Jump to content

Congrats On Lore Keeping


25 replies to this topic

#1 Liam Salem

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 23 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 13 January 2016 - 09:16 AM

After so many nerfs with already UBERLY nerfed clan mechs, PGI has finally accomplished their goal of giving IS the edge they needed to be able to beat clan mechs.

I hope they realize all they've done is lowered the quality of any skill required to actually pilot an IS mech. Hell, we're even losing clans to the IS because frankly, PGI has no idea how to fairly do clan mechs. Does that mean there aren't skilled IS pilots? Hell, f***ing no. And if any clan-side person truly believes that, you're a moron. But I do believe the balancing that's going on will make it so that new pilots won't reach the quality the old ones have because frankly, PGI has made it so that the clan mechs are behaving like IS lore mechs and IS mechs behave like lore clan mechs. Clan mechs are supposed to run cooler, do more damage, be smaller and have a technological edge because they never lost their Star League technology curve. The IS did...several times over.

Anyone who ACTUALLY READ the lore would know that clanners disposed of any mech the moment it developed any quirks AND any inner sphere mech, after the clans invaded, would have had the chance to get clan tech on it, should any of it be captured by their house. Also, the way the weapons work is TOTALLY WRONG. On both clan side and IS. Gauss rifles DO NOT NEED TO CHARGE BEFORE SHOOTING. They just fire. Regular PPC's have capacitors you can turn off to fire with no minimum range, at the risk of exploding the PPC. Autocannons fire TWO SOLID SLUGS without jamming, the third one auto jamming the weapon. Clan ER PPC's do 15 damage. All PPC's technically do BURN damage after they hit.

So I'll finish with this: Quit claiming to keep with the lore PGI and just admit you've made a game that is to your vision of the game.

Do I enjoy MWO? Yes. Very much so. It's a good game. But don't lie to the community, continually, that you're keeping to lore when it's blatantly obvious you haven't. That's all I ask. Just post links to Sarna if you want people to enjoy reading the lore, versus putting up the chunks from the books you guys enjoy. Not much on clans it seems. Kind of displays the favoritism to IS if you ask me...

EDIT: accidently early clicked. I'll cut it off where I did but just a rant to get out some frustrations. RL stuff pissing me off so I figure I'll gripe about something that'll relieve stress without causing any problems that'll effect anyones life ^.^

Edited by Liam Salem, 13 January 2016 - 09:18 AM.


#2 Duvanor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 477 posts

Posted 13 January 2016 - 09:40 AM

Well, they stick to the lore whereever they can, but this is a PvP game. As it is, there are just two ways of balancing.

1.: Make Clanmechs better and give a numerical/weight advantage to the IS.
2.: Make IS Mechs as good as Clanmechs.

1 is no option as long as we have mixed factions in public games. And I for one do not want them to change that.

#3 Naglinator

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • Mercenary
  • 975 posts
  • LocationStrana Mechty

Posted 13 January 2016 - 10:51 AM

I actually like the balance when the clans first came out. That extra range was awesome sauce :) Well one day when PGI realizes that the mechs BV is more important then tonnage and uses that to balances sides then maybe we can have the game we want. 'cause seriously how's a CPT-C1 worth more then any stormcrow just cause it weighs more? Giving the CPT a BV or 3 and the stormcrow like a 3.5 makes more sense(arbitrary numbers people, chill). I believe Warthunder uses a BV type system as well as tiers.

#4 Lupis Volk

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • Mercenary
  • 2,126 posts
  • LocationIn the cockpit of the nearest Light Battlemech.

Posted 13 January 2016 - 01:54 PM

I'm stumped why it's always clan wolf that cries foul. Is it because all your big units have left and now you can't hold your weight now?

There are OP and UP mechs on both sides.

#5 Odanan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 8,198 posts
  • LocationBrazil

Posted 13 January 2016 - 02:09 PM

View PostDuvanor, on 13 January 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well, they stick to the lore whereever they can, but this is a PvP game. As it is, there are just two ways of balancing.

