316 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Ultimatum X, on 19 December 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

This would be a decent direction, let's tweet it to Russ.

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

aaaaaaaand......... .done

I certainly would not object to people signal boosting this to Russ by tweeting it to him @Russ_Bullock and to Niko at @HerbuRola . I mean, I don't wanna spam them, either, plus it's probably their day off. However, visibility helps.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 12:24 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

adamts01, on 19 December 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

It's not a bad idea, and it's better than what we have, but it seems like a band-aid. The weapon would stop being a shotgun, it would lose it's lovely ability to hit lights and would essentially be a worse AC with less pinpoint damage.

you can have one of two things realistically, a shotgun that is MEH at hitting lights (you hit, but barely focus any damage) and with laughable range, or a weapon that functions with some sort of spread but actually works at range, too.

I know which one I prefer, and what is more "lore accurate".

[Alistair Winter]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

I certainly would not object to people signal boosting this to Russ by tweeting it to him @Russ_Bullock and to Niko at @HerbuRola . I mean, I don't wanna spam them, either, plus it's probably their day off. However, visibility helps.

Pffft! Cancel Christmas! We need this in the game, stat!

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

I certainly would not object to people signal boosting this to Russ by tweeting it to him @Russ_Bullock and to Niko at @HerbuRola . I mean, I don't wanna spam them, either, plus it's probably their day off. However, visibility helps.

Niko? He back at MWO?

[Pariah Devalis]

If he isn't, then I'm sending it to the wrong person. >_>

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

If he isn't, then I'm sending it to the wrong person. >_>

Thought Niko and PGI parted ways after the Community Manager/Reddit Fiasco.....

[Evan20k]

I can't express my support enough of this idea with a simple 'Like', even if I don't really have anything major to add. It makes the LBX a more viable weapon while providing a meaningful tradeoff in comparison to the regular AC which is perfect in my book.

[Deathlike]

Nightmare1, on 19 December 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

If I remember correctly, didn't LBXs have a similar function in MW4?

I don't remember the exact function in MW4 - but that version of the LBX was the gold standard. It wasn't as good as a CUAC20 necessarily, but it was always worth the tonnage taken.

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

I certainly would not object to people signal boosting this to Russ by tweeting it to him @Russ_Bullock and to Niko at @HerbuRola . I mean, I don't wanna spam them, either, plus it's probably their day off. However, visibility helps.

Niko doesn't work @ PGI... it has been true for many many moons. Tina had been hired for a reason...

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

Thought Niko and PGI parted ways after the Community Manager/Reddit Fiasco.....

I don't believe that was immediate (it was maybe a month after that at best/worst).

Edited by Deathlike, 19 December 2015 - 12:28 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 19 December 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

I don't remember the exact function in MW4 - but that version of the LBX was the gold standard. It wasn't as good as a CUAC20 necessarily, but it was always worth the tonnage taken.




Niko doesn't work @ PGI... it has been true for many many moons.



I don't believe that was immediate (it was maybe a month after that at best/worst).

I really though LB-X in Microprose (cant say I recall mektek) MW4 was a giant shotty. Absolutely useless at range absolutely BRUTAL up close. My Usual city fighting load was a DUAL LB-20X Black Knight... knock anything off their feet with that double tap..then finish them off whilst they struggled to get back up.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

I really though LB-X in Microprose (cant say I recall mektek) MW4 was a giant shotty. Absolutely useless at range absolutely BRUTAL up close. My Usual city fighting load was a DUAL LB-20X Black Knight... knock anything off their feet with that double tap..then finish them off whilst they struggled to get back up.

MW4 Adder with an LB20X and an LB10X. Could knock anything sub 90 tons on its *** in one hit, and finish them in two more. Or my Warhawk with 2xLB20X, 2xERPPC, and an LB10x because apparently I wanted to give myself a migraine headache every time I shot while wearing headphones. Could alternate targets and deal with two assault mechs at one time, easy, due to the guaranteed knockdown. D:

A bit off topic, though.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

I really though LB-X in Microprose (cant say I recall mektek) MW4 was a giant shotty. Absolutely useless at range absolutely BRUTAL up close. My Usual city fighting load was a DUAL LB-20X Black Knight... knock anything off their feet with that double tap..then finish them off whilst they struggled to get back up.

Microprose was MW3 IIRC.

