30 replies to this topic

[krolmir]

There are many ways to balance this game, that don't require sweeping changes, quirks, or the ever venerated cone of fire.

Quirks, thou a quick fix, always caused as many problems as they solved, making a mech too tough, too cool, and have too much dps. Nullifying the use of other chassis, and ruining the diversity of cw, alienating pilots who want to fight in there favorite mechs vs. op chassis.

- However there are some acceptable quirks, that wouldn't cause these problems.

Cone of Fire, this little gem used to partially exist in MWO. It was called closed beta before arm lock. In order to pin point alpha you had to wait patiently on the 2 reticles to converge, and pray you and your target stood still, or both moved slow enough to get convergence for a pinpoint alpha. This left the "alpha-er" more open to incoming fire, because movement had to be sacrificed to actually accomplish this. This fact also justifed the Pin-point talent as well. However, this led to chassis' with more arm-mounted hard-points to become meta, even then it was only in a brawling senario. This was because the user could focus on just one 1 reticle. Don't believe me unbind your controls and see how much harder it is.

- How about this, get rid of arm-lock for players who are no longer in their cadet zone, and make a little video/class in academy to explain this fact, that extra easy mode will only last for a bit....

- quirk chassis with less arm mounted hard points with more torso twist speed, and give arm speed across arm heavy hard-pointed chassis a bit of a nerf. This will help balance the time to acquisition point of firing. This is one of those good quirks, that doesn't ruin a chassis because it goes across all of them, and still let they're strength's shine.

Next item 'll pin on the bulls-eye, Clan vs IS weight, space requirements. To, one of the easiest ways to help balance the Uber alpha of most clan mechs. One IS components take far more space than Clan. So it makes sense that with additional mass/size comes additional HP's.

- IS endo steel, which takes double the space, should add an internal hit point bonus to IS mechs. This makes it a much better upgrade for IS, where space is at a much higher premium, and helps lower the sacrifice for IS mechs. Our weapons which have higher space requirements and weigh more, in most cases, should get a health buff. The last thing we can do to correct the differential is an IS ammo buff per ton. This will be a boon to all IS mechs, but especially the mediums and lights that would like to carry a larger missile or ballistic, but currently lack enough tonnage to carry enough ammo to be battle effective.

- IS XL engines have 2 extra slots vs clan so they should also get a 20% Hp increase over clan

- IS heat sinks have an extra slot, they should have a higher HP count as well.

- IS mechs as a general whole tougher once the armor is peeled away, it will make the IS weapons hard to kill, allowing IS to survive longer against clan front loaded damage.


The last point I'll make for different way to increase TTk is to allow us to redistribute armor, for non-omni mechs, sorry clanners, but you get range, speed, and raw power; how much more do you really need?! Yes, yes, clan mechs be warm, but how many IS mechs can fit 25+ heat sinks in a chassis, and still have room for much more than a medium laser and a motor. Yes I dare you to go to smurfy and try this. I have an executioner with 26DHS, 2 ERLL, 5 ERML, and 5 ERSL's. I've run DWF's with upwards of 14 weapons on board many of which heavy ballistics. Not lasting longer while carrying such a load is a form of balance.

- If I don' want max armor on my legs let me send the excess to the ST's, CT, Rear St's and RCT this will again allow you to last longer versus the clan onslaught.

Lastly for the really weak chassis in game, add some hard points to them, for the love of christ, anyone who would refer to a myst lynx, or ice ferret as OP due to so much firepower needs to see a shrink. This goes for both sides Clan and IS chassis that are currently under par and not favored by limited hard point option.

Sure there are some holes in my theories that would need filling in, but that is for actual testing to decide.

[DivineEvil]

- IS/Clan Balance:
The problem with Clan mechs, is that they were originally designed to be outright better than IS mechs. Following that design decision, almost all mechanics and systems fare better for Clans, which gives them an undeniable general edge, provided by multitude of small features and values. There's two general ways of adressing an advantage in any game, where several different sides are represented: you can neglect the distinctions, or you can promote them.

Neglection of distinctions is made by reducing the higher values for superior side, or by removing and penalizing the unique features, that superior side possess in particular areas. Promotion of distictions is made by increasing some values for inferior side, or by implementing new unique features in it's favor, where two sides are otherwise equal.

Neglection of distinctions is the current methodology chosen by PGI, which I deeply despise. It undermines the whole idea of having two different sides in the game environment, and each next step make it worse. Even if right now all of than Clan variables are exactly equated to the IS tech-base, Clan mechs will still remain at the advantage due to their internal features, such as XL survivability, better ES and FF, omni-pod system and others, while also trying to remove some of those features is in most cases would break the "stock" models and the whole foundation of Clan's original character.

Thus, my standpoint is that they should instead promote those distinctions in IS favor instead. Following my train of thought, fiddling with particular separate cases, which provided the Clans with that general advantage for over a year, is ridiculous and plainly counter-productive. As it stands, there's literally too few options in specific values, that can be tweaked in IS favor without breaking the most basic Mechwarrior theoretical rules and lore foundation. Reducing the raw value advantages Clans posess will only reduce the imbalance, but it will never achieve the balanced state itself, and also would waste the enormous amount of time.

Rather than wrecking their nerves over every specific detail, PGI should just bluntly introduce a single, rudimentary simple advantage for the Inner Sphere mechs - doubled base internal structure durability for all of them across the table; basically an internal structure, that is exactly equal to the maximum armor rating of any given mech's component. This change will eradicate the need to stack dozens of different quirks of all kinds on every IS mech and leaving Clan mechs with nothing but few positive or negative ones. Actually, PGI has already stepped into that trend by applying variable structure and armor quirks to vast majority of IS mechs in the most recent PTS iteration, but the magnitude of IS/Clan disbalance is so great, that these quirks are apparently insufficient and require additional weapon, mobility and infotech bonuses to be placed on top of them.

Double Internal Structure for IS mechs will create a good basis for much smaller adjustments in either directions. It will compensate for larger target profiles and hitboxes of IS mechs, that are easier to pinpoint and focus-down, compared to sleek'n'slim Clan mechs, which even makes sense from technical perspective. As the time would pass, players will get used not to consider IS having the double structure, but instead to see Clan mechs as paying their own half in return for generally better weapons, tech-base and smaller mech profiles. In ideal circumstances, that simple change would be enough to treat IS and Clan mechs equally, which in turn would allow to start from scratch and use Quirks solely to differentiate between mechs, variants and omni-pods of varying integral quality, rather than obnoxiously using Quirk system for the purpose it is not suitable for.

At the same time, it will also reduce Time To Kill, it will make crit-seeking weapons more feasible alternative to standard ones, it will make maximum armor values less mandatory for survival, and it will improve the experience for new players, allowing them to have more in-field practice with baseline Inner Sphere mechs. Clan players will have to consider for their more fragile mechs, even though they'll get more potential damage to deal with their superior weapons, and would have to rely on their mobility and range more. In cases, where some specific Clan mechs can get inferior to those beefy IS chassies, the Quirks can be appropriately exploited to keep them in par with others, which brings us to...

- Quirk System
Quirk system in it's nature is very similar to the stat systems, that are used in most other games to differentiate between player choices - character creation and class systems in RPGs, variable firearm models in Shooters, vehicle performance stereotypes in Simulators and Racing games, and so on. Unfortunately, other balance issues has caused Quirk system to mutate into a tool used for adding raw, unguided variation and reaching pretty desperate balancing solutions.

