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Why The Bad Reputation?


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#41 Kjudoon

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 05:57 AM

Davion was the benefactor of the "Stackpole Effect" and were the 'cool kids' of IS lore.

Then people started playing CW and learned quickly gamers were not as cool as lore was. As Joe pointed out, they were there to grab easy planets and make a rep. Then they learned how fast you can lose those planets and how much effort it took to hold on to territory. And then Ghost Dropping was exposed, and Davion was a leader in that tactic claiming it was fair. (Even more irritating than the Marik Light Rush that drove everyone crazy for most of CW1) Fixes came and were mixed results.

Then Wazan/Old Kentucky/Phact happened thanks to a broken algorhythm. All three worlds are now infested with Pandas and Arby's. Nobody knows where the Space Bacon and Bourbon vanished to. And during that word leaked out that PGI was giggling to themselves over what was going on between Marik and Davion players not realizing how it was cool on one level but harming the players of those factions.

Then the achievements started running out so the gamers, thanks to bad design, went off to unlock the rest of the 'achievements' on every other faction including clans and scattered to the winds. (This also happened in every single other faction) If planets were hard to take to pad stats, players went elsewhere. Just like quirks shoved around the meta, so did the quality of opponents from 'l33t' players claiming they weren't out to seal club. HAH!

Then Beta 2 happened, and everybody was struck down with severe apathy, plus other community disillusionments occurred (New Star League, Roadbeer's Island, NVKA forum trollfailpocalypse, Sealclubbing in extremis) Then Tukayyid 1. and a map reset.


If you're coming in, there is a long history of burnout (thanks to the 3 daily ceasefires rendering achievements moot unless you live on game or have a massive population) 2 hours of valid attack windows a day rendering 6 hours worthless and other horrifying development decisions and population shenanigans.

So Davion doesn't really have a bad reputation. Some of the people still there do, just as many units all about the game do. How does it get fixed? Nothing gets fixed till PGI rebuilds CW pretty much from the ground up with a complete and total logistics overlay strategy game on top Faction Warfare battles. That means you, and your unit are assets in game like a piece on the board. Planets have real reasons to be taken economically because they will affect things like mech prices, equipment prices, rearm and repair and more. WHen the players have more direct control over who fights where and who is an ally, we got a joke of diplomacy (See the current attempt to start a war between Marik and Liao by bored mercs).

Till then, all fixes are going to be no better than window dressing and at worse, burn out even more players on the edge of leaving the game for good.

Edited by Kjudoon, 22 December 2015 - 06:04 AM.


#42 Maxwell Albritten

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 02:24 PM

View PostScoops Kerensky, on 22 December 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:


Unfortunately CW 1 was where all the magic was and I still maintain that resetting the map probably 'killed' CW more than anything else. It's hard enough to care about dots that don't mean anything, doubly so with the knowledge that their colors will reset multiple times per year.


This is truth. The reset was madness. If there was an actual major update, like what may come in "Phase 3", then it would have been worth it. But the last two resets have happened for no reason.

I still find CW fights more entertaining than quick drops though.

#43 MischiefSC

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 05:34 PM

View PostScoops Kerensky, on 22 December 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:


Unfortunately CW 1 was where all the magic was and I still maintain that resetting the map probably 'killed' CW more than anything else. It's hard enough to care about dots that don't mean anything, doubly so with the knowledge that their colors will reset multiple times per year.


The problem then becomes that without a reset you'll end up with a steady migration that leaves the map utterly broken. Besides, there were big changes in the CW mechanics (like 1 world a day switching to 3, etc) that left it all pretty unbalanced.

The map will always need a reset periodically. Hopefully ever 24 months or the like when CW is 'finished'.

LOL. When CW is finished.

Sorry. Laughed so hard I lost my choo-choo.

Anyway. Map reset sucks only because CW is so utterly pointless that a vague sense of inertia and sunk cost fallacy was the closest thing to 'feeling worthwhile' that you could get. That's a special sort of sad all its own.

