23 replies to this topic

[Gaussfather]

What's needed is to make an IS XL behave like a Clan XL.

Clans can keep their superior and lighter weapons. Game time to die will greatly improve with that one change.

All the quirks and nerfs have gone overboard and MWO has broken away from lore so much to make it a playable game that I don't see why anyone should be against a change like this.

The major benefit clans have is that they don't die according to TT rules when they lose a side torso and 20% of the XL engine. Why? I have no idea because its future space tech/science fiction.

But that is the major reason why IS mechs get stomped by the Clan mechs without big quirks and standard engine designs (e.g. Thunderbolt, Stalker, Wubshee are the main mechs people use in CW).

For example:

IS mech loses 1 side torso = speed reduced by 35%
Clan mech loses 1 side torse = speed reduced by 25%

Or whatever numbers people want to use. I'm tired of all the quirk/weapon tweaking that PGI is doing now... they themselves told us they were going AWAY from all the quirks and instead its just a new iteration of it + nerfed weapons and mechs.

I don't see why we can't have a new PTS with this one design change just to test out how people feel about it. Please PGI lets give it a try and get some feedback.

Thanks!

p.s. I know I'm not the only one suggesting this so hopefully if enough of us do so it will stick and we can at least try it.

[Void Angel]

[Adamski]

If nothing else, the weapon quirks keep the weapon & mech variety on the IS side much more diverse than on the Clan side. Or at least they will if PGI ever manages to figure out how to do regular iterative balance patches, instead of trying to balance the whole game all at once in one patch every patch.

[DoctorDetroit]

I think IS will be clearly dominating after the new patch. We probably do not need to touch the clan xl or IS xl at all.

[Lily from animove]

No Jaman, not every clanmechs is created equal, nor is every IS mech, so making both engines equal will not balance chassis amongst each others.

yet, truly, PGI should experiment a lot more around on PTS.

Edited by Lily from animove, 01 December 2015 - 02:24 AM.

[DivineEvil]

I will never stop to emphatise a single notion:

Clan mechs are not better than IS because they have better XL engines. Clan mechs are better because most if not all of their aspects are designed to be better in general.

Focusing on every single aspect across the dozen of others is meaningless and counter-productive. It will take an enormous amount of consecutive nerf and penalties to counteract, and in the end you'll only end up with all the variety between the two sides destroyed. If we allow all the possible values to be nerfed for Clan mechs and weapons, they still will be better for other intergral features, and if we allow to each of those intergal features to be penalized, then nobody will like to play Clans to begin with, using tech with potential benefits for a price of certain handicaps.

It is indeed the IS mechs, that has to obtain an feature or two, to equalize them with Clans, but I also don't think it supposed to be quirks; They are just not designed for that. Either way, equating engines, or anything else for that matter, is destructive, as it achieves the goal by reducing and removing unique flavors and qualities, rather than giving new qualities to the inferior side.

Edited by DivineEvil, 01 December 2015 - 03:14 AM.

[Bleary]

Well, the engine thing at least was never meant to be a unique quality. Clan 'Mechs are supposed to suffer significant penalties for losing side torsos. Even if you don't look at it from an IS vs Clan point of view, leaving Clan XLs with no meaningful disadvantages is going to be a huge handicap for every standard engine Clan 'Mech they release.

[DivineEvil]

Bleary, on 01 December 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

Well, the engine thing at least was never meant to be a unique quality. Clan 'Mechs are supposed to suffer significant penalties for losing side torsos. Even if you don't look at it from an IS vs Clan point of view, leaving Clan XLs with no meaningful disadvantages is going to be a huge handicap for every standard engine Clan 'Mech they release.

Why? Clan engines occupy less space, and thus can keep working when one ST is destroyed. They pay for it by being unable to change these engines around, because Clan Omnimechs are pre-built with the notion of engine being hard-wired into the frame and impossible to just pulled out of it, unlike IS mechs, which were built starting from the chassis, not from the engine. This is not a relation of engines, it is a relation of Omnimechs and Battlemechs. So the engine thing in effect has arrived as the unique quality of Omnimechs.