In order to make Quirk system flourish to it's full potential, it has to be intellectually guided and led by the underlying, predeterimined philosophy, that would bring it to the solid goal, rather than abused for band-aiding completely unrelated issues. There's dozens of possible approaches and methodologies possible, but my personal suggestion, that reflects my initial hopes for the PTS re-balance initiative, goes for logically assured, successive stages, each paving up the road for the next one, and goes as follows:

First, the Quirks themselves has to be recognized as the part of a single interlocked system. All the quirks, that has been scripted into MWO so far has to be separated by their area of impact. Following the PGI's own invented structure, they has to be relegated into four distinct categories: Defense, Firepower, Mobility and Infotech. All four categories has to be roughly equal in count of their subordinate quirks. For example, the naturally small Defense tree, on top of basic Armor/Structure bonuses and Crit Protection, would also contain External Heat Transfer, Heat Capacity, Heat Dissipation and Torso Twist Rate. All quirks should be viewed as the percentage bonuses to the base values, even if not brought into the game as such.

Then, different quirks has to be weighted against one-another in comprehensible way. In order to do that, an arbitrary "quirk point" should be implemented, and one of such point has to be equated to every quirk with a certain bonus value. A pretty good method of doing that, is picking the maximum amount of quirk points, that can be placed into a single quirk of any kind, as a contrast to one quirk point, that would represent the minimum meaningful modifier. For example, lets imagine a maximum point value is decided to be 10 points per quirk. Then we would take each quirk and ask similarly, what is a maximum bonus that quirk should give. Like, what is the maximum reasonable value for Energy Weapon Range quirk? Lets say its 30%. Then each quirk point is equal to 3.0% bonus to Energy Range. Using the same method, all quirks should obtain their own per-point value.

Stepping away from quirks, all mechs, starting from the chassis and then by its variants, has to be evaluated to detemine which of them are physically average, better or worse by theit integral properties - size, density, particular hitboxes, hardpoints, engine limits, etc. Each variant of a mech has to recieve an average value of quirk points, that would used by default to create basic distinction. Mechs and variants, that has advantages in their initial design, would get penalties to their quirk-point pool, and vise versa. That would result in a spreadsheet, where each variant of a mech obtains its own quirk-point value, that would represent its relative weakness, that quirks would have to compensate for.

After that, each chassis has to recieve its original Class distinction, in order to make sense of what quirks they should and should not have. To determine the Class of a mech, the mere surface of Battletech lore is enough. Fictional history of each chassis is provided by the original Technical Readouts and featured on Sarna.net. This data on it's own provides almost perfect description of what each mech were designed for, and what distictive properties it had. Using it, while following the same methodology that were used for Quirk system, mechs can be separated into four groups by their features: Jack-of-all-trades and heavily armored mechs, such as Centurions, Dragons, Orions and Awesomes would relate to Defense Class; Snipers, Fire-support and mechs overall relying on their weapons more, that anything else, such as Hunchbacks, Riflemans, Marauders and Maulers would relate to Firepower Class; Mechs designed as strikers or flankers, such as Enforcers, Quickdraws, Grasshoppers and Victors would relate to Mobility Class; Finally, mechs built for Commanding, Stealth, Recon and Indirect Fire-support, such as Trebuchets, Catapults, Black Knights and Zeus would relate to Infotech Class. In some problematic cases, where there's too many or too few existing mechs in a given weight-class, the hybrid-class definitions can be used; For example, the Crab chassis is fifth in 50-ton weight sub-class and unlike others is hard to define as either definite Defense, Firepower, Mobility or Infotech class member, thus instead it can be appointed the Hybrid-Class, so that different Crab variants can each have their own DFMI ratios and as result become even more distinct to one-another, while the Chassis itself would not replicate some another 50-tonner.

Either way, the chassis Class would define the dominant type of quirks, that will be appointed to each variant of a given chassis in one form or another, while the remainder of quirk-point pool will be used to give these variants their own distinct values within the same chassis. These definitions should certainly be appointed with respect to the possible additions to the mech pool in the future, preemptively accounting for such mechs as Crossbow, Flashman, Emperor, Annihilator, that fit into the present timeline and can fit into the present class layout. Clan mechs would be differentiated on a per-variants basis, potentialy having all four aspects redistributed around the present omni-pod models, including CT (omnimech' frame), Legs and Head omni-pods, that are currently have miniscule (if any at all) differences and do not affect the end result nearly enough to make any impact. That would allow Clan players to mix-and-match omni-pods to personally design a chassis Class and acquire any combination of Quirks they want. As with IS variants, each omni-pod will get a proper volume of quirks depending on fixed equipment and number of hardpoints it provides. Hero-Mechs would represent the strict deviation from the original chassis; for example, while the all the regular Cataphract variants will represent the Defense-class with corresponding quirks, the Ilya Muromets instead will be quirked to be mobile/firepower platform.

Finally, combining the quirk-point values with now appointed chassis Classes, the actual quirks are implemented to each variant and omni-pod. The type of quirk is chosen based on it's impact on the target variants, thus even full-energy Black Knight would get Infotech-class quirks, but those of them which fit them best, such as Mech Profile reduction, Acquisition Delay, while avoiding the ones, that are more suited for LRM-boats or scouts. If in some cases a quirk seems to be lacking in volume, especially for Clan omni-pods, negative quirks could be used to give some extra points back and make positive quirks more meaningful.

All of those operations would result in enormous variety - mechs of different weight groups, where each chassis is unlike the others in that weight group, and where each variant is unlike the others within their chassis. The amount of quirks per variant will be reduced, while their impact and logical consistency will rise, which would make it easier to find the mech a player need for a certain role or playstyle. There will also going to be a reason to keep different Omnimech frames, even despite the presence of the omni-pod system, while Leg, Head and other virtually identical omni-pods would now find their use.

- Combat Dynamics
Currently, combat in MWO is plagued by laser-vomit mentality, that makes any other approaches to mech loadout almost redundant. Reason lies in Base Heat Capacity of 30 points, that provides laser-vomit and other high-alpha builds with extremely oversized heat buffer, that allows enormous alpha-strikes to be fired several times consecutively, while continuous combat is unsustainable, as the time required to completely cool-off compared to Table-Top is increaded to rougly the same degree as the weapon cooldowns are reduced (2.5x multiplier).

Base Heat Capacity must be completely removed, and with it the Ghost Heat Scaling. Ghost Heat is incoherent system, that were basically made to work around that extra Base Heat Capacity without reducing it directly, and introduced invisible multipliers, that are inaccessible in the game. Heatsinks has to become the centerstone of heat-management customization. In order to do that, DHS has to be buffed back into their original power of 2/0.2, while SHS should be buffed to 1.4/0.14 in their place. If testing would show, that these changes would make the combat too slow or punishing, Base Heat Dissipation has to be added instead.

All of these changes will bring the mech combat into more open skirmishing/brawling shape without nerfing particular weapon systems, where currently both of those playstyles are practically impossible and futile. Alpha-striking would become the risky method of using weapons, rather than the only viable way to fight competetively. It will be much easier to adjust weapon balance, without using astronomical numbers and convoluted mechanics that Ghost Heat represents in its whole. Real-time heat management will become much more important, than just knowing how many alpha-strike you can handle. Energy-based mechs will be used to carry several groups of varying weapons for different circumstances, rather than just boating as many weapons of the same type as possible. Heatsinks themselves would become more important then ever before and finally would worth the tonnage and space they occupy. Flamers would become a much more serious threat with less heat capacity to burn trough. PPCs will be naturally limited by their alpha-potential, but easier to use in continuous barrage trades. Non-energy weapons will be affected by these change exactly in the degree they're related to heat in the first place.

