29 replies to this topic

[Slapfish]

Hello!

I'm a new player and I am trying to work towards building a decent clan drop deck. I have 65 extra tons to work with but I really can't decide between the Hellbringer and the Ebon Jaguar. I was hoping I could get some insight from veteran pilots on what sets these mechs apart.

Thank you for your time!

[TheLuc]

Hi there Slpafish, to answer the question is that the Hellbringer has ECM and multiple energy slots, so it can pack on hell of a punch at the cost of heat but DPS ( damage per second ) It may be low, ECM shields you from getting targeted by those pesky LRMs ( Long Range Missiles )

the Ebon jaguar is more a low tech ( by clan standards ) versatile platform, forget about electronics to maximize firepower. The ebon jaguar is kinda jack of all trades heavy clan Mech so to speak.

hope it helps

[Hawk819]

No contest in my opinion: E.J. wins hands down. Carries more in weapons, and can field a lot more in weight as well. Plus it has a lower profile than the Hellbringer.

[Tarogato]

Imo, Hellbringer wins hands down. Decent hitboxes for spreading damage, good high hardpoints, high cockpit, and the ECM is invaluable. ECM allows you to win free trades when you poke because the enemy doesn't see a red dorito over your head.

The EBJ is a 65-ton Timberwolf, but it doesn't have ECM and it has a huge CT hitbox and rarely spreads damage, so it dies very easily. Also, the cockpit is low and the arms are wide, so the enemy can shoot you before you can shoot them no matter how you peek.

[Rekkon]

Both mechs have their place. The Hellbringer can equip ECM and has a better hit box, but it uses standard armor and internal structure, meaning the Ebon Jaguar has more available pod space (28.5 tons vs. 23.5 at max armor minus fractions). So if you want pure firepower, take the EJ. If you want a bit more utility and survivability, the Hellbringer is your machine. Both have a few good high mounted hard points. Ultimately it is a good idea to have both in your stable.

[Moldur]

I recommend the Ebon Jaguar. It has a protruding CT that you have to sort of guard, but it has such a wide variety of builds available to it, I really think you can find whatever you're looking for with it.

The Hellbringer was better before the gauss and ECM nerf. The standard build had most of its lasers on its left side (if you have the ECM + 3 energy hardpoints torso) with only a ballistic (usually gauss) and 1-2 energy on the right and middle. Nearly any hellbringer you encounter can be seriously gimped by taking out its left ST. It used to be more survivable because people might worry about the gauss, which would be on the right side, but now that gauss is so bad, there's basically nothing on the Hellbringer's right side that people have to worry about, making it easy to just focus the left ST and basically kill all of a Hellbringer's offensive capability. On paper it's survivable, but most people at mid and higher tiers probably know where to shoot it. I always focus the Left ST on hellbringers, because they're pretty much useless ones it's gone.

This is more or less the HBR build I'm talking about: HBR-PRIME

The gauss used to be a pretty good supplement since the lasers get hot, but now that it's so slow, it's not even worth the weight for a single gauss. Maybe I'll mess with mine and try to make more effective builds. I'm really hoping they bring gauss back, since they pretty much accidentally killed it.

Edited by Moldur, 25 December 2015 - 12:32 PM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

ECM notwithstanding, I think the EBJ does anything the HBR does, and does it better. ECM is a game changer, though.

So, early on in a mechwarrior's career, ECM will keep the LRMs away and cut down on the direct fire, so the mech may appear more survivable than it really is. By the time you're in tier 3, though, you'll find that more and more enemies can counter ECM on you, leaving you dodging LRMs without having had to do it before. Kind of a crutch, that ECM thing.

I bought all four EBJs and MASTERed 3, before I bought my first HBR (just finished BASICs last night). Got too used to ECM in my RVN-3L back in the day, and it still haunts me to this day. ACH didn't help that, either.

Neither one has the BEST hit boxes, but neither one is BAD. Either is playing second fiddle to the TBR, but both are fairly impressive for being 10 tons lighter than the game's top mech.

Think of this: If you are a hill humper, take the EBJ, and if you are a corner peeker, then take the HBR. HBR does the left-side asymmetric thing pretty well; you can pack 6 E hard points on the left side with the HBR-A head omnipod. You can do FIVE in the EBJ, too. For up-top hill hump, you get one E spot in the HBR (and it's head, so only one slot), but two in the EBJ's LT (dat crit space tho).

Also, if you're a missile fanatic, you want the EBJ.

[Jun Watarase]

Hellbringer can only run one build which is laser vomit. It simply doesnt have the tonnage to run ballistics or missiles, and it only has a max of 2 missile slots. And the ECM LT is basically mandatory. Its a one trick pony.

[Leone]

So... apparently you have never met the GaussBringer. You are lucky, granted, gauss was nerfed, so I've not brought it out much recently.

~Leone.

[Inveramsay]

Both got gimped by the gauss nerf but the hbr got hit worse as gaussvom was the best build for it. The ebon does laservom better but ecm is not to be sniffed at. Either is a good choice to be honest, neither is a timberwolf but I do better in the ebon

[Fulgar]

I haven't piloted the EBJ much other than the trial mech currently in the lineup. Fun mech as has been mentioned decent hitbox and really good armament for its size. I choose the Hellbringer absolutely because of the ECM even knowing the nerf was coming.

As has been mentioned the Hellbringer Prime does laser vomit well, however, I choose to go with 2xUAC/5 and 3xCMPL, plus ECM. Fun mech and when you are running with team mates and are coordinated mega fun to play. Doesn't do a tremendous amount of damage but seems to get 1/2 kills per match.