1.: Make Clanmechs better and give a numerical/weight advantage to the IS.
2.: Make IS Mechs as good as Clanmechs.

1 is no option as long as we have mixed factions in public games. And I for one do not want them to change that.

This, this and this. ^
I can't like it more.

#6 Lupis Volk

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • Mercenary
  • 2,126 posts
  • LocationIn the cockpit of the nearest Light Battlemech.

Posted 13 January 2016 - 02:17 PM

View PostDuvanor, on 13 January 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well, they stick to the lore whereever they can, but this is a PvP game. As it is, there are just two ways of balancing.

1.: Make Clanmechs better and give a numerical/weight advantage to the IS.
2.: Make IS Mechs as good as Clanmechs.

1 is no option as long as we have mixed factions in public games. And I for one do not want them to change that.

if they did either of those Clanners would still complain. It seems like that's bred into them.

#7 Oethe

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 81 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted 19 January 2016 - 11:07 AM

We would still complain? You mean like how when they brought up nerfing Clan Mechs at the launch of them that we stated give the Inner Sphere numerical advantage and knock us down to two stars for they got two extras?

Like how that never happened and we are now at the point we are and no doubt, eventually will get that restriction anyway?

#8 Czarr

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Ogre
  • The Ogre
  • 414 posts

Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:06 PM

Wait a minute...

if you want PGI to make a more lore based game that would mean also preventing merc units from joining clans

#9 Naglinator

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • Mercenary
  • 975 posts
  • LocationStrana Mechty

Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:14 PM

View PostCzarr, on 19 January 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

Wait a minute...

if you want PGI to make a more lore based game that would mean also preventing merc units from joining clans

Dear Kerensky, that's all i ask for!

#10 MovinTarget

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Field Marshal
  • Field Marshal
  • 3,831 posts
  • LocationGreen Acres

Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:18 PM

Seriously, the last thing you need is some uppity mercs all up in yo' craw...

#11 Havyek

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary Rank 3
  • 1,349 posts
  • LocationBarrie, ON

Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:28 PM

More "this PvP computer game isn't like the table top!" crap?

Yes, a BV system would be nice.

Yes Clans fighting IS 10v12 would be nice.

No we can't do that in quick play

No there isn't enough CW population to make it worthwhile.

No PGI can't restrict mercs from signing Clan contracts (if they do I'll be getting a refund for the $500+ I've spent on Clan 'Mech packs, and I doubt I'll be alone).

Look at the CW Phase 3 plans before you start to scream and kick about Clan 'Mechs being so UP, and look more closely where you're shooting, because if you still think that Clan 'Mechs are under powered you're doing it wrong.

#12 Naglinator

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • Mercenary
  • 975 posts
  • LocationStrana Mechty

Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:47 PM

Goodness knows why merc scum keeps posting in the clan forums but it's not like there aren't OTHER games which have imbalances in vehicles. Like i said War thunder has a BV system and it works fine for me. German tanks have great guns, russian tanks great armour and guns, so on and so forth. There isn't enough CW population because CW has been crappily implemented now twice. I have little faith for the third.

#13 DJFrost

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • IS Exemplar
  • IS Exemplar
  • 171 posts
  • LocationOntario

Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:52 PM

Clans are losing due to unskilled players, not mech quirks. There are a high number of new players in clan accounts it seems, and honestly, it shows in matches. 48-10 stomps on the regular is just horrible. Clan needs more organization, and more vet players taking control of pugs.

I get the same results in cw whether i play clan or IS accounts, so anyone saying IS is over powered needs to go back to pilot class.

Also, CW needs a training run before drops are allowed. Too many coming in and not even knowing what the objectives are, let alone that they can pilot 4 mechs in one match....

Really, would be nice to see one month with NO quirks on mechs and see how things go.

#14 Naglinator

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • Mercenary
  • 975 posts
  • LocationStrana Mechty

Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:56 PM

Yeah the run of the mill spheroid is just as awful as the run of the mill clanner. Only the mercs upset this balance.