There's no discussion possible about any real weapon balance, before the fundamental heat-management system is not brought into valid shape first.

- Weapon Balance
- All autocannons should be adjusted to the same DPS value, as the ones considered as valid. If the AC/20 is considered valid and has DPS rate of 5.0, then AC/10, AC/5 and AC/2 all has to produce the same DPS, which would go as AC/10 and LBX/10 with Cooldown of 2.0s, AC/5 with cooldown of 1.0s and AC/2 with cooldown of 0.4s. The pin-point damage difference and alpha-strike potential between those weapons are enough to compensate for the difference in weight and range. The extreme loss of DPS for lighter Autocannons is what makes them usable only on severely over-quirked mechs, such as DRG-1N or CN9-D. This will have an adverse effect on tonnage spent for ammunition, but those weapons will actually be considered worthwhile for such change. Ultra-Autocannons should then be adjusted to give reasonable bonus to DPS compared to their regular cousins, because at the moment they give too much extra for the weight difference and effectively replace the conventional ones by all means.

- Gauss cooldown should not be increased above 4.75-5.00 seconds, otherwise it will reduce it's DPS rating below the viable status. The Clan's Gauss should be slightly penalized in the same way as all other Clan weapons are - by convenience of use. For that, charge-up duration should be increased to compensate for the lighter weight and smaller size, but all other stats should remain the same as IS model.

- On the other side of the spectrum, Machineguns should be buffed to DPS of 1.0; In return, their bonus critical damage has to be reduced or removed, to make them more reliable and less dependant on random chance.

- All Pulse Lasers should be reviewed and adjusted in regards to their range. All range buffs previously applied has to be turned back down, and instead their cooldown should be increased. That will help to differentiate them from standard lasers as dedicated brawling weapon, increasing their shorter-range damage output, without touching the damage itself. Clan Large Pulse lasers has to be toned down significantly, as the most obviously over-f***ng-powered energy weapon currently in the game.

- LRMs should be more reliable, but harder to abuse. Their cooldown should be increased as planned, but their maximum range also should be brought down at least closer to Table-Top values (630m), while AMS has to be a more efficient countermeasure against them. On the other hand, LRMs are self-guided, so they have to home into the targets they were fired into on their own if the lock persisted when they reached their ballistic altitude. They also should fly straight into the target if it's in direct view of the user, or if missiles are dumb-fired, without needlessly obtaining that ballistic trajectory. Finally, they has to be slightly faster.
Currently they're too unreliable to be used competetively, but any conventional stat changes will certainly make them overpowered due to 50%+ increased max range.

- Currently planned ECM changes can cause NARC beacons to become overpowered. To adress that problem, NARC beacons should be represented as actual physical objects attached to the location they've managed to hit, and both allies or enemies has to be capable to destroying it, similarly to UAVs. The amount of HPs is debatable.

TL:DR
1.Double Internal structure for IS mechs. Scratching current quirks and starting over to make distinct mechs, variants and omni-pods.
2.Complete review of quirks based on previous fix. Classifying mechs using lore and statistical clues to choose proper quirks, to make all mechs better suited for completely different roles.
3.Removal of Base Heat-Cap and Ghost Heat Scale, but buffing heatsinks. Adding Base Heat Dissipation if necessary.
4.Weapon tweaks shenanigans. Pretty worthless, as everyone has their own view on what has to be done with weapons, but whatever.

Edited by DivineEvil, 30 November 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[Ohmlink]

I personally would prefer a standard COF method. Most issues with balance have more to do with how effective boating is. The issue with nerfing weapons is that it hurts the mechs that didn't win the hard point lottery as well.

If boated weapons are too good adjust their accuracy, I don't think anyone has an issue with a guass rifle hitting you. Its the the fact that gauss is joined by another gauss and 4-6 medium lasers, all hitting the same point. The game's armor system was not designed with that in mind.

A COF on JJs would have neutered the Poptart meta before it began and the mechs put in time out after it would have likely never needed to be butchered.
Would people still poptart, definitely, but without the pin point damage our current aiming allows it wouldn't have been near as effective.

Before someone crys about COF please remember, no one has an issue of you shooting and hitting your target where you want it. We have an issue with you doing it with multiple weapons, across the map, into a single component.

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

VVV add gear ffs screw the time line an balance by gearVVV

http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light

http://www.sarna.net...Equipment_Lists


http://mwomercs.com/...90#entry4817290

Edited by CuriousCabbitBlue, 07 December 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[Russhuster]

first throw all quirks and nerfs where this belongs .. to the trash bin

simply code the matchamker to group clan vs is in 10 vs 12
is vs is in 12 to 12 and clan vs clan in 10 to 10 or 15 to 15

thats both, lore conform and balanced
ah but no...... too simple

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

an boating is a issue for two reason

1. less to think about ( lets say lasers+guass or any comebo like that one for left click one for right, then another to chainfire lasers)

2. the effectiveness of weapons(most people don't consider clan acs to be worth it, that an on top most mechs released recently have mostly energy points)

3. it looks awesome to boat, I cry tears of join using my lrm 70 maddog bloat out the sky an seeing out others react or just a whole lot of lasers

and everyone has these wild ideas but just adding harden armor (which is a tech they need to add) you can double IS armor, add in a modular frame armor too that you can more then double it

its why I'm saying balance the gear alot these balance suggest are done by tech upgrades that are already in the lore.

I don't see the point of not adding them in since they where there to balance out things anyway.

and these way people can choose more was to build their mechs an that's a big thing

[Inglix]

Russhuster, on 07 December 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

first throw all quirks and nerfs where this belongs .. to the trash bin

simply code the matchamker to group clan vs is in 10 vs 12
is vs is in 12 to 12 and clan vs clan in 10 to 10 or 15 to 15

thats both, lore conform and balanced
ah but no...... too simple

One could even say C-5 vs IS-12 if it's still OP. Let's not contort things - Clan mechs are horrifically overpowered tabletop vs IS mechs. The difference was numbers, and even then whole IS regiments were wiped out. If someone wants to play clans so bad that they end up waiting in the queue, it can't be helped. Clan mechs being returned to OP status, fine. Just don't expect to drop with a big group while the IS will have a big group. The IS will outnumber you, and I'm guessing it will be better than 2-1. Maximum star weights in effect. Yes, it's a -expletive- but you are 2x as powerful as they are on a bad day.

Next: most quirks go into the toilet. Quirks should exist for very specific (read: Hero) mechs and be very minor. A fun or "story" thing more than anything else providing big advantages. You have "Heavy Metal" as the perfect example. Not much different but a nice paint scheme, some speakers, and reinforced legs for the "Highlander burial" (death from above) maneuver. Another example, even though not tabletop would be Sarah's Jenner. Mostly it's a cute paint scheme custom variant. The point is that the quirks could be interesting things in the game, but shouldn't wildly affect gameplay.