MW3's LBX did operate like a spread shotgun though (better knockdown when upclose).

MW4 didn't follow many/any of the base lore values (damage, range, etc.), but they made LBX10s and LBX20s always worth its weight (LBX5 was added by Mektek in MW4 Mercs IIRC).

Summoner with 360 degree torso twist with 2 LBX20s was just glorious.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 December 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

MW4 Adder with an LB20X and an LB10X. Could knock anything sub 90 tons on its *** in one hit, and finish them in two more. Or my Warhawk with 2xLB20X, 2xERPPC, and an LB10x because apparently I wanted to give myself a migraine headache every time I shot while wearing headphones. Could alternate targets and deal with two assault mechs at one time, easy, due to the guaranteed knockdown. D:

A bit off topic, though.

think my default solaris adder (only place I used it) was erppc, LB20X....... positively evil against every other light.

And....now returning to the actual topic of discussion!

Deathlike, on 19 December 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

Microprose was MW3 IIRC.

MW3's LBX did operate like a spread shotgun though (better knockdown when upclose).

MW4 didn't follow many/any of the base lore values (damage, range, etc.), but they made LBX10s and LBX20s always worth its weight (LBX5 was added by Mektek in MW4 Mercs IIRC).

Summoner with 360 degree torso twist with 2 LBX20s was just glorious.

I sure don't remember the Microsoft (yes, not prose, though I believe it was all actually microsoft) Summoner with a 360 twist....only machine the disc/original version that I recall that on was the Raven.

Heck was only playing my disc about 6 months ago... stupid windows 10!!!!

And while still talking the non Mektek version, it was a shotgun too.
(so not quite back on topic yet)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 December 2015 - 12:34 PM.

[adamts01]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

you can have one of two things realistically, a shotgun that is MEH at hitting lights (you hit, but barely focus any damage) and with laughable range, or a weapon that functions with some sort of spread but actually works at range, too.

I know which one I prefer, and what is more "lore accurate".

I'd rather keep it a shotgun, double the damage, or even triple it, and have it drastically fall off, more so than it does, to balance the damage. It would keep it's character. I have zero knowledge of any lore stuff.

[Bishop Steiner]

adamts01, on 19 December 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

I'd rather keep it a shotgun, double the damage, or even triple it, and have it drastically fall off, more so than it does, to balance the damage. It would keep it's character. I have zero knowledge of any lore stuff.

well, in point of..well..something,lol.... "keeping it's character" would be to make it work like it should..... in lore.

[Wintersdark]

The Problem:
People assume an LBX in MWO is equivilant to a Shotgun in FPS games.

The REALITY, however, is that while the LBX looks like a shotgun, it doesn't actually behave like one.

In an FPS game, a shotgun does substantially more damage than the equivilant rifle, but it spreads that damage. Thus, at close range, a shotgun is brutally effective (all the pellets hit the target = vastly more damage done) but effectiveness falls off with range. Fewer pellets hit, so damage done follows a curve through equal damage to less as range increases.

For an MWO LBX to be effective as per a shotgun, it needs to do more damage than the equivilant "rifle", the regular AC.

I don't understand why PGI has failed to "grok" to this. It's pretty basic, really.

It needs to do more damage in a total blast than an AC10, period, or it will always be objectively inferior, because spread is a disadvantage. The spread on an FPS shotgun isn't a bonus, it's what allows the damage to fall off the way it does. That it allows inaccuracy to still get some damage done is a side benefit but doesn't contribute to weapon balance.

So, if the LBX is to remain a true "shotgun", it simply MUST do more damage - substantially more.

---

The solution the esteemed Mr. Devalis suggests is then more probable. It emulates the lore in that the scatter is due to a flak style explosion as opposed to a shotgun blast. It also reduces randomization via spread. I'd be completely happy with this solution. It's also an existing mechanic that works fine as it stands, so the change would be trivial at best. Best of all, it's (finally!) causing the LBX to actually crit as well as an AC10 can. High crit rates don't really make up for <10 crit damage per pellet; the IS AC10 is a far superior weapon for actually destroying internal components than the LBX10 as it stands right now (yes, yes, things are different clan side due to multiple projectiles).

---

To be completely honest, I don't care anymore what is done. There are MANY ways to improve the LBX weapons. Simple damage increases would work, Mr. Devalis's suggestion would work.

