563 replies to this topic

[Stone Profit]

PicardDay, on 28 May 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

So if I understand this right the comparison is that Hanse Davion, an educated man in the 3020's has his exceptionally creepy behavior excused on behalf of "asians did it in history"? Talking about the failings of House Davion is most certainly not discussing broad stereotypes of the racial makeup of the Federated Suns or comparing them to the racial ancestry of their competitors - it's strictly a statement on Hanse just being a creeper. I seriously don't get the jump where you somehow justify this behavior by "old asian cultures saw this happen as well (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that is what you are referring to as a "fact". This may surprise you but arranged child marriages were an abominable practice that actually happened all over the world, not just in Asia!)

Still, even though Battletech has all the feudal trappings and arranged child marriages were certainly a part of feudalism, that specific element really has not appeared in any significant manner outside this specific case. Also, accusing entire cultural and ethnic groups of approving child marriages or pedophilia in general is actually extremely easy to construe as insulting. As is expressing that such a statement is a simple "fact."

PicardDay, on 28 May 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

So if I understand this right the comparison is that Hanse Davion, an educated man in the 3020's has his exceptionally creepy behavior excused on behalf of "asians did it in history"? Talking about the failings of House Davion is most certainly not discussing broad stereotypes of the racial makeup of the Federated Suns or comparing them to the racial ancestry of their competitors - it's strictly a statement on Hanse just being a creeper. I seriously don't get the jump where you somehow justify this behavior by "old asian cultures saw this happen as well (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that is what you are referring to as a "fact". This may surprise you but arranged child marriages were an abominable practice that actually happened all over the world, not just in Asia!)

Still, even though Battletech has all the feudal trappings and arranged child marriages were certainly a part of feudalism, that specific element really has not appeared in any significant manner outside this specific case. Also, accusing entire cultural and ethnic groups of approving child marriages or pedophilia in general is actually extremely easy to construe as insulting. As is expressing that such a statement is a simple "fact."

It does, in fact, happen the world over, but my opponent is arguing that my Anglo leader was a pedophile for marrying someone half his age, and I was merely pointing out that it happens in his culture, as well. I in NO WAY stated any group were pedophiles. I also did not accuse any group of condoning child marriages. I said it had happened before in his culture, which is a FACT. I was also alluding to the adage people who live in glass houses shouldnt throw rocks. Perhaps you need to go back to English 101 Way to blow things outta proportion, dude.

Edited by Stone Profit, 01 June 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Stone Profit]

PicardDay, on 30 May 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Actually when Hanse signed up to marry Melissa Steiner she was 13. Totally not creepy

The repeated trips to new avalon were so the couple to be would have a chance to get to know one another. They did not try to concieve until after they were married when she was 18. AND THERE WAS AN ENTIRE PASSAGE ON THE BOOK WHERE HER MOTHER KATRINA MADE SURE SHE WAS OKAY WITH IT AND ASSURED HER THAT SHE DID NOT HAVE TO MARRY HANSE. Read the books again befor you try to demonize my leader. And with that, im out of this Davion hating, liaotroll thread.

Edited by Stone Profit, 01 June 2012 - 09:27 AM.

[Chuggernaut]

>Davionista tells people they need to read books
>also says "people in glass houses should not throw stones"

[Faust de Rache]

Stone Profit, on 01 June 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

And with that, im out of this Davion hating, liaotroll thread.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

If this is the best defense you nitwits can muster, I'm going to rake in a very tidy profit contracting for House Davion's enemies.

[Arthinas]

Faust de Rache, on 01 June 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

If this is the best defense you nitwits can muster, I'm going to rake in a very tidy profit contracting for House Davion's enemies.

With the defenses getting trotted out in this thread, I sure hope for their sakes that their bite's worse than their bark.

[Adridos]

Stone Profit, on 01 June 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

And with that, im out of this Davion hating, liaotroll thread.

Excuse me, gentleman?!

For shame sir, for shame!

[THE 4thbreed]

Arthinas, on 01 June 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

With the defenses getting trotted out in this thread, I sure hope for their sakes that their bite's worse than their bark.

Seeing how that all Liao pilots do is hope that Davion's don't blow them up, go right on ahead.

[Chuggernaut]

THE 4thbreed, on 01 June 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

Seeing how that all Liao pilots do is hope that Davion's don't blow them up, go right on ahead.

Either they're really good at wishing things into reality or they've got some other way of fighting, cause they hand the Davions their ***** for like seventy years straight.

[Steel Rain]

If I had to choose one of these groups to live under it would be Davion.