Weapons / Gameplay changes---

Ballistic weapons (AC mostly) would get minor changes. Basic shell size / gravity effect / speed - the effect for accuracy / range. Honestly, once a large ballistic round passes it's "effective" range the accuracy goes to pot fast. Why do you think many competition shooters like to use small and fast 6/6.5mm rounds at 1000yds? The 30 caliber round is very good as well but, as we get finer with quality control, the 6.5mm is often better due to physical effects of air / gravity / speed. There's also the usual fast vs slow rate of fire argument. A weapon firing at a higher rate of fire is typically less accurate than a slower firing ballistic. Recoil, amongst other items impact ballistic accuracy. So an AC/2 would typically be more accurate than an Ultra AC/2, or an AC/10. Firing a single ballistic weapon long distance would be more accurate than firing 2 or more.

Side note: a Gauss is always charged until fired, meaning it doesn't take X to charge up to fire like now. The whole reason a gauss rifle "explodes" is the capacitors holding all the energy to fire a shot are popped off. Now if the gun isn't charged / charging, then it's not going to do any damage when it's hit. That's both C & IS gauss. The recharge time should be played with if anything is used to "nerf" them.

Engine hits shouldn't be insta-death, they should raise base heat level (this comes into play more below) for both C and IS. That's the disadvantage of XL engines, bulky and easier to hit, but it isn't insta-die. No, the hits raise the base running heat level. Yes, enough hits kills the engine.

Missiles, pretty easy to "fix" and it shouldn't require nerfing. Remember your source material, indirect fire is by far less accurate, more of a splatter effect. With LRM's being 1 point of damage that splatter effect (minus something like special SWARM / Thunder ammo) is pretty limited damage wise. Most people fail to note that indirect "artillery fire" of LRM's was pretty useless because splatter effect scattered "splash" damage over multiple hexes. SWARM / Thunder ammo were designed (in the books) so that LRMs could mimic actual artillery. So, in basic terms: indirect splash damage =/= full damage, not even remotely. Now when you are direct firing missiles, LRMs become much more effective BUT the mechs firing are also far more exposed / vulnerable, it takes time to fire 40 missiles. So go back to the source material and you get the fix. This still leaves LRM's very powerful, especially zero range to arm clan LRM's, but worst case is (like gauss) play with reload time. Oh, you can still indirect fire. That just becomes less attractive due to very little damage effect.

It also means mechs with AMS have a very effective umbrella against indirect LRM fire. Yeah, it pretty much kills artillery style firing for kills on AMS equipped mechs. Then again, in the board game (or real life, just look at a CIWS) indirect fire wasn't effective without the special munitions. Still, AMS is less effective vs the whole 10-40 coming in direct. More targets possible = possibly less targets hit. Even in real life CIWS isn't a perfect shield against direct fire missiles. So it's a nerf that isn't really a nerf when you look at the game rules, or even real life.

Lasers are great weapons, and PPC's should be as well. After all, this isn't space with huge distances. Since we aren't talking about light minutes between targets, they should be near insta hit on trigger pull. Speed of light (or charged particles) is near instant at these ranges, but then how do you balance that to prevent "laser vomit"? Pilot aiming skill (along with beam duration) should determine the damage. Yes, that means PPC's wouldn't be firing ********** of splash damage light anymore. PPC's would pretty much work the same as lasers now: beams of light with a duration. The Clan ER PPC's just have a slightly longer duration to get the extra 5 damage. Laser / PPC damage also drop off (use attenuation for the excuse) pretty quickly past "effective" range. Pulse versions attenuate quicker than ER versions, et al. Now that coupled with...

Heating / Cooling. Running hot has penalties, granted we can't emulate the physiological effects on a mechwarrior. We can, however, simulate the effects of heat on computers / electronics easily. What happens when a computer starts overheating? It starts getting glitches, errors, locking up, et al. What happens when the targeting computer glitches? Less accuracy to start, but it goes downhill from there. Let's not beat around the bush with it either. You start overheating, your targeting reticule becomes progressively less useful up the scale. That'll cut back on "laser vomit" pretty quickly. The bonus being it can mess with all weapons, after all if the targeting computer is glitching due to heat that missile lock (long or short) might be useless. Clan targeting computer bonuses go in the tank. Locking the arms won't help because the reticle is useless so firing "iron sights" is pretty useless because there is no common "aim point" without the computer. That also nicely balances the size vs damage for ballistics in most cases.

Alphas: The alphas can be an issue, but it can be mitigated by a couple methods. For physical weapons in general (Gauss, other large ballistics) that run "cool", they would be hurt by alpha striking in the accuracy department. Recoil can be a -expletive-, and the larger the caliber, the larger the recoil. Alpha those AC's? Accuracy just went to pot. Alphas of energy weapons would cause large heat spikes, which would effect the mech's computers / electronics. That ECM mech is running too hot? The ECM computer will start glitching at some random point, not always the same, meaning the ECM might not work up to snuff. The targeting computer on that heavy will start displaying "bad" (lagging, out of date) information. That missile mech's target locks might be lost and need to be reacquired at a slower rate. All electronics are not happy when they start overheating, resistance rises in electrical terms, leading to longer recharge times for weapons. It should be noted, this isn't "ghost" heat or anything like that. This is simply the release of so much energy at once versus how much a mech can actually dissipate per second. This is the effects of that excess heat on equipment, other than ammo explosions.

That heat thing is a big deal: A mech generates X heat per second just existing. The game does this already. Y more for moving, variable a bit with speed, and the game does this already. Finally it can dissipate Z heat per second, the game implements this already. This is similar to tabletop Solaris VII rules. Where the game goes to pot is the effects of heat. If you go beyond that maximum heat, you might not get an instant shutdown. That's dependent upon how long it takes to come back down since a mech can overheat for a short period pretty easily. The problem is the game ignores the effect of heat on the equipment in the mech. A short burst of heat, not too far above "redline" probably wouldn't do much. Your car, my car, or the plane I rent, do not care about being a little too hot for short periods of time. You won't damage anything, things will return to normal fairly quickly once the overheating stops. Run it too hot for too long? Things start going wrong, and things literally start breaking. We don't have to limit it (or cause first) ammo explosions. How about the lines pop on a heat sink further reducing cooling efficiency? How about the Clan Targeting Computer Mk. "X" literally craps out on the mech and they lose the bonuses from it? How about that command console locks up? How about the ECM goes to pot and stops working correctly leaving the ECM mech intermittently vulnerable? How about a weapon stops functioning for X seconds, or until "repaired" after the battle if bad enough? Damage comes in all forms, and it needn't be limited to ammo explosions. This could be limitless, and offer some rather enhanced game functionality.

You could, in theory, have someone run around and tries to alpha until their mech literally comes apart at the seams. They probably won't live that long, even carrying zero ammo. Why? Things start breaking, and the higher you go off the scale, the more that has a chance of breaking. That means (using the Direstar from B33f) a mech probably wouldn't have 11 PPC's for very long. That first shot probably pops a bunch of stuff because the heat per second (HPS) is so wildly off the scale it literally starts melting things immediately versus taking two to three shots to be "killed by overheating" in game. "Riding the redline" isn't a great idea the whole time either. After all, what else might break when you pop above for that little bit? Maybe that first shot melts half of the PPC's right off the bat? A self correcting problem you might think. Then again what if it was 4 heatsink lines that popped off due to overheating and the targeting computer died, but all the PPC's are ok? A reinforced problem. It needs to be unpredictable, and the more unpredictable the better.