How are they're going to balance the Clan Battlemechs in relation to Xl engines is an open question, which is meaningless to discuss until we'd actully get some IIC to play with. Still, I have the same disdain towards those, as I had disdain towards Omnimech back in a day they were announced. If Clan Xl engines in IIC-Battlemechs will get the same benefits as Omnimechs currenly do, then we will get yet a new balance issue to figure out. We shall see.

Edited by DivineEvil, 01 December 2015 - 04:59 AM.

[Gaussfather]

Privet DivineEvil, I bought the IIc package because that is the "pay to win" future of MWO. Seriously, Clan engine & weapons plus IS flexibility?? Bring it on!

But I don't understand/agree with some of your points. From my game experience the XL issue is the following (I'm not going to worry about lore here):

First question: Why should any engine operate at if you lose 20% of it? Think of your car engine, a jet engine, or even a vacuum cleaner motor... It isn't logical, its just a made up science fiction story and therefore we shouldn't be a slave to it.

Current Clan XL behavior makes the Clan mechs much tougher to kill. The lighter XL engine allows Clan Mechs to carry more weapons which equals a higher Alpha and DPS.

To compete and have "balance" (whatever this means) an IS mech needs to have an XL engine also for most designs. Clan pilots know this and aim at the ST, usually knocking out the IS mech in 1 or 2 alphas, unless the pilot is very good and manages to torso twist effectively etc (think Griffin).

So, PGI can try to quirk/nerf out this major advantage that Clan mechs bring to the game. But I think that is a lost cause because it brings less diversity to the game -- aren't you tired of fighting Thunderbolt 5SS? -- and players build to the quirks instead of experimenting.

What I see now in the game compared to last year is severe laser boating. Why? Pinpoint accuracy, don't have to lead shots (low skill), high alpha, and not effected by ECM. And Omni mech ability allows mounting many energy hardpoints for most Clan mechs and the IS quirks really encourage laser boating for some all energy designs and high heat for ER PPCs means that you rarely see them. (BTW I think the Maruader should have gotten Awesome-like quirks for ER PPCs because you can't run 2 ER PPCs and be competitive without a high heat reduction except on the cold maps.)

So while I realize some people feel entitled to a "better" Clan mech in every aspect because of lore, I don't feel this way. I'm fine if IS mechs somehow acquired "more damage resistant XL engine technology from salvaged Clan mechs" or whatever story we want to use. Main thing is that the game will become MORE FUN to play for me and most players.

If PGI does improve IS XL engines then I think alot of the Nerfs that Clan weapons have been getting can be reversed, which would make many Clanners and me much happier.

So ALL I'M ASKING IS THAT WE TEST THE IDEA IN A FUTURE PTS, PLEASE PGI!

Edited by Jman88, 01 December 2015 - 06:46 AM.

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

ffs there are already multiple topics on this post there

http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light

durrr

its what IS gets, slightly lighter then a standard(25 percent lighter) , can survive side torso destruction tada sheesh

also IS gets

http://mwomercs.com/...90#entry4817290

armor the reduces laser damage egad

Edited by CuriousCabbitBlue, 01 December 2015 - 07:35 AM.

[Lily from animove]

DivineEvil, on 01 December 2015 - 03:11 AM, said:

I will never stop to emphatise a single notion:

Clan mechs are not better than IS because they have better XL engines. Clan mechs are better because most if not all of their aspects are designed to be better in general.

and thats where you aare wrong:

Stream AC's is NOT better than PPFLD
Longer beam durations are NOT better than shorter ones.
Less heat efficient lasers are NOT better.
Fixed equitpment is NOT better
Fixed armor and structure slots are NOT better.
Streamfire LRM are far away from better, but definitely at NOT better.
XL Engines are NOT more durable than STD Engines.

just 7 quick points of where your theory, is WRONG. or NOT right because this is far from "most if not all". It's different if you can not make these differences work on your IS mechs, well then sorry for you.

And what happens when IS gets their ER lasers? PGI just makes bandaid balance changes aroudn the meta, and what is aroudn that meta is just a victimg of "no one cares", All they do is fix an issue and creating another issue. They do not have a streamlined concept of balance that will work now, in short future or long future.