#15 Koniving

    Welcoming Committee

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Guide
  • The Guide
  • 23,384 posts

Posted 19 January 2016 - 07:42 PM

View PostDuvanor, on 13 January 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Well, they stick to the lore whereever they can, but this is a PvP game. As it is, there are just two ways of balancing.

1.: Make Clanmechs better and give a numerical/weight advantage to the IS.
2.: Make IS Mechs as good as Clanmechs.

1 is no option as long as we have mixed factions in public games. And I for one do not want them to change that.


There is a third way, but it requires redoing the game from scratch. That is having more elements to the game from which balance can be tweaked and working with them.

Clan weapons didn't have better range. They had better accuracy over range as a combination between being honed in combat and partly the equipment and computer systems. Thus an IS pilot with a bit of skill and a bit of luck could match a Clan's range; it just wasn't 'as likely'. Here in MWO, Clans have better range and even if you hit at that range with IS weapons you do inferior damage; that's just ********.

Laser vomit is a product of mech threshold + heatsink threshold + heatsink dissipation. Tabletop has mech threshold + heatsink dissipation. Notice 1x, not 2x. So double heatsinks are 2x as opposed to what could have been 4x if not for the decimal "1.4" nonsense and "skill tree." Certainly wouldn't have so much Clan laser vomit if your heatsink count didn't raise the thermal ceiling that your mech can handle.

Heatsink Taxing is a rule in which the heatsinks are given a threshold. Some might argue that MWO's dissipation + threshold per heatsink is emulating this. However the rule doesn't allow the Heatsink Threshold to apply to mech heat. Instead, it is a separate scale which when breached, required a roll to determine the chance of the 'Mech having melted a heatsink or more. (Most I've melted at once was 3 Clan doubles using a Nova's 12 ER ML fire, with only 3 of them doing full power and the rest tuned down to 2 heat and 4 damage each. Did this to maximize chances of hits while trying to keep my heat low.) Rather than random chance, this could be established by something a little more concrete. If you're at this range for too long above the heat of your heatsinks (which can be less or more than your mech threshold of 30), you will melt heatsinks so long as it continues. Of course if you lose heatsinks from destruction or other causes, that ceiling will come down, making it harder and harder to maintain even if you originally could never touch your heatsink limit due to it being above the 30 mech limit.

Speaking of thermal ceilings, in Battletech lore once you have maintained 16 units out of your 30 heat ceiling... that is to say you linger at 53.33% heat for a little while, your weapons are disabled to prevent further heat climb and risk. This is the canonical reasoning and timing for weapon overrides. In Battletech you do not override a shutdown; you override the weapon lockout. Once you hit the 30 threshold for a shutdown...you shut. down. That's it. Finito. Off switch. It won't start back up until you've reached 14/30 heat, which is 46.67% heat. The fall that often happens when shutting down? This is because your mech's joints lock up in place when the mech shuts off. Quite literally the reactor says Redlight! and your mech froze. Not balanced? Welp, eeeyooown-crash! Balanced? You'll stay standing. So no "hunch over" or "erect to your feet" b.s. like we have now.

"Oh but you'll reach 30 heat far too easily! We can't Alpha!"
So... you won't be able to use a move that is "Rare, last ditch effort conducted by Mechwarriors with nothing left to lose?" Wait, so no mass pinpoint FLD from dozens of weapons? No more boating? Huh.

...Hm.

In all seriousness, though, BT's weapon ratings are a summary per unit of time. Technically rated for 10 seconds so lets look at that. Overall damage output and heat production is reduced for most weapons by 2/3rds. So an AC/20 produces 6 heat per 10 seconds instead of 18 heat. "But it sucks to fire one shot per 10 seconds." You're right. However again BT is a summary. They pinpoint-front load the damage to one body part because it is easier on a paper game to do it that way. In the books, Autocannons are churning up to "100" shots per 'rating'. That Victor Pontiac 100? Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat til one hundred shots (described as occurring within about a second), blam 20 damage for one "use." 120mm AC/20? Fires about 12 to 16 rounds to do 20 damage at a rate of 3 to 4 per second. AC/5 at 60mm? 8 to 10 shells per second. The Marauder's AC/5 wields a 120mm AC/5 fires at a "painfully slow 3 to 4 individual shells per second." Each time it delivers '5' potential damage, the 'Round' count goes down by 1. It consumes 1 unit of rated potential, 1 unit of ammunition when factoring it requires x amount of ammunition to deliver 1 rating. In other words it disposes of a "Cassette" or "magazine."