We don't need to nerf, we need to look at the source material and impacts. Right now overheat and (as long as it isn't too often) nothing really happens. Right now we treat LRM's indirect fired as direct fired. Both are wrong. Right now we try to combat "laser vomit" (or similar) by using "ghost" heat. We don't have to do that either.

[Russhuster]

in Tabletop times both the loss of knowledge on IS side and the more of technological development on clan side brought the greater power clantech had
with the redevelopment of that lost technologys (Lostech) like x-Pulse lasers double heat sinks artemis systems and rotary cannons this gap was closed a bit abd by using this star league tech level by com star troops on Tukkayid plus the strategy Focht and khan Ulric followed the clans were stopped at Tukkayid thats for the background

How to implement my short sugestion above in the MWO game:
The Advantage in Numbers and therefore Tonnage ( 12 Mechs DO have a greater weight than 10 for that matters)
so the IS company of 12 Mechs would have the numeric AND weight advantage what equals the little range op Calan weapons have
BUT Clan weapons have by its basic scripting here more heat and more burn time to deliver that 1 or two points more of damage when you translate the damage a Clan weapon gives per second and compare that to IS you would be surprised

I do fully agree with you quirks and moderate ones for that, should go to some few ( Hero ?) Mechs and shall not be spread through all IS like sweets on Carneval but even without these i do like my Heavy metal and my Boars head etc for my truly quirks wont even be needed there.

Iam with you in the Ballistic argumentation and that is translated quite well in MWO already with one Hook
UAC are extremely bugy UAC 20 fires very likely through the targetwith inflicting NO damage, that bug hangs on UAC throughout with the exception of the UAC 10 there i had not witnessed this bug yet,.. maybe just luck but who knows
but as a matter of fact these bugs need to be fixed badly

Gauss should keep the charge time bevore firing but should be the only weapon that does not explode at all when the charge time is kept, or explodes easyly when its stand on charged what ever way the developers choose

With the missiles i think the Clan has a disadvantage but that is ok for me one has to stand free and expose the mech to fire 20 missiles in a row while IS vomits a 20 missile stack at once
BUT
Missiles fired in the blue should when in a pulk spread more when locked up on a TAGed or NARCed Target they should do devastaively more damage on the point THat will give scouting a new quality
Bonus should be divided between Scout mech taht TAGed or NARCed and the MIssile Boat

Lasers could stay as they are the little distance Clan has more is an advantage but how fast is this closed up and in close fight the fewer heat an IS laser generates IS an advantage as well so heat advantage or range with heat penalty AND duration penalty what would you choose?
The Clan- PPCs have the fire through target Bug as well especially when you fire two in tandem pretty useless and annoying when you get the heat but no damage no? again There is a big need of Fixing these BUGS !
the Pulse lasers ARE a big plus for Clan with an X-Pulse Laser ( re discovered in the Starleague- Bibliotheca Cores by the GRay death Legion ) for the IS this could be a bit leveled

With the heat i do go conform with you BUT then a Clan double heat sink should be what the name says and not being nerfed to single IS heat sink capcity that needs two spaces instead of one Clan heat and ghostheat penalty is a joke not being able to fire more than two lagre lasers witout going to shutdown whilst stalkers and Thunderbolts cough volleys of six or more sounds a little odd no? - so much vor vomit builds

With overheating the target aimpoint should first flicker and 10% bevore shutdown maybe even vanish
when in the danger zone of 10% to heat shutdown maybe even the speed tweak and other skilltree bonusses should vanish until the heat is in moderate levels again
BUt at this point of Nerfing a clan engine does almost NO heat dessipation even when on the sheet there are heatsinks listed
you do not feel them working or be single at best

When you pile one group of players with bonuses over years
and the second group of players gets asskick after asskick with the Nerfhammer you spoil the fun out of one group very quickly thats why you get so quick into a game as Clanner fewer and ferwer do play in CW anymore and offside the events its even worse
Just a Game balance where both sides keep theyr fun will attrackt enough players for both clan And IS

There already IS a Marker in the Mechs Clan or NOt-Clan ( see the sorting function ion the Mechlab )
All one needs to do is adding a Mech dividing routine to the matchmaker Clan to one side Group of 10
vs Not-Clan to the other with a group of 12
In CW an adequate weight bonus for the IS dropdeck
then you do not need fuzzing around with quirks and Nerfs what brought not balance but a lot of anger and acount shutdowns amongst the players so far

[Inglix]

Russhuster, on 13 December 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:

in Tabletop times both the loss of knowledge on IS side and the more of technological development on clan side brought the greater power clantech had
with the redevelopment of that lost technologys (Lostech) like x-Pulse lasers double heat sinks artemis systems and rotary cannons this gap was closed a bit abd by using this star league tech level by com star troops on Tukkayid plus the strategy Focht and khan Ulric followed the clans were stopped at Tukkayid thats for the background

Yes, but even with "Star League" tech, they were pretty wildly outclassed. I do think many of your ideas have merit, and touch upon things I did not.

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How to implement my short sugestion above in the MWO game:
The Advantage in Numbers and therefore Tonnage ( 12 Mechs DO have a greater weight than 10 for that matters) so the IS company of 12 Mechs would have the numeric AND weight advantage what equals the little range op Calan weapons have
BUT Clan weapons have by its basic scripting here more heat and more burn time to deliver that 1 or two points more of damage when you translate the damage a Clan weapon gives per second and compare that to IS you would be surprised

First off, I'm talking "ideal" (no bugs) here. Heck we are not necessarily altering things wholesale from what they are in some cases. So, using purely made up numbers for easily viewable effect, an IS ER PPC takes 10 seconds to effect 10 points of damage while the clan version takes 15 seconds to attach 15 points of damage. (again, bloated numbers for effective viewing) That's probably a bit out of whack, but that's the starting point, where we can tweak each up and down. The Heat Per Second (HPS) is adjusted in the same manner. When fired, the clan weapon releases 1 point of HPS. 2 fired would double that. The IS ER PPC version actually has a higher HPS profile, releasing 1.5HPS while still having the lower damage profile. The IS non-ER version has a shorter fire time, but a lower damage and HPS profile. I don't think we should mess with HPS too much, it's what keeps mechs in line and not running around alpha striking everywhere all the time.

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I do fully agree with you quirks and moderate ones for that, should go to some few ( Hero ?) Mechs and shall not be spread through all IS like sweets on Carneval but even without these i do like my Heavy metal and my Boars head etc for my truly quirks wont even be needed there.

Except for special things, something mentioned like X personality (Rhonda Snord, Victor Davion, Hohiro Kurita, Nathaniel Armstrong, Daniel Allard, et al.) uses a mech has such and such a paint job from a sourcebook. Sarah's Jenner could easily be seen the same way. Another is Y mech (Highlander) has specially reinforced legs for DFA. One or two minor things that shouldn't really affect gameplay or alter mechanics to a large degree. Honestly, very few people would bother trying to leg a Highlander anyway. They're using story mechs (or a special cause in Sarah's case) to sell customs really, but I can't argue with it. After all, how many people want to pilot Black Widow's Warhammer or some other "Hero" mech? The point being the quirks are kept small, so as not to wildly affect gameplay.