So PGI as you said now balances clantech down to omnimehc level. This will cause issues when the IIC's arrive, as well when the IS omnis arrive. Then they will again struggle to figure any balance out, because their current concept is metachassis vs metachassis balancing ontehcleel not chassilevel. So will they now every time a new meta mech is releasd change the ENTIRE tech again to balance this? Because thats what they will have to do with the current balance strategy.
Better would have been keeping the tehc differences and start balancing around the chassis. because everytime they add a new mech and it reveals to underperform or overperform they would only have to adjust the chassis instead the entire tech again.

But I guess whoever is in charge of balancing at PGI keeps his job busy and needed at all by this tactic.

@jman88

yeah true, you still see the same handfull of both chassis on both sides. The techchanges now equalised them more. But I donT see balance until I see a true difference in chassisvariety. And also weapon variety. Same mechs, same weapons all day. How can someone call these changes good that basically not changed this.

ECM changes balance nothing, because when I want to shoot the ecm mech and it's out of my BAP range it still carrie sit's jesus box. So of course you gonna use Ballistics or Lasers since they work equally well vs all mechs. But B's are heavy and not many mechs allow carrying them. There fore and especially paired with clanstream ballistics Lasers are one of the only choices most mechs of the lower weight classes do have.

so where are balance changes about this? nowhere. Focus of PGI is on the wrong things. When i think about mechs like MLX, LCT, IFR, CMD and all those of this ranges. Just sad.

Edited by Lily from animove, 01 December 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[DivineEvil]

Quote

First question: Why should any engine operate at if you lose 20% of it? Think of your car engine, a jet engine, or even a vacuum cleaner motor... It isn't logical, its just a made up science fiction story and therefore we shouldn't be a slave to it.

Because a Fusion Engine is not an Internal Combustion Engine. Fusion Engine is a core, where Hydrogen>Helium fusion is maintained, which is surrounded by a shell of shielding and supported by Heatsinks. If you destroy a part of that shielding, the engine will only be capable to maintain it's function by reducing the output. The difference is that IS XL engines are less volume-efficient, and destruction of the side-torso component leads to enough damage to knock it straight out of comission, and Clan XLs are not.

Quote

To compete and have "balance" (whatever this means) an IS mech needs to have an XL engine also for most designs. Clan pilots know this and aim at the ST, usually knocking out the IS mech in 1 or 2 alphas, unless the pilot is very good and manages to torso twist effectively etc (think Griffin).

It is not necessary to give IS the very same properties as CLans to make them balanced. As I've mentioned before, it's enough to just make IS generally sturdier.

I'm not standing for Clan superiority in any way. I'm standing for a balancing, which does not work against the differences, but against inequality as it is.


@Lily from animove

Quote

and thats where you aare wrong:

It's not me who's wrong. It's you, who do not understand the meaning of "most if not all"

Quote

Stream AC's is NOT better than PPFLD

Barely compensates for longer range and lower tonnage/size requirements.

Quote

Longer beam durations are NOT better than shorter ones.

Barely compensates for longer range, lower tonnage/size requirements and higher damage.

Quote

Less heat efficient lasers are NOT better.

Name me one Clan laser which is less heat efficient, than IS one.

Quote

Fixed equitpment is NOT better

Depends on the equipment.

Quote

Fixed amror and structure slots are NOT better.

If both take up half the space, and armor give more tonnage, yes, they are better.

Quote

Streamfire LRM are far away from better, but definately at NOT better.

WTF is that even meant? Do you even read your own stuff before posting it?
Streamfired LRM are better - they occupy half the tonnage and 1 slot less, and do not spread to the point where they just miss the intended target completely. C-LRMs are easier to spread where you want them, but IS-LRM volleys spread naturally.

Quote

XL Engines are NOTmore durable thean STD Engines.

Where's that coming from? I'm confused... but whatever, even so C-XL engines are not more durable. They just take 40% less space, while giving the same survivability as STD, safe for a second ST destruction, which is not that much an advantage for STD, as it just gives you 3-4 extra seconds to do almost nothing.