All in all, fun mech to play.

Thanks,
Fulgar

[Moebius Pi]

As a new player, and from that type of POV... Ebon Jaguar.

I personally perform better in Hellbringers, however as people as said its primary build isn't really what it once was, and alternatives can be a bit on the dodgy side for pinpoint hits vs ones more readily spread substituting UACs etc. (though definitely still usable especially blindsiding folks under ecm cover). To reiterate what others have said, it is still pretty easy to neuter the majority of popular builds it uses.

So why the Ebon Jaguar? As some have said, it's a jack of all trades. One without any negative quirks at that.

You're not likely to get bored with it as it has a -lot- of builds and diverse loadouts it can pack while still still being effective. You don't end up feeling shoehorned into one or two builds. It is fairly fragile (I tend to call them Ebon Jaegers for a reason), but in the long term you don't come up short trying to work with a lack of slots compared to many Omnis. You can run it asymetric, lower mounted and lower profile, or hillhumper if you're cautious.

I wouldn't feel like the Jaguar was gimped with a weapon rebalance given its options. It can adapt very easily.

Not so much with the Hellbringer where folks are already having trouble getting used to not relying on the older builds as heavily. ECM is still -very- nice, but as someone new to the game? I wouldn't really suggest a mech that becomes a one trick pony too easily even when switching omnipods around. I'd want something I could practice with in various loadouts that was still solid even if ECM got rejiggered (which is likely in the future) or one weapon got nerfed.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Simple question: DO you want your 65-ton mech to have ECM?

Yes- HBR
No- EBJ

HBR's hitboxes are not QUITE as good. It does asymmetric laser vomit pretty well (-PRIME LT, -A LA, -A H, gives you SIX (6) E hard points, 5 VERY left of center). That and ECM are its only real advantages over EBJ, though it is not bad in/of itself. It's a pretty good mech. I'd take it over the MDD for anything other than missile-carrying, and over the Summoner for ANYTHING AT ALL.

That said, EBJ is lower, has less clearly-defined torso hitboxes, shorter legs, and GREAT mounts for hill humping or corner peeking. Can't QUITE do the compact packaging of lasers for asymmetric laser vomit builds as well as HBR, but it CAN build asymm. And it can pack up to 8 E hard points at a time, or 3 B ones (RA, LA, RT), or 4 M ones (LA, RA, LT, RT), or some combination of these. It did GREAT at hill humping Gauss vomit, with the weapons in the high torso mounts. It can also do low-mouted versions of that, or swap the Gauss for an AC/10 and more of ... really, more of ANYTHING else.

Given the choice, I'd prefer the EBJ UNLESS you really want that ECM in the deck. In my case, I've been running 3x EBJ and 1x SCR until recently, when I swapped one EBJ for a HBR.

[Tarogato]

Jun Watarase, on 26 December 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

Hellbringer can only run one build which is laser vomit. It simply doesnt have the tonnage to run ballistics or missiles, and it only has a max of 2 missile slots. And the ECM LT is basically mandatory. Its a one trick pony.

lolwut?

LRMbringer for people who can't aim: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0c61c2811dc2145

Gaussbringer: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c6cf64d207e28be

Dakkabringer: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e5f745e31cee4f8

Brawlbringer: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a245df275688cc2 (not advised, but you could pull it off, it has the tonnage)

None of these are as good as laservomit right now, but similar can be said for the Cauldron Born anyways.

[_____]

The dual UAC5 build Tarogato linked works pretty well for me since the Gauss nerf. 1 ton less ammo for me though, 5 is more than enough for the public queue. In CW if I go through 5 tons, that means I'm not dying and my team's doing pretty well, so I just get a different mech.

[Michal R]

LOKI is your choice.
For me best Clan heavy.
ECM gives him huge advantage.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

I did the BASICs on my HBR-PRIME with Tarogato's Dakkabringer build, more or less, in PUG. Cut the ammo to 4.5 tons, full leg armor (5 per arm), and one more heat sink IIRC. Worked really well. Not a HUGE alpha on paper, but DAT DAKKA THO...

In PUG, and especially in PUG at my lowly tier, the ECM keeps your opponents from getting the computer-aided insta-recognize on you, and if you're quick, then by the time they realize you're there they're already getting mad screen shake. I dunno what it is, but Clan UACs bring in the damage, too.

[rolly]

I have to say I love the Loki. Its a swiss army for our Lance and usually the support/ECM command mech. I use it as a heavy backup for Assaults too since it is big enough to lay down an impressive amount of firepower. But bring the bacon. This thing will fry you easily.

I have only limited Trial experience with the Ebon Jag, I enjoy it and its got a lot more room to work with for firepower. The glaring issue with it is that huge nubby nose. When shooting at them they simply cannot protect that CT and I've gutted more than one when he attempted to twist away and I cut the nose off in perfect profile. At least with the Loki/Hellbringer I can twist and not present a full target. That being said being in a Loki/Hellbringer makes you a higher profile target in my opinion.

So TL:DR - Support/Firepower/Heat and good hitboxes, or more bang for your buck. Its really up to you and your play style.

[Steel Raven]

[Natred]

6 medium pulse lasers plus ecm and heat sinks is pretty fun on the hellbringer, actually very effective. 2 on the arms and 3 on the left torso and 1 on the CT. Have to be very mindful of heat. Also experimenting with a 3 large laser build for faction play.