#44 Jack Booted Thug

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 03:37 PM

View PostTheArisen, on 03 December 2015 - 12:16 AM, said:

Dawnstealer hit the nail on the head. Davion currently doesn't have any big strong units. The occasional big merc unit but yeah.

Another thing is Davion pugs tend to bring Lrms, and in CW Lrms aren't the best (generally) to bring.

Tbh, I think the reputation is hyperbolic but it is what it is.


Definitively the lurms. Even after being told 1000 times to stop bringing lurms to CW they kept doing it (and it was not just the pugs, but many of their units) and then they raged about OP clan mechs when they continued to bring garbage.

It's like watching a kid run head first into a wall repeatedly, telling him not to, look at the result, and he won't stop. Eventually you just think... there is something really wrong with that kid.

Although, to their credit, there are a couple Davion units that have cut drastically down on the lurms in the last few months.

Edited by Jack Booted Thug, 25 December 2015 - 09:48 PM.


#45 C E Dwyer

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 01:34 PM

View PostPerfectDuck, on 14 December 2015 - 02:15 AM, said:

It also needs to be brought up that they're all clanners. They'll deny it, but Dear Coordinator sees through their ruse.



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Exceptionally good Emblem, and one that almost made me throw in with Draconis Combine, however I could never be one
because, while Federated Suns are Americanised Camelot and King Arthur, the DC are even worse, Americanised, Space Bushido.

While the Space ninja are one of only two houses staying true to the original 1980's creations, the other being Marik, I just couldn't

#46 Cracko

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 02:11 PM

maybe I'm missing something.. and a bit off topic..but the recruitment for houses on both side seem to me mostly in forums and online. Seems to me that if there was a good in game recruitment like of other mmo's
guilds, clans, houses etc that may help with cw's.. such as making better perks different houses (staying with game lore of course and especially now steam) such things in c-bills or what ever the gaming community has for idea's. Random battles are quicker to get into and maybe with more unit involvements through in game recruitment would help filling out houses and clans.. for instance giving a perk for an under populated house to fill ranks.. just a thought

Edited by Cracko, 26 December 2015 - 02:14 PM.


#47 H I A S

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 02:47 PM

I was Marik in CW1 and 12men Davions did Lightrushes against PUG's. Thats the reason why i dont like them (and Clan Wolf).

#48 Reitmeier

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:19 AM

1. Big talking in the beginning of CW 1 from their leadership where they had the numbers to ghostcap Liao/Kurita to death but after the numbers changed they disappeared instantly.

1.1 "New Starleague" case

1.2 allied with purple chickens in the end of CW1 to "teach" Kurita something but both failed horribly

2. New gamers/casuals seems to join either Davion or ClanWolf in the beginning so of course the lack of skill (in the mechlab and the battlefield).
-->Davionrule in Pug: "the team with the most davionplayers will always lose"

2.1 Lurmz!

3. We were davion once and this was the most horrible CW experience I ever had (Lurmz, hiding, friendly fire) when playing solo or in a small group.

But I have great respect for these guys that still showed up in CW1 even if they got crushed every night by kurita and didnt run away like most of them.

#49 Der Hesse

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Posted 06 January 2016 - 01:40 AM

View PostScoops Kerensky, on 22 December 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:


Unfortunately CW 1 was where all the magic was and I still maintain that resetting the map probably 'killed' CW more than anything else. It's hard enough to care about dots that don't mean anything, doubly so with the knowledge that their colors will reset multiple times per year.


This!

I am bashing Davion because of CW Phase 1. Everyone did defend against Clans with all their strength while beeing backstabbed by Davion and loosing numerous worlds to them before everybody decided to let the clans have what they want because they were OP anyways and punish Davion for what they did.

This brought up the term "Clan Davion" because in the eyes of many players they did help them a lot.

Also most veteran players that had fought OP Clans in numerous battles learned to play the game the hardest way possible. So when they turned to Davion they found an enemy that was way easier to defeat then Clanners. That´s why they were recognized as easy prey.