Quote

just 7 quick points of where your theory, is WRONG. or NOT right because this is far from "most if not all". It's different if you can not make these differences work on your IS mechs, well then sorry for you.

Just 7 quick answers to your flawed logic. So yeah, most if not all aspects of a mech is better in Omnimechs. Better profiles, better hitboxes, omnipod customisation, better upgrades, better weapons, better equipment and smaller heatsinks, all completely enCASEd, free of charge.

Quote

And what happens when IS gets their ER lasers?

Hm, not much. They will still deal less damage over shorter range. Your point?

Quote

So PGI as you said now balances clantech down to omnimehc level. This will cause issues when the IIC's arrive, as well when the IS omnis arrive. Then they will again struggle to figure any balance out, because their current concept is metachassis vs metachassis balancing ontehcleel not chassilevel. So will they now every time a new meta mech is releasd change the ENTIRE tech again to balance this? Because thats what they will have to do with the current balance strategy.Better would have been keeping the tehc differences and start balancing around the chassis. because everytime they add a new mech and it reveals to underperform or overperform they would only have to adjust the chassis instead the entire tech again.

But I guess whoever is in charge of balancing at PGI keeps his job busy and needed at all by this tactic.

And what of any of this gibberish has to do with me or with what I've said?

Edited by DivineEvil, 01 December 2015 - 09:24 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

Said many other places, but the way they should balance Clans to IS is Range v Damage.

Have Clan weapons do more consistent damage with a longer range (so shallow drop-off in damage, and a greater max range).

Have IS weapons do more damage with less range (so steep drop-off in damage at longer range).

Clan players will need to be more accurate and keep the IS players at a distance, like in lore. IS players will have to get up close to be effective, like in lore.

[Lily from animove]

DivineEvil, on 01 December 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

Because a Fusion Engine is not an Internal Combustion Engine. Fusion Engine is a core, where Hydrogen>Helium fusion is maintained, which is surrounded by a shell of shielding and supported by Heatsinks. If you destroy a part of that shielding, the engine will only be capable to maintain it's function by reducing the output. The difference is that IS XL engines are less volume-efficient, and destruction of the side-torso component leads to enough damage to knock it straight out of comission, and Clan XLs are not.

It is not necessary to give IS the very same properties as CLans to make them balanced. As I've mentioned before, it's enough to just make IS generally sturdier.

I'm not standing for Clan superiority in any way. I'm standing for a balancing, which does not work against the differences, but against inequality as it is.


@Lily from animove
It's not me who's wrong. It's you, who do not understand the meaning of "most if not all"

Barely compensates for longer range and lower tonnage/size requirements.

Barely compensates for longer range, lower tonnage/size requirements and higher damage.

Name me one Clan laser which is less heat efficient, than IS one.

Depends on the equipment.

If both take up half the space, and armor give more tonnage, yes, they are better.

WTF is that even meant? Do you even read your own stuff before posting it?
Streamfired LRM are better - they occupy half the tonnage and 1 slot less, and do not spread to the point where they just miss the intended target completely. C-LRMs are easier to spread where you want them, but IS-LRM volleys spread naturally.

Where's that coming from? I'm confused... but whatever, even so C-XL engines are not more durable. They just take 40% less space, while giving the same survivability as STD, safe for a second ST destruction, which is not that much an advantage for STD, as it just gives you 3-4 extra seconds to do almost nothing.

Just 7 quick answers to your flawed logic. So yeah, most if not all aspects of a mech is better in Omnimechs. Better profiles, better hitboxes, omnipod customisation, better upgrades, better weapons, better equipment and smaller heatsinks, all completely enCASEd, free of charge.

Hm, not much. They will still deal less damage over shorter range. Your point?

And what of any of this gibberish has to do with me or with what I've said?

most if not all, is definately not close to the MANY downsides currently exists, yes keep bending words.

this is a shooter, NVA pilots succesfully ply 10SPL builds, what crappy rnage huh? range is a matter of positioning, while hitting the same location with stream wepaons is in many situations not possible.