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Iam with you in the Ballistic argumentation and that is translated quite well in MWO already with one Hook
UAC are extremely bugy UAC 20 fires very likely through the targetwith inflicting NO damage, that bug hangs on UAC throughout with the exception of the UAC 10 there i had not witnessed this bug yet,.. maybe just luck but who knows
but as a matter of fact these bugs need to be fixed badly

Agreed, and I'm talking about an ideal "no bug" scenario. So if the KGC fires off two AC/20's, it's going to scatter a bit from the recoil. All anyone has to do in real life to see this is watch an video of a WWII battleship firing it's guns. That recoil is pretty horrific, correct? So yeah, go ahead and alpha those AC/5's - it's going to be less accurate than single firing them. Newton's third law is a bit of a -expletive- to ballistic weapons.

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Gauss should keep the charge time bevore firing but should be the only weapon that does not explode at all when the charge time is kept, or explodes easyly when its stand on charged what ever way the developers choose

I don't think it'll be necessary if they institute the ballistic recoil effect properly. Go watch a video on a real life gauss rifle firing on a test stand. Also, let's have a decent plasma light effect for them. Gauss rifles work by vaporizing a thin piece of metal into charged plasma and then using magnets to move that plasma down the barrel. They are loud, ridiculously fast, and violent weapons and Newton's Third law will hamper their accuracy. They probably have a recoil almost as high (if not higher) as an AC/20. You will not have someone popping off 3 in an alpha strike accurately, or even two, EVER. If a person decides to keep a charge for firing it will inflict damage when hit. If they don't let it charge, "powered down" then it inflicts no damage when hit. Powered up it will fire instantly, powered down it will take "X" to charge it up for firing, "X" is coincidentally the same as recharge time between shots.

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With the missiles i think the Clan has a disadvantage but that is ok for me one has to stand free and expose the mech to fire 20 missiles in a row while IS vomits a 20 missile stack at once
BUT

Oh, you'll hear LRM boaters whine incessantly at how long it takes to fire off 40-80+ missiles. I suppose you could implement a system of "instant launch" but the HPS should just be ridiculous. Do you know how hot a missile / rocket at launch is? Ridiculously hot. We don't even attempt to fire 12 missiles in a split second with MLRS, it's staggered for that reason. Yes, this will impact missile boaters. No, I'm not going to feel bad. The gauss people (or laser people) won't like other points. We're balancing weapons based on realistic flaws, not made up reasons.

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Missiles fired in the blue should when in a pulk spread more when locked up on a TAGed or NARCed Target they should do devastaively more damage on the point THat will give scouting a new quality
Bonus should be divided between Scout mech taht TAGed or NARCed and the MIssile Boat

Missiles fired on a TAG or NARC lock are not "fired in the blind" i.e. indirect artillery. Laser (TAG) or beacon (NARC) guide the missiles to target. Missiles fired blind are artillery style splatter effect, with one point per missile LRMs is not a great choice. Of course I'd make the TAG itself light up like a Christmas tree. None of this "little" effect - you see the TAG laser bright and clear. Either that or it's affected by all sorts of battlefield headaches like smoke. NARC would still be affected by ECM, but you'd have to be close, possibly in counter mode. NARC on an ECM mech with a functional ECM would be worthless. We'll talk more about ECM lower. Indirect TAG / NARC fire would suffer a bit more from the AMS umbrella, but that's more due to the fact of flight time (e.g. the missiles are vulnerable for a longer period of time due to arc over) than the AMS actually getting a boost. Time to target being made important, and a direct shot of the missile is faster than a parabolic arc. The point being that it is still possible to cause a little damage with "blind" indirect artillery style LRM fire, good damage for "marked" (TAG / NARC) target indirect fire, but that is not as good as old-fashioned in your face direct missile fire.

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Lasers could stay as they are the little distance Clan has more is an advantage but how fast is this closed up and in close fight the fewer heat an IS laser generates IS an advantage as well so heat advantage or range with heat penalty AND duration penalty what would you choose?

That's why many Clan mechs mount a combination of longer range / less damage and shorter range but more damage. Mounting all one or the other (Clan or IS) will become a liability quick. Some mechs will have specialized designs: i.e. close quarters combat or sniping. Those specialized designs have built-in liabilities, and bonuses. Yeah, that dual AC/20 KGC seems cool, but when you look at the heat, recoil, and the fact it's not really powerful until you're on top of someone? You've got a long, slow, slog to get to the enemy. You're all ER Lasers? Well, you'd better hang back. Also, remember, we're talking HPS not just the outright heat a weapon generates. The IS might generate less HPS, but their heatsinks dissipate less HPS. The IS ER versions can also generate more HPS in time terms than Clan versions (see the above PPC example) create per second. The balance is built into itself. Heck, in the case of the IS ER PPC, you could argue that it's reversed incentive, unless you really want to the zero range or longer range. Pulse lasers are probably closest so you really needn't change them too much, just modify for HPS and the versions will be pretty close to the same as they already "pulse" when fired each pulse is worth X damage and Y HPS.

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The Clan- PPCs have the fire through target Bug as well especially when you fire two in tandem pretty useless and annoying when you get the heat but no damage no? again There is a big need of Fixing these BUGS !
the Pulse lasers ARE a big plus for Clan with an X-Pulse Laser ( re discovered in the Starleague- Bibliotheca Cores by the GRay death Legion ) for the IS this could be a bit leveled

The bugs, without a doubt, would have to be correct for this. You're turning weapon systems, as it stands, on it's head. You're applying a "penalty" for every shot in a sense. This isn't really a penalty per se, firing a weapon in real life has drawbacks. Still, this PPC bug might be fixed by moving it to the laser mechanic anyway! (double bonus) I'm not going to claim the mechanics I'm offering won't need to be tweaked, the weapons "duration" times for lasers / ppc's in particular will need to be worked with a LOT in testing. The point is to move it to an active system versus a passive one. Actions generate heat, weapons generate heat when fired, fire a lot of weapons and you get a lot of heat the cooling system has to try and dump and it probably can't keep up with that level of waste heat production.

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With the heat i do go conform with you BUT then a Clan double heat sink should be what the name says and not being nerfed to single IS heat sink capcity that needs two spaces instead of one Clan heat and ghostheat penalty is a joke not being able to fire more than two lagre lasers witout going to shutdown whilst stalkers and Thunderbolts cough volleys of six or more sounds a little odd no? - so much vor vomit builds

Ghost heat is gone. In fact I'd redo the whole table list in game to make sure HPS was visible on both the weapon and Dissipated Heat Per Second (DHPS) on the mech. You will almost never be able to Alpha without causing some problems. Not necessarily crippling problems, but starting from "0" heat, an Alpha will almost assuredly instantly push you over the top. The effects will be based on how far over the top, and how long you keep it there. Insta-shutdown (unless ridiculously off the charts, e.g. Direstar) is gone. Ammo explosions are not going to happen all the time, or even remotely all the time. Electrical glitches would be my first choice for low level effects: Targeting issues, ECM issues, Lagging movement from the controls, and so on building up to the "you've really gone past the redline so far / so long it isn't funny" meltdown. Speaking of which, can we have a meltdown effect?

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With overheating the target aimpoint should first flicker and 10% bevore shutdown maybe even vanish when in the danger zone of 10% to heat shutdown maybe even the speed tweak and other skilltree bonusses should vanish until the heat is in moderate levels again but at this point of Nerfing a clan engine does almost NO heat dessipation even when on the sheet there are heatsinks listed you do not feel them working or be single at best

The base heat level of any mech rises when the engine is hit. Basic game mechanic. Clans have (and it wouldn't be nerfed in HPS/DHPS) a bonus to cooling. They'd have less of an effect from an engine hit, but removing it completely would be ridiculously unbalanced. We aren't talking about taking out the heatsinks in the engine, it's the Tokomak shielding being damaged and the fusion reaction becoming unstable, thus generating unclean fusion radicals (radiation) and more heat. This could be doubly played up for all mechs again, since I forgot about the extra radiation. Again, we can't simulate it on the pilot, but we can simulate it on the electrical components. This would be far more subtle, however, and may not be worth the coding time. That could be worked in later, focus on getting the HPS / DHPS working first.