With things like this, it would give us a lot of play-room for balancing the IS and Clan factions without quirking the crap out of things. After all the only thing really out of whack with the Clans is that they can produce significantly higher heat ceilings than IS mechs due to double heatsinks being 2 slots. Fix that and then Clan range superiority to a Clan accuracy superiority... and things will get very different very quickly.

#16 Czarr

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Ogre
  • The Ogre
  • 414 posts

Posted 19 January 2016 - 09:56 PM

View PostNaglinator, on 19 January 2016 - 06:14 PM, said:

Dear Kerensky, that's all i ask for!


thats a problem though given that all of the major units are mercs, the map would like it would now with IS slaughtering clans

#17 Naglinator

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • Mercenary
  • 975 posts
  • LocationStrana Mechty

Posted 19 January 2016 - 09:58 PM

View PostCzarr, on 19 January 2016 - 09:56 PM, said:


thats a problem though given that all of the major units are mercs, the map would like it would now with IS slaughtering clans

Oh I understand it cant be done, but that's not my preference.

#18 Vxheous

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Gold Champ
  • CS 2019 Gold Champ
  • 3,822 posts
  • Location2 Time MWO World Champion

Posted 20 January 2016 - 02:20 AM

I think the problem is you, and not the Clan Mechs
Posted Image
Posted Image

These games just happened in the last 24 hours. Looks like the better team won, both times. Clan/IS had nothing to do with it.

#19 _Comrade_

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,120 posts

Posted 05 February 2016 - 07:21 PM

Before i even clicked on this i knew that it was going to be sarcastic!

Hey since we aren't playing true lore, can all the clans have IlKhan as their top rank, PGI...thanks

#20 Luminis

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Predator
  • The Predator
  • 1,434 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 05 February 2016 - 09:47 PM

View PostNaglinator, on 13 January 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

Giving the CPT a BV or 3 and the stormcrow like a 3.5 makes more sense(arbitrary numbers people, chill). I believe Warthunder uses a BV type system as well as tiers.

Well, War Thunder's Battle Rating system really does bring with it a whole new bunch of problems. There's so much wrong with it... We're opening a whole different can of worms there.

Biggest issue I'm having with a BV type system is that different weight classes in MWO have different roles to fill on the battle field. In the TT, an Atlas has about ~1,900 BV 2.0, a Stormcrow ~2,000, some variants have considerably higher BVs. The Stormcrow might be the all around better 'Mech, but it can't be the spear head of a push.

View PostNaglinator, on 19 January 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

Goodness knows why merc scum keeps posting in the clan forums

Well, "merc scum" is as much affected by proposed changes to balance as the Clan loyalists, so why wouldn't they?

View PostNaglinator, on 19 January 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

Like i said War thunder has a BV system and it works fine for me.

I'll be honest, I never got into WT's Ground Forces. I did play planes a lot over the course of roughly two years and some of the stuff Gaijin pulled off with their BV assignments is... Well, it's at least no better than what we're seeing in MWO.

One of my favourite War Thunder youtubers, Magz, has been talking about that in one of the latest podcasts. Yes, MWO has its issues with quirks being used to balance things and yes, it'd be nice to see a way to both stick to the lore while still balancing things, but I don't want these issues plaguing MWO.

View PostCzarr, on 19 January 2016 - 09:56 PM, said:


thats a problem though given that all of the major units are mercs, the map would like it would now with IS slaughtering clans

This is just me, but I'd be curious to see what happened if faction hopping was not as easy - or at least not as rewarding.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users