73 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

If 20% speed penalty is implemented then clan engine rating should probably be at least partially unlocked.

Why? Because big engines like the timberwolf's 375 are at a huge disadvantage. Clan mechs shouldn't be doubly penalized for being forced to take big engines that's really dumb. It just makes mechs with more reasonably sized engines and more podspace, like the ebon jaguar, outright better choices since they have less to lose when a side torso gets inevitably popped.

Also nerfing clan lasers when most clan mechs can't use anything but lasers due to big engines consuming all their podspace is ridiculous. Unlocking engine ratings would allow clan mechs to actually use other weapons besides nerfed lasers.

Ebon jaguar will pretty much be the only clan mech used if these changes go live. Because it's the only clan mech with half decent speed that has the podspace to use ballistics. Not to mention it's side torsos are much smaller than the timberwolf's.

Edited by Khobai, 20 November 2015 - 07:44 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

most Clan Mechs Suffer more from not being Optimized than Large Engines,
Ferro in stead of Endo(+2Tons in alot of Cases) Locked DHS(NVA=4/WHK=7),
i would rather have those than Unlocked Engines for your TBR,

[Tesunie]

Clan XL engines don't die when they lose a side torso, but weigh the same as IS XL engines.

All the benefits of XL with none of the drawbacks. They had to add in some kind of drawback for losing a side torso for clan XL engines. (Especially seen as the IIC mechs are soon to be released.)

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. Clans have locked equipment to counter a lot of their benefits, such as freedom of customization/hardpoints, typically better/lighter/fewer crit space gear, etc.



I also find it funny that you think clan mechs can't utilize ACs or other weapons besides lasers. My Thor (Summoner) would beg to differ. However, Lasers currently are registering damage better, and typically deal more damage per ton than other weapons systems. This combined with Clan double heat sinks being two crits, clan lasers having better ranges, weighing less and taking less crit spaces, with "free" XL engines (that are almost like standard engines)... Lasers are just more relevant than the other weapons. (Besides SSRM builds, typically.) ACs having a burst fire (which feels nice) makes them less efficient over IS ACs, which is why they are not taken as often.

[DivineEvil]

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Why? Because big engines like the timberwolf's 375 are at a huge disadvantage. Clan mechs shouldn't be doubly penalized for being forced to take big engines that's really dumb.

What all of that even means? They're not forced, they're priveleged. Clan engines are not fit into the mechs, it's mechs, that are built around the engines. Simple as that.

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It just makes mechs with more reasonably sized engines and more podspace, like the ebon jaguar, outright better choices since they have less to lose when a side torso gets inevitably popped.

How exactly are Ebon Jaguars has less to lose when they have the same speed limit and thus the same performance?

Is... is this some silly "keep the timby number one!" campaign?

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Also nerfing clan lasers when most clan mechs can't use anything but lasers due to big engines consuming all their podspace is ridiculous.

Most clan mechs can't use anything but lasers, because their pilots are CoD potatoes, who's good enough for alpha-striking point-and-click weapons alone. Good Clan pilots are capable of using Ballistics to great results just fine.

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Ebon jaguar will pretty much be the only clan mech used if these changes go live. Because it's the only clan mech with half decent speed that has the podspace to use ballistics. Not to mention it's side torsos are much smaller than the timberwolf's.

So ~90kph on a Heavy mech is "half decent speed" now, yeah. And 1 ton of podspace difference is totally the reason because TWs cannot use ballistics, yeah. Do you even check your facts before writing anything?

Timber has more armor and JJets. If you can't use these as advantages, then there's not much reason to use one over Ebon Jaguar anyway. Your reasoning makes no sense.

Edited by DivineEvil, 21 November 2015 - 02:01 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

DivineEvil, on 21 November 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

Most clan mechs can't use anything but lasers, because their pilots are CoD potatoes, who's good enough for alpha-striking point-and-click weapons alone. Good Clan pilots are capable of using Ballistics to great results just fine.

Hey Hey, my Nova would like to have a Word with you DivineEvil!

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 21 November 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Hey Hey, my Nova would like to have a Word with you DivineEvil!

I presume with some ACs or missiles?
Probably to his CT too?

[Khobai]

Andi Nagasia, on 20 November 2015 - 09:00 PM, said:

most Clan Mechs Suffer more from not being Optimized than Large Engines,
Ferro in stead of Endo(+2Tons in alot of Cases) Locked DHS(NVA=4/WHK=7),
i would rather have those than Unlocked Engines for your TBR,

Timberwolf has both ES and FF and still can't use multiple ballistics because it's 375 engine takes up all it's pod space

Problem is huge engines taking up all their tonnage not lack of ES or FF

[Khobai]

DivineEvil, on 21 November 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

What all of that even means? They're not forced, they're priveleged. Clan engines are not fit into the mechs, it's mechs, that are built around the engines. Simple as that.

How exactly are Ebon Jaguars has less to lose when they have the same speed limit and thus the same performance?

Is... is this some silly "keep the timby number one!" campaign?

Lower engine rating and smaller side torsos I explained this already. Ebon goes same speed but it has a much lighter engine.

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Most clan mechs can't use anything but lasers, because their pilots are CoD potatoes, who's good enough for alpha-striking point-and-click weapons alone. Good Clan pilots are capable of using Ballistics to great results just fine.

So ~90kph on a Heavy mech is "half decent speed" now, yeah. And 1 ton of podspace difference is totally the reason because TWs cannot use ballistics, yeah. Do you even check your facts before writing anything?

No one runs stock armor on mechs though. Ebon gets way more than 1 ton pod space advantage after timber is armored to full.

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Timber has more armor and JJets. If you can't use these as advantages, then there's not much reason to use one over Ebon Jaguar anyway. Your reasoning makes no sense.

