60 replies to this topic

[Foxfire kadrpg]

SHORT VERSION: In order to become a successful ESport, MWO will need 1) A way where spectators can quickly understand 'who is winning' when watching a match, 2) Player and team profile promotion.

I like the idea of Mechwarrior Online becoming an ESport, but I am not sure it's been properly discussed what makes a game into a successful ESport, let alone where MWO needs to go to become a successful one.

This will be a long post, since I must first introduce you to another franchise which, in my opinion, has become one of the most successful ESports. Note that the game I reference have been in the market for more than a decade, so by comparison, MWO has at least that many years to catch up.

The Starcraft franchise by Blizzard Entertainment has been in the market for roughly 17 years with tournaments run for the majority of it's life. The latest purse for World Championship Starcraft 2015 was $145,000 US, with sponsorship by members of the tech industry.
The game itself is a real time strategy game, meaning a player manages an ever-growing assortment of production facilities and combat forces while attempting to wipe out his opponent's. The 'trick' to the game is that any army can be defeated by a smaller, cheaper one that is composed of the right forces. (for example, 50 minerals spent on the Terran 'Hellion' is strongly favored against the same mount of minerals spent on the Zerg 'Zergling')
This, coupled with a fog of war that prevents a player from observing anything on the map his units do not have vision of leads to a strong information war, where players must scout, infer, feign, and make decisions quickly to control the situation.
Now, I ask that you take my word for the following: Should you pause a championship match in Starcraft, any fan of the game can quickly tell you "who is winning". The resources available, the tech researched, position on the map of either player, as well as the forces currently possessed are all very clear to the fan.

It is the clarity of information that makes Starcraft an easy game to spectate and cheer for.

Now, back to Mechwarrior Online. There are elements of strategy that could be fun to watch, but how to convey them? I have witnessed a couple of 'official tournaments' for MWO, and really had little idea who was winning until a few of the players were reported dead, and then simply guessed that numerical superiority would win from there on out.
This is the biggest challenge MWO has to becoming an ESport, and I don't have all the answers myself. How do we keep spectators well informed of every important part of a match?

Some ideas:
- The screen needs to have three parts.
- The largest, being a camera view of the battlefield centered on the space between the two closest opponents, and operated by 'seasoned players' who will decide when something else needs to be looked at.
- Next in size, a battlegrid map with numbered icons for each team member (red or blue triangles with a number in them to correspond to the third part of the screen, a roster list.
- A Roster list showing the name of a player, his mech abreivation, and maybe two numbers: total structure points, and total available alpha.

- When a player powers down, his icon should be grey.
- When a player is overheating, his icon should flash
- When a player is destroyed, his roster should grey out and icon disappear from the battlegrid.
- Available alpha needs to be updated dynamically

If the match can be easily conveyed to an audience, popularity will rise. I can't remember the last time I've played Starcraft, but the last time I've watched a highlevel match was roughly a few months ago, seeing Polt defeat Hydra in a thrilling seven game 'best of seven'.

One final note; promoted teams and players. This will be the hardest for us, if the venom soup of the forums is any indication. Popularity of a sport is increased if there is a human element to it's competition. Seeing a 'good game of football' is even more engaging if 'the home team' is also involved.
I don't know how we would select 'recognized teams' in MWO, but it would be nice if the team profile and player bios were available and touched upon for tournaments. I know I would want to watch any match involving Th3B33f, Bishop Steiner, Sarlac, or anyone else who's presence here has made me notice.

Anyway, I say this should be a 2017-2018 goal, and that 'game balance' is not the more important aspect of an eSport, being able to see who and what is going on easily IS.

[Lugh]

Sorry you can only have 2 spectators at once.

Minimally Via Product dictates ease of observation is hard...

[Aiden Skye]

[Foxfire kadrpg]

W A R K H A N, on 09 December 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

That's why I started with the
SHORT VERSION: [color=#959595]In order to become a successful ESport, MWO will need 1) A way where spectators can quickly understand 'who is winning' when watching a match, 2) Player and team profile promotion.[/color]

I don't like Text Walls either

[Antares102]

MWO will never be esports because there is now back-and-forth factor.
If you are behind chances are that you will be even more behind in the next minute because the enemy knows they are outnumbering you. Problem solution could be respawning, but before that happens the sun will swallow the earth.

Furthermore there is not a lot fun in watching positional trench-warfare like fighting when e.g. top tier MRBC units fighting OR watching death balls vaporizing themselfves within 45 sec.
Again due to you-die-you're-dead mechanics you either risks nothing or go one time all-in.
I guess respawning could also solve the deathball problem but we aint gettin' it.