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When you pile one group of players with bonuses over years and the second group of players gets asskick after asskick with the Nerfhammer you spoil the fun out of one group very quickly thats why you get so quick into a game as Clanner fewer and ferwer do play in CW anymore and offside the events its even worse Just a Game balance where both sides keep theyr fun will attrackt enough players for both clan And IS

I'm all for taking the nerfbat away completely, but the Clanners will have to remember: You're literally designed OP. You're going to get a numbers penalty for being OP, and because of how the books portray clan warfare / tactics. That's going to be you, and you will be outnumbered. The rest of the weapon penalties really apply equally. You might only keep the ER PPC on target for 12 of the 15 seconds, but you've still applied 12 damage which was more than the IS could do, you did it at a lower HPS than the IS.

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There already IS a Marker in the Mechs Clan or NOt-Clan ( see the sorting function ion the Mechlab )
All one needs to do is adding a Mech dividing routine to the matchmaker Clan to one side Group of 10
vs Not-Clan to the other with a group of 12

Agreed, and it needs to be done. The exact number will come out in testing, it might be as low as 5 (one star) vs 12 depending on how the clan HPS works out. I'm not ruling that out, because it's eminently possible for them to be so OP using realistic scenarios that 5 really might equal 12 without the nerfbat.

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In CW an adequate weight bonus for the IS dropdeck then you do not need fuzzing around with quirks and Nerfs what brought not balance but a lot of anger and acount shutdowns amongst the players so far

Numbers and weight I'm guessing. I'm wouldn't want to touch CW until the basic (i.e. standard Assault / Skirmish) gameplay is tweaked properly. Until that is done, you're just going to end up ticking a LOT of people off because it's going to be insanely unbalanced at points. Literally, treat it as two separate scenarios to be solved - and take the time to make CW "worth" something. Even MPBT did that in a minor way. I'll leave that up to other people.

I love some of your ideas, and the ideas of others here. Meshing them neatly should be doable.

ECM. Oh for the hatred of ECM. No ECM shouldn't be a perfect shield. Since indirect, blind, artillery style fire is gone as a death dealer above anyway, so ECM changes can happen easily. You lose something, you get something. The range is shorter, but the effect is stronger. Stealth would be a separate system however. You wouldn't be able to "lock" an ECM mech, heck if he's close enough you can't target anything at all. You're cutoff, in Electronic Warfare (EW) terms. You wouldn't be able to lock anything under the short umbrella of ECM. You would always see a blob from the noise the ECM generates, but it's a decent sized blob so you'll have to hunt.

Counter can also be made useful. Ok, so you've got an ECM mech running around, and you can see the blob. Your team's ECM mech counters him, and the effects are mitigated. Heck he (the enemy ECM) lights up like a Christmas tree if they are LOS with the counter-ecm mech. Unfortunately, that means you're outputting a ton of power yourself, and lighting yourself up like a christmas tree. This makes it easier to lock onto the mech countering, but since we have blind indirect LRM's relegated to artillery splatter it isn't an instant death knell. Step into the open, however, and you might become the most juicy missile target on the map since you've just announced yourself to everyone.

The stealth system is just that, but the closer you get the easier you can lock and it can't disrupt. It does not appear on the scope, but it also doesn't block the targeting. You can target it, it does take a little longer to lock onto a mech with Null Signature System (just grabbed one at random from memory) vs an unshielded mech. Kind of like stealth isn't perfect when enough radar energy hits it in the air today. However the NSS user does see the blips of "radar" / "lidar" so he can try to maneuver around you, like the EWO in a B2. The problem being battlemechs move unlike radar installations. The problem for Clan mechs is that the Clans consider stealth systems dishonorable and do not make them. Fortunately, not many mechs use NSS. ECM's in counter mode can also light up a mech using NSS, at the cost of lighting themselves up. Balance.

Effects of high HPS overheating (somewhat random so it cannot be predicted by the player) by level - not a complete list:

Low level:

Glitchy interface (zoom, et al.)
Lagging target updates (enemy damage indicator)
Minimap / Battlegrid glitches
Targeting reticle slightly lags
BAP / NSS / ECM might glitch for a moment or two

Medium level:

Lagging to severely lagging target reticle
Minimap / Battlegrid offline
Energy weapon recharge slows (includes gauss)
BAP / NSS / ECM might glitch off completely for a short time (cooldown)
Ammo explosion risk (low probability)

High Level:

Weapons might literally start melting due to heat
Heatsinks losing functionality due to overwork e.g. "popping off the radiator hose"
Clan Targeting computer freezes, Command Consoles freeze
BAP's / NSS / ECMs are shorted out
Targeting reticle useless
Ammo explosion risk (decent chance)
Mech attempts shutdown (can override)
Possible engine damage

Ridiculous level:

Ammo explosion risk (high)
Heatsinks breakdown
Engines damaged (guarantee of 1 damage to the engine)
Weapons melt (some will at least)
Mech insta shuts down - cannot override until it hits medium level.

[Jack Spade Ward]

here's my solution

http://mwomercs.com/...r-clans-and-is/

[Inglix]

Spadejack, on 14 December 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

here's my solution

http://mwomercs.com/...r-clans-and-is/

Not bad, but I'd argue that you shouldn't limit it to 10-12. The clan mechs in the source material are so OP that it might have to go down to 5 vs 12. I don't really have information for CW stuff. I'd like to get the basics balanced first: skirmish and assault, then move on from there.

[Russhuster]

5 vs 12 is a ridiculous number the 10 vs 12 is chosen out of two reasons first Balance it allows 2 groups of 2 us mechs to take out one clan mech each by 2 vs 1 that gives 4 mechs free for the same tactics a.s.o
the second is lore
2 stars of 5 mechs each a Binary star against a Company consisting of three lances with four Mechs each

one should stay by the priciple of proportionality or at least with common sense
what kind of op should these 5 mechs be to stand a breath of a chance aganst 12 opponents?
even when you set up 5 atlasses against 12 locusts who do you think will win?

@inglix
In some of your points you are right but with the known bugs the situation is more than difficult for the clan players the number of usable chassis is very narrow No one is using Dires, exe, novas Lynxs Warhawk are very seldom even the ferret is a seldom guest not to speak of the Uller/Kitfox or gargoyle
ever seen somebody playing a summoner lately?

in addition to this the mentioned bugs are known for years now, Is there any sign of fixing?

and to your statement of heat and ghostheat

Are you able to explain the following

with a warhawk an 85 ton mech !!!
i cannot fire 4 PPK or 4 hplas without standing short before shutdown
to make this possible i needed to run the build with 10! extra heat sinks
so ghost heat IS definitely there
and a clan double heat sink that works at 1,1 is ja bad joke
why dont we use single heat siks for clan with 1 ( what is a joke because clan does not use single heat sinks but with 1.1 the clan double heat sinks are not much better that that but need 2 spaces )

with a Thunderbolt a 65 ton IS mech

iam able to fire even 5 a once and 4 even twice bevore getting even in a high heat area using just 4 heat sinks
so why is Clan op when a IS mech 20 tons lighter is more capable than the 20 ton heavier Clanner?

over all the bugs known for years now need to be fixed bevore any more and new Nerf is coming every month

Edited by Russhuster, 15 December 2015 - 01:25 AM.