But SOMETHING needs to be done, because it's a huge swaft of weapons that simply suck right now (despite being hugely fun to use); and worse, they're noob-traps. This, because noobs (see: Steamies!) expect a shotgun to work like an FPS shotgun, but that is far from the truth here. And a lot of stupid players seem to think LBX's are somehow more effective in the right circumstances and spread all sorts of misinformation resulting in players using what they think are the optimal weapons for a situation and not understanding they are gimping themselves.

(* There *IS* a circumstance where the LBX-10 is superior to the IS AC-10: Within 100m, when your target is already lacking armor in every component pellets hit - this is an extremely edge case, though, and as the AC10 is very nearly as effective there and dramatically more effective everywhere else, it doesn't come nearly close to balancing things)

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

I really though LB-X in Microprose (cant say I recall mektek) MW4 was a giant shotty. Absolutely useless at range absolutely BRUTAL up close. My Usual city fighting load was a DUAL LB-20X Black Knight... knock anything off their feet with that double tap..then finish them off whilst they struggled to get back up.

Microprose made MW3.

Microsoft made MW4 (until MekTek took over much later).

I don't remember MW4 being a buckshot, it always felt like a single slug to me...although I think the slug's damage increased as you got closer.

[InspectorG]

adamts01, on 19 December 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

I'd rather keep it a shotgun, double the damage, or even triple it, and have it drastically fall off, more so than it does, to balance the damage. It would keep it's character. I have zero knowledge of any lore stuff.

Pellets do 1 damage vs armor.
Pellets do 2 damage vs structure.
Reaches parity with UAC but under different situations.

Better crit chance and damage at 3 and 4.

Spread stays same but gets quirked. Same with velocity.

Easy fix for PGI to try.

[adamts01]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

well, in point of..well..something,lol.... "keeping it's character" would be to make it work like it should..... in lore.

That doesn't help.... Please tell me what it's all about in "lore." I know what a shotgun is, and I hear it always referred to as such, so that's what I'm going off of.

Edit: People always talk about slug ammo and such. Then it would turn in to just another AC. I like the Idea of a shotgun in game. Not an AC that damages like a PPC. Not to mention, shooting right between the legs at 100m would be a total miss with your system..... that's not cool.

Edited by adamts01, 19 December 2015 - 12:49 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

InspectorG, on 19 December 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

Pellets do 1 damage vs armor.
Pellets do 2 damage vs structure.
Reaches parity with UAC but under different situations.

Better crit chance and damage at 3 and 4.

Spread stays same but gets quirked. Same with velocity.

Easy fix for PGI to try.

Still worthless past 250 meters, though. Also relies on quirks. Good weapon balance needs to stay within the weapons, not some band aid quirk system applied to specific mechs. Those should be reserved for edge case mechs to bring them in line when they are slightly under or over performing.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 December 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 December 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

My Name is Bishop Steiner. And I approve this Message.

For several reasons:
1) It's better than we have now
2) It reuses an already existing game mechanic, enhancing likelihood of being considered.
3) It's SIMPLE, which again feed into likelihood of consideration/implementation
4) It allow sLB-Xs to actually be used EFFECTIVELY at the enhanced ranges that were part of the initial designs
5) It keeps them distinct and different from IS std ACs, and Clan UACs.
6) We can finally stake, cut the heads off of, and bury the abominations known as Clan ACs.
7) Numbers are easy to tweak and adjust to tune, if something feels a little off
8) It will be fun to watch the "switch ammo ONLY" grognards froth into their neckbeards.

Outside of giving the LBX a better crit potential (like it should) I have to agree with this proposal. There's just not a lot else that can be done to make LBX a decent weapon worth taking over a (U)AC. This goes double for the Clan version as its already plagued by multi-shot ACs and no one in their right mind would take ACs over UACs. Plus the fact that Clan ACs/LBX are supposed to be the same weapon with the ability to swap between ammunition (obviously a delay when swapping would have to be added, like causing the weapon to go into a cooldown) but that hasn't happened either.

Possible damage spread values:
5 - 3/1/1
10 - 6/2/2
15 - 10/2.5/2.5
20 - 14/3/3

or

5 - 3/1/1
10 - 7/1.5/1.5
15 - 11/2/2
20 - 15/2.5/2.5

I personally prefer the second one better.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 19 December 2015 - 12:52 PM.