I watched my share of SC2 esports .. many tournaments, world cups and stuff.
In SC2 players can come back and the most entertaining machtes were those over 45min when resources run dry
and its still an even match. In comparision i tried to watch a few MWO matches that were casted. Without the in-depth knowledge of MWO i would have had no idea what was going on... so boring as hell.
Only watched matches for tactical analysis of other units not for fun.

Edited by Antares102, 09 December 2015 - 12:24 PM.

[Foxfire kadrpg]

Antares102, on 09 December 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

*Well expressed opinion*

I once saw Root's CatZ transition from Swarmhost into Tempest by way of a neural parasite+drone.

[MrJeffers]

Lugh, on 09 December 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

Sorry you can only have 2 spectators at once.

Minimally Via Product dictates ease of observation is hard...

It only takes one person as an observer to stream the match and then any number can watch...

[Bishop Steiner]

Foxfire kadrpg, on 09 December 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

SHORT VERSION: In order to become a successful ESport, MWO will need 1) A way where spectators can quickly understand 'who is winning' when watching a match, 2) Player and team profile promotion.

I like the idea of Mechwarrior Online becoming an ESport, but I am not sure it's been properly discussed what makes a game into a successful ESport, let alone where MWO needs to go to become a successful one.

This will be a long post, since I must first introduce you to another franchise which, in my opinion, has become one of the most successful ESports. Note that the game I reference have been in the market for more than a decade, so by comparison, MWO has at least that many years to catch up.

The Starcraft franchise by Blizzard Entertainment has been in the market for roughly 17 years with tournaments run for the majority of it's life. The latest purse for World Championship Starcraft 2015 was $145,000 US, with sponsorship by members of the tech industry.
The game itself is a real time strategy game, meaning a player manages an ever-growing assortment of production facilities and combat forces while attempting to wipe out his opponent's. The 'trick' to the game is that any army can be defeated by a smaller, cheaper one that is composed of the right forces. (for example, 50 minerals spent on the Terran 'Hellion' is strongly favored against the same mount of minerals spent on the Zerg 'Zergling')
This, coupled with a fog of war that prevents a player from observing anything on the map his units do not have vision of leads to a strong information war, where players must scout, infer, feign, and make decisions quickly to control the situation.
Now, I ask that you take my word for the following: Should you pause a championship match in Starcraft, any fan of the game can quickly tell you "who is winning". The resources available, the tech researched, position on the map of either player, as well as the forces currently possessed are all very clear to the fan.

It is the clarity of information that makes Starcraft an easy game to spectate and cheer for.

Now, back to Mechwarrior Online. There are elements of strategy that could be fun to watch, but how to convey them? I have witnessed a couple of 'official tournaments' for MWO, and really had little idea who was winning until a few of the players were reported dead, and then simply guessed that numerical superiority would win from there on out.
This is the biggest challenge MWO has to becoming an ESport, and I don't have all the answers myself. How do we keep spectators well informed of every important part of a match?

Some ideas:
- The screen needs to have three parts.
- The largest, being a camera view of the battlefield centered on the space between the two closest opponents, and operated by 'seasoned players' who will decide when something else needs to be looked at.
- Next in size, a battlegrid map with numbered icons for each team member (red or blue triangles with a number in them to correspond to the third part of the screen, a roster list.
- A Roster list showing the name of a player, his mech abreivation, and maybe two numbers: total structure points, and total available alpha.

- When a player powers down, his icon should be grey.
- When a player is overheating, his icon should flash
- When a player is destroyed, his roster should grey out and icon disappear from the battlegrid.
- Available alpha needs to be updated dynamically

If the match can be easily conveyed to an audience, popularity will rise. I can't remember the last time I've played Starcraft, but the last time I've watched a highlevel match was roughly a few months ago, seeing Polt defeat Hydra in a thrilling seven game 'best of seven'.

One final note; promoted teams and players. This will be the hardest for us, if the venom soup of the forums is any indication. Popularity of a sport is increased if there is a human element to it's competition. Seeing a 'good game of football' is even more engaging if 'the home team' is also involved.
I don't know how we would select 'recognized teams' in MWO, but it would be nice if the team profile and player bios were available and touched upon for tournaments. I know I would want to watch any match involving Th3B33f, Bishop Steiner, Sarlac, or anyone else who's presence here has made me notice.

Anyway, I say this should be a 2017-2018 goal, and that 'game balance' is not the more important aspect of an eSport, being able to see who and what is going on easily IS.

before any of that? To be a successful esport, it needs a minimum of 10x it's current population. 100x would be better.