But right now it´s nothing more then a friendly joke from time to time. We all know Davion has good pilots too and even some good units. Greets to HHOD who i fought some times those days. ;)

#50 Lupis Volk

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 04:51 AM

I've had HHOD try to pick me up a day ago whine in Quick play. They liked my Cicada dodging death skills. it seems.

I mock Davion since from what i've seen their pugs make me look god tier,

Edited by Lupis Volk, 12 January 2016 - 04:51 AM.


#51 Fobhopper

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 02:54 PM

As a long time veteran of MWO, and pug'ling for Davion through CW1 and CW2, there has been a lot of reasons why Davion has a bad rep.

First off was back in the old days of early CW1, Davion being the furthest from the warzone (not our fault, just how the cookie crumbled) we couldn't really drop against clans (there was no bridge) so we did what anyone else would do. We 'ghost dropped' everywhere we could gobbling up other factions territory. And the 'Clan Davion' was a thing thanks to underhanded tactics and gobbling up other factions territory. The other houses gave up on fighting clans for the most part and all rallied against davion just before the battle of tukayyid 1 happened. By the time of BoT1, most of the 'leet' units either broke up or left to be merc/join other factions. And effectively Davion got their **** kicked in.

Then at the start of CW2, Davion was pretty much an empty shell. Other than a few loyal units, davion pretty much only had pugs to their name to make up the majority of their forces. Pugs tend to be uncoordinated, not have min/maxed mechs, and take sub-optimal or too many weapon groups to be effective. It also didnt help that a lot of the maps are heavily in the favor of Clan weapons which had anywhere from 20-40% more range than IS weapons. So from the outset davion got curb-stomped early to mid season of CW2. Things started to get more balanced after Quirkageddon 2: Electric Boogaloo happened. Clan mechs werent so overpowered, IS mechs got more optimized quirks to make them more useful, and another CW map got added that was not so heavily in favor of clan mechs. But by the end of CW2 and going into the BoT2, you had davion players who were getting better, and bringing better fitted mechs but we lack the strength and cohesiveness of actual units thanks to our massive pug population.

With CW3 around the corner, we will see how things go. But after the shake-up of the ReQuirkening is over, we have a massive influx of new players to the game with the steam release, as well as more mechs (with better optimizations for clan warfare, like the Warhammer and Marauder) things will start turning around (hopefully).

And as for those who want to pitch a ***** about davion players using LRM's. LRM's are a damn good weapon system, and can be incredibly effective. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the weapon system itself. Its just not currently 'meta' because of how incredibly strong lasers are in comparison (and the really big problem of laser alpha's that everyone has been bitching about, but dont have an answer too yet), and the mediocre usefulness of AC weapons in comparison to lasers has left everyone and their mother ******** bricks if they see someone who isnt running 3-5 large lasers set to alpha.
As others have said, LRM's have a learning curve, which plateaus for a bit and then goes into a second curve. The first curve being in how to use the system the correct way so that you can consistently hit targets. Which plateaus into knowing which mech to target with LRM's (like not wasting LRM's shooting light mechs, and looking for heavier and slower mechs that will take the full volley like KGC's and DireWolf's). Which leads to the second learning curve of understanding all the maps and which parts of the map you can LRM and which (and where walls are that you missiles will just be a waste) and being able to blindfire missiles that can still hit targets. LRM's just have a steeper learning curve compared to other weapons which are pretty simplistic. Lasers just have to keep the target painted, SRM's and AC weapons need to lead their target by so much depending on the distance. LRM's have to worry about walls and other terrain, ECM, target deprivation module, and that makes it a difficult weapon to make good use out of.

#52 ArmandTulsen

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 07:27 PM

View PostNeput Z34, on 09 December 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

3: The only Davin loyalist unit that put up tough fight, was the 66AL 66AH,


When was this?