CERLL vs IS ERLL, JUST THE FIRST ON THE LIST + Is has the non ER verison available which is even more heat efficient.

but now running low on phone battery, so I don't have time for the rest of your nonsense unfortuntely, but figure it out yourself, the numbers are there, the rest is math + logic.

[DivineEvil]

Lily from animove, on 01 December 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

most if not all, is definately not close to the MANY downsides currently exists, yes keep bending words.

this is a shooter, NVA pilots succesfully ply 10SPL builds, what crappy rnage huh? range is a matter of positioning, while hitting the same location with stream wepaons is in many situations not possible.

CERLL vs IS ERLL, JUST THE FIRST ON THE LIST + Is has the non ER verison available which is even more heat efficient.

but now running low on phone battery, so I don't have time for the rest of your nonsense unfortuntely, but figure it out yourself, the numbers are there, the rest is math + logic.

Even if can call that as downsides. Having downsides does not makes weapon worse. What makes it worse is doing less for the same requirements.

None of IS mechs can even dream of equipping 10 SPLs, and even if they were able to, then every of those would be worse, than the one Clans are using.

Being able to hit the same location with burst-fire ballistics is a matter of leading skill, obtained trough experience. I had recently mastered Timber Wolfs for using them in MRBC, and I had no issues focusing the same component with any of Clan Autocannons. At the same time, no skill is capable of countering lower tonnage/space requirements, higher effective range and Ultra-Autocannon mechanics available for any caliber.

A weapon that weight less, fire further and deal more damage is not less heat-efficient. I'm not sure how much ******** you should be to ignore that fact.

I'll leave it to other community members to decide, who's spitting nonsense here.
Please don't come back.

[Eaerie]

I laugh a bit inside whenever someone states something along the lines of "it doesnt make sense and/or is science fiction" when playing or talking about a game that is NOT real.
Everything about mechwarrior is science fiction cause it really doesnt exist in a practical application.
fusion reactors small enough to mount in a mobile weapons platform-not real
guass and plasma weapons that are small enough to mount in said weapon platform-not real
speed of said plasma and guass weapons are way to slow.
a mobile weapons platform capable of articulated motion on a scale of a 100 ton mech-not even close to reality
the list goes on and on

so instead of applying the "it doesnt work that way in real life" to one aspect of the game "how the engines function" try suspending belief and play the game for what it is and work within the frame of the game or apply your reality check to all aspects of the game.

[Bleary]

DivineEvil, on 01 December 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

Why? Clan engines occupy less space, and thus can keep working when one ST is destroyed. They pay for it by being unable to change these engines around, because Clan Omnimechs are pre-built with the notion of engine being hard-wired into the frame and impossible to just pulled out of it, unlike IS mechs, which were built starting from the chassis, not from the engine. This is not a relation of engines, it is a relation of Omnimechs and Battlemechs. So the engine thing in effect has arrived as the unique quality of Omnimechs.

Conventional 'Mechs are like a P-51 Mustang, with the weapons built into the frame. OmniMechs are like an F-18, with weapons configured for the mission and mounted on interchangeable hardpoints. That's the difference. That's the only difference. Structure, engine, armor - those aren't put together a different way. Swapping engines isn't supposed to be any easier in an IS 'Mech than it is in an Omni.

And Clan XLs can still run with one ST destroyed, but losing half your engine shielding is supposed to mean you're walking around with a miniature sun leaking out of your chest. The equivalent penalty in MWO would be like losing 20-50% of your DPS after your ST blows. Nothing as mild as a speed reduction.

This is all background fluff; no reason PGI needs to pay attention to it. But you can't dispute nerfing Clan XLs with some argument about how they should 'logically work'. By the setting's logic, they don't work the way you're suggesting they should.

Edited by Bleary, 01 December 2015 - 08:54 PM.

[DivineEvil]

Quote

Conventional 'Mechs are like a P-51 Mustang, with the weapons built into the frame. OmniMechs are like an F-18, with weapons configured for the mission and mounted on interchangeable hardpoints. That's the difference. That's the only difference. Structure, engine, armor - those aren't put together a different way. Swapping engines isn't supposed to be any easier in an IS 'Mech than it is in an Omni.

False.