[Foxfire kadrpg]

Population count, game balancing, smooth running engine, there are a lot of things it would need that are a given.

I'm just saying (in a ridiculous length of words) that an esport needs to be something that is "Readable to an Audience"

[DarkMetalBlade]

Want this game to be an Esport? Implement a Solaris mode. /thread

[Johnny Z]

In all seriousness, the path to becoming a popular sport is organic. Tennis survives to this day from training for knights that didn't get either of the two killed. It will survive beyond many other sports because it is still an excellent competition between 2 players involving strength stamina agility etc.

For a game that wants spectators, just make great game. Easy to see on youtube and twitch whats popular for games and that's not even the final word on the subject because its all new but its the best one at the moment.

[Anjian]

Many game have come and gone on the esports venue, but they all share one thing in common.

They are big, very well known games with huge player bases: Street Fighter, Doom, Counterstrike, Halo, Battlefield, Call of Duty.

Biggest purse right now appears to be that of League of Legends.

Companies with deep purses like Wargaming.net hosts their own esports like for World of Tanks.

Other than being enormously popular, an esport game needs to be the following:

Simple enough that the audience can easily get whats going on, but enormously difficult for them to predict the outcome or the winner.

Exciting matches that go back and forth, winner only determined in the final end.

[Darian DelFord]

Good read, you made me laugh

MWO will NEVER be an E-Sport

That is a pipe dream of Russ's thinking that this game is one of the greats. And quite frankly that e-sport mentality is why MWO is in the predicament it is in at the moment.

They need to stop that line of thinking and start going the route of immersion, there is so much wasted potential in this franchise its not even funny

While fun it is not the above. It is simply the only mechwarrior game around, however in a few years.......

Edited by Darian DelFord, 09 December 2015 - 07:13 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Two common misconceptions about MWO and esports:

• "If you just have enough tournaments and spectator tools, MWO will be a major successful esport."
  
  
  Nah, this is a niche game with a significant portion of the population being old farts with no interest in competitive play. There's a very limited market for spectating competitive MWO players, because unlike StarCraft, LoL, CS:GO, etc, there's not a million teenagers with ambitions of becoming great MWO players.
  
• "There's no point trying to improve the esport aspect of MWO, because it'll never be a major esport."
  
  
  This is equally false. If MWO had a proper venue for esports, for example in the form of Solaris, then it would certainly be a massive boost to the competitive community. Since MWO is basically a PVP deathmatch game anyway, Solaris esport would be a relatively cheap way to keep those guys interested in the game. Ultimately, MWO seems to be bleeding high level competitive players, and on the other side of the spectrum, guys who prefer PVE to PVP are losing their patience too.
  The one-size-fits-all solution was ok for MWO at first, when everyone was just equally excited to see a new Mechwarrior game. But it won't be enough forever.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 10 December 2015 - 03:55 AM.

[Mycrus]

Why do ppl watch esports

- mechanics can easily be followed on screen
- skill is easily seen
- game can be picked up by anybody and just anybody will see how difficult a certain act is performed
- robust spectator tools

Mwo does not fit the bill in the state that it is in today...

[sycocys]

The most competitive matches of this game aren't really all that enjoying to watch from the side lines, its like watching a game of tabletop at a slightly faster pace.

But if you want to include the faster paced more exciting non-competetive matches - half the players involved can't even be bothered to watch their own matches. I think that in itself says a lot about how exciting it would be to watch this game being played by others.

[MechaBattler]

Darian DelFord, on 09 December 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

Good read, you made me laugh

MWO will NEVER be an E-Sport

That is a pipe dream of Russ's thinking that this game is one of the greats. And quite frankly that e-sport mentality is why MWO is in the predicament it is in at the moment.

They need to stop that line of thinking and start going the route of immersion, there is so much wasted potential in this franchise its not even funny

While fun it is not the above. It is simply the only mechwarrior game around, however in a few years.......

But they haven't done much to cater to the e-sport demographic. That update they did for the spectator mode was really it. Was there something else?

[Giving Em The Business]

OP: Have you seen the Steam release video?
It says "Dominate the galaxy in community warfare BETA 2"
Unless BETA Esports is a new thing, this conversation is way, way,way too early.

Edited by Giving Em The Business, 09 December 2015 - 07:56 PM.

[sycocys]

Are they going to reset into beta 2, which was just beta 1 with voip/lfg/insane dropship damage?

[FinnMcKool]

it would be cool, maybe Solaris would be a nice start.

oh and game mode voting , but of course would have to end. (seeing as that is the very worst thing this game has ever done)