, eh?

[The6thMessenger]

Also:

Not bringing AMS because of the belief that your team does not bring it too is a vicious cycle, a self-fulfilling prophecy. Be the responsible one and bring AMS.

[The Basilisk]

RAZOR22, on 15 October 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

So far hasn't done nothing for me. I've been pelted with missiles the last 5 missions. taken out everytime. I drive a light mech.

Thread necro....MUCH

AMS isn't as effective as it used to be to either beeing buggy or intentionally silently nerfed...I don't know.

But the real Question is: "How the effin sh.. is it even possible that you are underway in a light and out of cover long enough for anyone to get a missile lock ???? Or even better how is it possible those missiles are hitting you. ??????"
No realy you must be kidding. Even in my Adder just stepping aside normaly suffices to avoid ANY LRM dmg and this mech is a SLOW light.
@IXIOM: You do know more than 2AMS on any mech do nothing but consume your ammo faster? You Mech can't fire at more than 1 target at a time so more than 2 AMS with range and overcharge just blow ammo into the air hitting already dead missiles, since the AMS needs time to hit and switch targets.

[Lily from animove]

AMS: undust me pls

ME: Oh god the dustball is speaking again.

Edited by Lily from animove, 09 November 2016 - 06:56 AM.

[General Solo]

Me thinks the best defense against lerms is to avoid target lock, Line of Sight thingie in the first place.
But if your happy trouble with lerms
AMS sure can help

[TVMA Doc]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 04 November 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

It's because the return is actually inversely proportional to the number of LRMs hit. If the idea of AMS is to increase the lifespan of a mech. Consider the following case:

Volley of 20 LRMs, 20 volleys @ 1s apart (i.e. approx 240m distance, or the max range of an AMS):\
0 Mechs carrying AMS: 0 missiles shot down/volley = 20 missiles hitting/volley. 400 missiles hit.
1 Mech carrying AMS: 4 missiles shot down/volley = 16 missiles hitting/volley. 320 missiles hit.
2 Mechs carrying AMS: 8 missiles shot down/volley = 12 missiles hitting/volley. 240 missiles hit.
3 Mechs carrying AMS: 12 missiles shot down/volley = 8 missiles hitting/volley. 160 missiles hit.
4 Mechs.... 16 missiles shot down = 4 missiles hitting, 80 missiles hit in total.
5 Mechs+, all missiles shot down.

At first glance this looks like a linear relationship, which it is if you consider damage reduction. But what it really does is if you consider the original goal of AMS (extending life expectancy under missile rain), the time-to-kill (TTK) increases inversely. If we take the mech to be made of one part, just to simplify things, and it is 320 hp worth of mech, and that the complete barrage of 20x20 LRM is 20 seconds long, which can repeat after 20 seconds:

0 Mechs with AMS = 400 missiles hit = 16 seconds to kill
1 Mech with AMS = 320 missiles hit = 20 seconds to kill
2 Mechs with AMS = 240 missiles hit = 26.67 seconds to kill
3 Mechs with AMS = 160 missiles hit = 40 seconds to kill
4 Mechs with AMS = 80 missiles hit = 80 seconds to kill
5 Mechs with AMS = all missiles shot down = infinity seconds to kill.

This is why the more mechs you have, the more effective AMS is. TTK is inversely proportional to the amount of damage taken per unit time; and if you can reduce that damage taken per unit time closer to zero, you can drive up TTK to stupid high levels.

Also, I messed up my calculations. 1 ton of AMS ammo = 2000 shots. 9 shots of AMS kills 1 LRM, so 1 ton of AMS drops about 220 LRMs.

Whatever the exact numbers might be, I agree with this. The issue you face with a mech is that you have finite armor. You can look at AMS as knocking down a percentage of LRM/SRM damage, but whatever gets through chews away at that finite armor. Given enough boats and enough time, or hits with other weapons, you run out of armor.

This even happens if you are sitting behind cover but have a spotter or UAV. Sit there long enough with 5% of LRMs getting through or 0% of LRMs getting through. Which mech will eventually die?

Sure, there's still a benefit to having AMS on your mech when no one else carries, but completely negating the other side's missiles means even more benefit. You aren't going to die the death of a thousand cuts.

[Jman5]

I doubt the AMS will ever be popular with the community unless PGI does more to showcase it. On the one hand you have people who over-estimate their ability to avoid missile fire (just get behind cover bruh!). On the other hand you have folks who think that 1 ton of AMS w/ ammo is useless because it doesn't stop every single missile.

My opinion is that your priority should be:

ECM > Armor > AMS

Don't equip an AMS at the expense of armor or ECM. Don't add Armor at the expense of ECM. But if you have your armor filled out and you don't have ECM, AMS is worth looking into.

I would like to see PGI do a better job of showing off exactly where all the damage you took came from. I would also like to see a stat for missiles shot down from AMS. This is about the only thing that would wake people up that perhaps they and their allies aren't as good at dodging LRMs as they thought they were.

Edited by Jman5, 22 November 2016 - 01:02 PM.

[50 50]

I rather enjoyed reading that post.
Well written Fox, I liked the touch of humour in there.

AMS can be a bit of a roll of the dice in terms of whether you do actually end up using it in a match. Sometimes there are no missiles, sometimes you wonder if you missed the weather forecast.
The simple point being made is that 1.5 tons is not much of a sacrifice to provide some protection. Yes it does come at the expense of other options, but it is always the choice of the player.