Edited by ArmandTulsen, 23 March 2016 - 04:52 PM.


#53 Jack Booted Thug

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:02 AM

View PostFobhopper, on 20 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:


And as for those who want to pitch a ***** about davion players using LRM's. LRM's are a damn good weapon system, and can be incredibly effective.


They can, against really really bad pugs. But everything is effective against them isn't it?

#54 Koniving

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:17 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 20 December 2015 - 03:57 AM, said:


That was only at the beginning. Then the other Houses rallied and took a bite out of the Davions. We Marik took many worlds from the Davions and the Steiners.

At the start of CW1.
Posted Image

At the end of CW1.
Posted Image

Start and end of CW1 overlayed.
Posted Image

This brings up something that I think is important for gameplay variety.

I know it has nothing to do with lore, but to have some variety in events, I believe the Clan factions should appear in a different direction per invasion.

>.>
This will give other factions reasons to be 'invaded' and to have to fight off the Clans.

#55 MovinTarget

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:24 AM

People have brought this up, that they should add more clans and stick them on the southern fringe...

#56 DevlinCognito

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:46 AM

Spreading the few players we have even more? I think that would exacerbate the situation. I'd like to see Alliances actually mean something, for example:

Davion/Steiner
Marik/Liao
Kurita/FRR

You can form mixed groups with players from the Alliance to attack or defend, though the Faction whos border you're attacking on ALWAYS gets the planet or tag. That way Faction Alliances may actually mean something and it combines 2 Faction buckets.

#57 FaithBombCRNA

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 11:25 AM

The early days of CW had A LOT to do with the Davion rep. In those early days, the good guy syndrome, combined with not really yet understanding how CW would play out, meant Davion had a huge numbers advantage. Combined with the CW mechanic back then, which heavily favored numbers over anything else, they absolutely ran wild. There were evenings where they were fielding 6 or more organized 12-mans against 2 Liao ones, while still having enough manpower to hold down the fort on other fronts. Taking planets led them to getting very vocal for a while, even though their W/L wasn't that good.

Once CW got figured out, and the mechanics changed slightly, Davion withered. They lost their numerical superiority as players left for other fronts. Skilled players in particular realized that the meat of the game was elsewhere, and so Davion was left with diminished numbers, with much of their skill base gutted. Mix that in with their previous Davion Superiority Syndrome, and they became a target ripe for ridicule.

As the game has evolved and grown, all of the southern Houses have suffered a kind of brain-drain, as much of the die-hards flock to where the action is, the clan front. You're left with a disproportionately high percentage of weekend warriors and casual players in the south, while the tryhards have little or no lore loyalties, so they populate the clan front. It's the nature of the beast.

In short, you're kind of reaping the effects of players and events from years ago. For now, you can only try to group up, make connections, and try to help your fellow Arby's employees out in learning the game.

#58 MovinTarget

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 12:20 PM

View PostDevlinCognito, on 26 March 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

Spreading the few players we have even more? I think that would exacerbate the situation. I'd like to see Alliances actually mean something, for example:

Davion/Steiner
Marik/Liao
Kurita/FRR

You can form mixed groups with players from the Alliance to attack or defend, though the Faction whos border you're attacking on ALWAYS gets the planet or tag. That way Faction Alliances may actually mean something and it combines 2 Faction buckets.


Really like this idea though it would be fun if it were more fluid so that if enough players on perm contracts act in a certain way, old alliances can be broken and new ones forged...

Get crazy and open it up to clans... i mean, Wolf-in-exile got cozy with some IS factions early on...

Edited by MovinTarget, 27 March 2016 - 12:58 PM.


#59 DevlinCognito

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 03:21 PM

Aye, combine it with the (supposed) Loyalist voting for targets and we have a more dynamic CW with Loyalists given an actual role.

#60 Ductus Hase

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 10:37 AM

Davion isn´t weaker than Marik or Liao.
Actually Davion scored as high as Marik and Liao combined during the last two TUKs.





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