Despite their benefits in flexibility and maintenance, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics. OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech. -"Technical Readout: 2750", page 16

Thus while it's theoretically possible to modify structurual components, it at least would effectively hard-wire the omni-pod system and render omni-pod exchange impossible.

Quote

And Clan XLs can still run with one ST destroyed, but losing half your engine shielding is supposed to mean you're walking around with a miniature sun leaking out of your chest. The equivalent penalty in MWO would be like losing 20-50% of your DPS after your ST blows. Nothing as mild as a speed reduction.

How exactly losing 2 out of 10 crit-spaces the engine occupies is considered "losing half of your engine?"

Quote

This is all background fluff; no reason PGI needs to pay attention to it. But you can't dispute nerfing Clan XLs with some argument about how they should 'logically work'. By the setting's logic, they don't work the way you're suggesting they should.

It's an appeal to the original TT rules regarding critical damage to the engine, and these rules were made following the logic, which is not that far from how it is going to work in the near future.

Edited by DivineEvil, 02 December 2015 - 01:20 AM.

[Lily from animove]

DivineEvil, on 01 December 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

Even if can call that as downsides. Having downsides does not makes weapon worse. What makes it worse is doing less for the same requirements.

They don't do less, mny of them do just different, and differnt =/=less

DivineEvil, on 01 December 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

None of IS mechs can even dream of equipping 10 SPLs, and even if they were able to, then every of those would be worse, than the one Clans are using.

Clans have a higher alpha, both weapons have the same heat efficiency, Is SPLS have 33% less beam duration, and less range.

THATS not less, thats different. if you can't make this work for you, well your issue to see the advantage.

I would love to have IS meds on my NVA, but I guess I ahve to wait until the Black hawk-KU arrives.

DivineEvil, on 01 December 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

Being able to hit the same location with burst-fire ballistics is a matter of leading skill, obtained trough experience.

On a mech not twisting in the open, this is true, others than this NOT. If a mech hillpops or cornerpops, which constantly happens especially in CW, and then disappears before you second bullet arrives, GL luck trying "lead skills" the hill surely is going to reward you with some shiny landscape explosions. And with twisting, If your opponent can hide the section before you second bullet or more of them arrive of your stream, then your entire "leading" is non effective because you may still hit but not the necessary section. Why do you think no one uses CERLL? because their beamduration is so long, even the slowest sloth is able to spread damage due to the high beam duration. If someone with skill hill/cornerpops the amount of fire he eats is only a fraction, the rest of the beam goes into increasing your heat and the planetary climate.

DivineEvil, on 01 December 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

A weapon that weight less, fire further and deal more damage is not less heat-efficient. I'm not sure how much ******** you should be to ignore that fact.

yes because just dealing damage matters more than dealing the right damage at the right time in the right spot. Oh my dude.

[BlackHeroe]

Jman88, on 30 November 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

The major benefit clans have is that they don't die according to TT rules when they lose a side torso and 20% of the XL engine. Why? I have no idea because its future space tech/science fiction.

Ill clarify that for you its the same tech, but Clan XLs arent so big ^^

In BT TT its that every mech dies from 3 critical hits on engine (Clan & IS)
But so the IS Engine fills out 3 spots in side torsos it will implode then - the Clan XL not, cause its yust 2.
Mechs normally wont loose a full torso or both legs, or at least much rarer, but it will get easier 3 Engine hits (or Ammo Expl. which causing this)

In MWO we dont even have critical hits to engines!
But we will all die only through Engine destruction caused to full Torso death (1 Torso on IS XL - CT or 2 ST with clan = 3+ Engine hits)
- Or to cut off both legs / Head (in BT its harder to kill both legs too, but if you crit the head you can kill crit Cockpit Lifesupport)

Jman88, on 30 November 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

What's needed is to make an IS XL behave like a Clan XL.

IS mech loses 1 side torso = speed reduced by 35%
Clan mech loses 1 side torse = speed reduced by 25%

I would like that! Its already altered and through the point we cant hit Clan engines 3 times other then blow off full torsos, it would be right to do a same thing with IS. This given disadvantage in MWO to IS XL Engines isnt good.