[grayson marik]

this works

[Karl Streiger]

Russhuster, on 15 December 2015 - 12:31 AM, said:

why dont we use single heat siks for clan with 1 ( what is a joke because clan does not use single heat sinks but with 1.1 the clan double heat sinks are not much better that that but need 2 spaces )

check your math man!

[Russhuster]

i do know 1.1 is actually a slight bit more than 1 thats why i did write clan double heat sinks are not MUCH better
reading and understanding has its benifits you know ?

[Inglix]

Russhuster, on 15 December 2015 - 12:31 AM, said:

5 vs 12 is a ridiculous number the 10 vs 12 is chosen out of two reasons first Balance it allows 2 groups of 2 us mechs to take out one clan mech each by 2 vs 1 that gives 4 mechs free for the same tactics a.s.o the second is lore 2 stars of 5 mechs each a Binary star against a Company consisting of three lances with four Mechs each one should stay by the priciple of proportionality or at least with common sense what kind of op should these 5 mechs be to stand a breath of a chance aganst 12 opponents? even when you set up 5 atlasses against 12 locusts who do you think will win?

Take a mixed star, an Arctic Cheetah, a couple Stormcrows, a Timber Wolf, and a Dire Wolf. Remove all the headaches we have thus far like I've suggested (no ghost heat, et al.) and you could easily have Clan mechs so OP (as they were designed) that 1 star might really equal a company. I'm not ruling it out, and that's the point. I'm also not saying it will be that, it might be 10-12, but let's get moving toward the solution first.

Oh, and source material has plenty of times stars have annihilated whole companies.

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@inglix
In some of your points you are right but with the known bugs the situation is more than difficult for the clan players the number of usable chassis is very narrow No one is using Dires, exe, novas Lynxs Warhawk are very seldom even the ferret is a seldom guest not to speak of the Uller/Kitfox or gargoyle ever seen somebody playing a summoner lately?

Oh please, I see those mechs (particularly the dires and novas) in drops. Please note, im not saying there aren't bugs I'm just saying you're engaging in a bit of hyperbole about how NOBODY plays those clan mechs. I like the looks of IS mechs better. I have a couple clan mechs, but really I just like the IS mechs better, and this goes back to beta. Yet here I am arguing Clan should be (literally) OP as designed, but with serious limitations in other ways: namely drops. I'm saying the clan weapons will be more powerful, but they will have different drawbacks. You don't get something for nothing, ever, in life.

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in addition to this the mentioned bugs are known for years now, Is there any sign of fixing?

You won't get fixing until you A) hold feet to the fire, B ) stop demanding new features until bugs are squashed, and C) Clanners stop asking for the nerfbat too. We want to take away the nerfbat as a realistic idea, that has to apply to both sides.

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and to your statement of heat and ghostheat

Are you able to explain the following

with a warhawk an 85 ton mech !!! i cannot fire 4 PPK or 4 hplas without standing short before shutdown to make this possible i needed to run the build with 10! extra heat sinks so ghost heat IS definitely there and a clan double heat sink that works at 1,1 is ja bad joke why dont we use single heat siks for clan with 1 ( what is a joke because clan does not use single heat sinks but with 1.1 the clan double heat sinks are not much better that that but need 2 spaces )

with a Thunderbolt a 65 ton IS mech

iam able to fire even 5 a once and 4 even twice bevore getting even in a high heat area using just 4 heat sinks
so why is Clan op when a IS mech 20 tons lighter is more capable than the 20 ton heavier Clanner?

Umm, I'm the guy talking about scrapping ghost heat (heck the whole current heat model) and replacing it with an easily visible system: Heat Per Second (HPS) / Dissipated Heat Per Second (DHPS). Again, it's visible, you can see the weapon's HPS and the mechs current DHPS in the mech lab. Heat sinks would literally be book, marginally closer to Solaris VII rules of "close combat timing" for heat generation/dissipation. The thing you don't know for sure about heat is how your mech will react (exactly) once you get past redline. That's to ensure that players have multiple possible penalties that have real effects and are scaled to the extent of how far they blew past redline.

Quote

over all the bugs known for years now need to be fixed bevore any more and new Nerf is coming every month

Because the squeaky wheel gets the grease and nobody is really saying (in comparison) "Fix this!" versus just "The mech chassis X is too OP, that weapons system is OP, or that ECM is OP, NERF THEM! NERF THEM NOW!"

Instead we need to say: "Fix this bug!, replace the heat system with one that makes sense and is visible, ECM shouldn't be X it should be like ECM in life - stealth is different!, clan mechs are designed OP so adjust drop limits don't NERF them!"

I've seen this before, many (many) times in multiplayer games. The masses don't want to do anything but whine "X is OP! NERF it!" Developers will play the NERF game because it's "easier" to NERF than fix. We need to tell devs, en masse: No more nerfbat! Fix the problem!

[Tarl Cabot]

Lore-wise, Clan vs IS, it would have been bid down to a Star +1-2 Points 6-7 vs a IS company. But then neither side would have their customized mechs.

[Jack Spade Ward]

Inglix, on 14 December 2015 - 03:34 PM, said:

Not bad, but I'd argue that you shouldn't limit it to 10-12. The clan mechs in the source material are so OP that it might have to go down to 5 vs 12. I don't really have information for CW stuff. I'd like to get the basics balanced first: skirmish and assault, then move on from there.

Actually, my proposal is 20 IS vs 10 Clan

[Jack Spade Ward]

grayson marik, on 15 December 2015 - 01:37 AM, said:

this works

Ive readu your post, amazing... Very good ideia!!!!

[Karl Streiger]

Russhuster, on 15 December 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

i do know 1.1 is actually a slight bit more than 1 thats why i did write clan double heat sinks are not MUCH better
reading and understanding has its benifits you know ?

Quote

SHS internal capacity 1.20
SHS external capacity 1.20
SHS internal disipation 0.11
SHS external disipation 0.12

DHS internal capacity 2.00
DHS external capacity 1.50
DHS internal disipation 0.20
DHS external disipation 0.14

cDHS internal capacity 2.00
cDHS external capacity 1.10
cDHS internal disipation 0.20
cDHS external disipation 0.15

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4847428

because this poor Clams Mech is poor and because this OP IS Mechs had better heatsinks - again check your math before posting nonsense - there may people that believe you.

Spoiler

Mist Lynx - 7 internal 3 external cDHS
Heat Cap of 47,3 and dissipation of 1,8
vs
Com: 7 internal vs 3 external IS SHS
Heat Cap of 42 and dissipation of 1.13

of course you can argue:
that this IS Mech with IS SHS has the much better coolant rather than this, but we simple ignore this for the argue right?

Spoiler

Executioner 10 Internal 18 external cDHS (18t)
Heat Cap of 69,8 and dissipation of 4.7
Vs Boars Head with 10 Internal and 31 external SHS (31t)
for a Heat Cap of 79,2 and dissipation of 4.80
(PLS IGNORE)
WHK with 30 cDHS 10 internal 20 external
Heat cap of 72 and dissipation of 5

Edited by Karl Streiger, 16 December 2015 - 03:01 AM.