If the timber is given more armor and JJs it's not using ballistics. So yes my reasoning makes perfect sense. The timber is forced to use nerfed lasers while the ebon is able to use ballistics.

The whole point of unlocking engine rating is to allow clan mechs with Huge engines to take other weapons besides lasers. This also helps mechs like the gargoyle, executioner, and warhawk. It would drastically improve weapon diversity for clan mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 22 November 2015 - 07:39 PM.

[Tesunie]

Khobai, on 22 November 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

If the timber is given more armor and JJs it's not using ballistics. So yes my reasoning makes perfect sense. The timber is forced to use nerfed lasers while the ebon is able to use ballistics.

The whole point of unlocking engine rating is to allow clan mechs with Huge engines to take other weapons besides lasers. This also helps mechs like the gargoyle, executioner, and warhawk.

Thor/Summoner C
Near maxed armor, large engine, locked jump jets, and carries ballistics.

Thor/Summoner D
Near maxed armor, large engine, locked jump jets, and carriers even more ballistics.


Each also don't have Clan Endo-Steel. If the Summoner can do it, why can't the Timberwolf?

[Khobai]

Those builds are absolutely terrible and non-competitive

And one uac5 is not a ballistic loadout. Try again.

A jägermech or cataphract can have 4 ac5s for example but a summoner never can.

Edited by Khobai, 22 November 2015 - 07:52 PM.

[Kira Onime]

Khobai, on 22 November 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

Ebon gets way more than 1 ton pod space advantage after timber is armored to full.

EBJ max armor no weapons - 28.5 free tons
TBR max armor - 2 *to round out to closest 0.5 ton* - 27.5 free tons.


The major difference will be how many JJ the TBR wants to bring ranging from 0 to 5.

So the person you quoted is technically correct.

[Livewyr]

As much as it would help the crap clan mechs, it would make the competitive ones literal gods.

Configurable Hardpoints and adjustable clan XLs = wtf.

[Tesunie]

Khobai, on 22 November 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

Those builds are absolutely terrible and non-competitive

And one uac5 is not a ballistic loadout. Try again.

Never said I was a competitive player.

These builds work well for me. The C is my best preforming Summoner. Followed by the D.

One UAC5 is still 7 tons without ammo... It might not be a "boated" ballistic build, but it is still a ballistic build.

Why are people so quick to inform other people how "horribly bad" someone else's builds are?

[Khobai]

Kira Onime, on 22 November 2015 - 07:42 PM, said:

EBJ max armor no weapons - 28.5 free tons
TBR max armor - 2 *to round out to closest 0.5 ton* - 27.5 free tons.


The major difference will be how many JJ the TBR wants to bring ranging from 0 to 5.

So the person you quoted is technically correct.

Except Jumpjets are 1 ton each so if you take JJs you have way less podspace

[Tesunie]

Khobai, on 22 November 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

Except Jumpjets are 1 ton each so if you take JJs you have way less podspace

But by that point, it would be a choice of the user to utilize their pod space for JJ instead of other weapon systems.

[Kira Onime]

Khobai, on 22 November 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

Except Jumpjets are 1 ton each so if you take JJs you have way less podspace

Still doesn't change the original statement that EBJs have 1 more free ton to play with compared to the TBR,

[Khobai]

Kira Onime, on 22 November 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

Still doesn't change the original statement that EBJs have 1 more free ton to play with compared to the TBR,

Then he should retract his statement about jumpjets being an advantage over the ebon jaguar

Also that 1 ton matters a lot when it comes to fitting dual gauss builds

[Kira Onime]

Khobai, on 22 November 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

Then he should retract his statement about jumpjets being an advantage over the ebon jaguar

Also that 1 ton matters a lot when it comes to fitting dual gauss builds

The JJ advantage depends on the build. I'd gladly trade 1 heatsink for that little "humph" in a JJ.
Also dual gauss EBJ is nice but it's a niche build. Not allot of ammo.

[Tesunie]

Khobai, on 22 November 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

Then he should retract his statement about jumpjets being an advantage over the ebon jaguar

Also that 1 ton matters a lot when it comes to fitting dual gauss builds

JJs, depending upon how they are used, can be worth their weight and easily an advantage for their weight class.

Example: The Firestarter is considered better than the Wolfhound because it has jump. So is the Panther.

The option of being able to take JJs at all is an advantage, even if it is not taking advantage of.

[MischiefSC]

So you get all the weight savings of an XL, until you lose a ST. Then, instead of dying.... you just get slowed down to match what having had a STD engine (of the same tonnage) would have provided. So you get the literal best of both worlds - XL weight savings for XL speed and weapon tonnage until you lose a ST. At which point it's like it shifts to being a STD engine. For example you get the speed of a 375XL in a Timber Wolf and associated tonnage savings until you lose your ST. At that point instead of dying instantly you just... slow down to about the speed you would have had with a 305std.

How about this - you get unlocked STD engines that weigh and work just like IS STD engines but if you want an XL you go with the default one?

Of course only an absolute nitwit would actually put a STD engine in since taking the 375XL gives you a huge performance boost and when you lose a ST you just... default to what you'd have had from moment one in a 300STD.

I'd be happy to see engines unlocked for Clans if they worked just like IS engines. Death on ST loss, 3 slots each side and Endo/FF at 14 slots each. Plus crit space and tonnage on weapons and DHS increased to IS standards.

Oh, wait, suddenly that's not a very good trade, is it? The locked engine is what offsets the reduced weight and spaces of Clan weapons and equipment. It prevents total min/max of the smaller, lights Clan weapons and 1/2 sized Endo/FF.

The tradeoff being you have to put up with the weight savings of an XL and pretty much the survival of a STD. Peanut butter I tell you, my heart bleeds it!