[Qin]

Quote

Read the source material sometime. In the Warrior trilogy (and the sourcebooks) it is explicitly stated that Hanse was bringing Melissa to New Avalon so that they could try to conceive an heir. They also specifically state that Hanse needed an heir to unite both realms, which is why he kept arranging these meetings. Again, you either don't know what you're talking about or being deliberately obtuse here.

Well i gone through a bunch of the books, and dont see anything like that, so maybe care to name some books and page numbers?
Just somebody mentioning he needs an heir is not enough.

Quote

How does Comstar's reprehensible actions excuse Hanse's chemical spill ploy? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Well since there is nobody else to go to and complain about the bad service of Comstar, you do have to take matters into your own hand. States do things that are when you look at it reprehensible. But such things must be done for the good of the majority. Looking at any State, Nation, Empire you will find such actions. Makes him no better or worst then other leaders.

Quote

Again, in the source material there are repeated discussions between Hanse and members of his inner circle about Morgan's usefulness as a hostage, whether or not he's trustworthy to serve in a military command capacity and what he'd do if he discovered Hanse's schemes. Fun fact: Ardan Sortek believed Morgan was loyal to House Davion - Hanse believed he was a serious threat and planted Kym Sorenson as a false lover to watch his every move.

Well when you read the whole picture it is clear that Hanse is at first worried that Morgan might plan to have him murdered as he was first in line of succession. Murder has been a tool to advance your own position in the Inner Sphere for some time, so yes clearly you do have be careful. Then again, 2nd book of the warrior trilogy, somewhere in the middle, i will spare you the whole text but in the end Hanse tells Morgan and i quote "No matter what, never doubt that you have my complete trust." Hanse also mentions that he regretted, that he brought Morgan to New Avalon bla bla bla, interesting read. It simply is not a black and white story.
[CODE]

Quote

Also, do those "millions of lives" saved balance out the billions he destroyed by giving Melissa her wedding gift?

NAIS atlas says 100 million dead, 600 million injured, across 2 fronts. Civilians become casualties in wars, thats nothing new. You dont even need to be shot by an enemy soldier to die or be wounded.
200 star systems changed hands, so 500.000 dead and 3.000.000 injured per star system on average.
With my millions i was conservative. Michel Hasek was planning to assault the Cruicis March together with House Liao, it would have gone into the same numbers of death and injured.
The reason for he war was to make a bridge between Davion and Steiner, where both nations could travel back and forth with some safety. The wedding "gift" was a nice act to shock people and in particular Liao. Hanse had a score to settle with the guy.
In the end it was a classical war to grab land. In that respect he's no better then all the other leaders past, present and future in the inner sphere.

Quote

Did you miss the part in the sourcebook quote where it specifically mentioned that Federated Suns citizens were fed up with how awful their homeland was? He wanted people to live without the burden of ANY house lord's yoke. And how exactly does someone making a princpled decision to go into deep space and live a hardscrabble life - removed from the comforts of great house territory, under constant threat of pirate attack or starvation or sudden brutal retribution from house Davion or the SLDF - because they value peace over perpetual war line up with cowardice in your mind?

I did not say he was a coward, i applaud his decision to go and find a better life. To bad though that he could not defend his new nation from predations of slavers, pirates, and other scum. Still Davion did not come into the picture till the Star Leage decided to conquer those periphery states.
Now that the Star League decided to bring all those periphery states back into the fold, i personal think was one of the worst decisions made, and criminal in its execution. Its a black mark on all the Houses as they all participated in it.

I can understand that the population gets tired of war, but peace is not always an option. Believe me i would rather enjoy peace then war. But i am not prepared to pay any price for peace. The period is called The Age of War, that alone tells you a lot. Im sure that in the other Houses the people where not that happy about the constant war either.

Quote

You clearly have a limited knowledge of the Battletech universe, among other things. FYI, quotes like THIS:

Are why people are coming down so hard on the "good guys". Your faction is synonymous with propagandism and bloodlust.

Im sorry but you dont have to make it personal. You have come to the House Davion part of the forum, and to a thread specifically named: Why Have you chosen House Davion?, to tarnish our leader, and our history. If you think we will just keel over and surrender, in light of your conclusions, your in for a rude awakening. I reserve the right to defend House Davions history. I am sure there are others who know far more about Battletech. Neither am i above revising an opinion when presented with facts. Still i will look at the information given and form my own opinion.

And if you dont like that then you better come with something that convinces me that my conclusions are wrong.

Ow btw i did not ask that question your quoting, and neither did i make the remark about propaganda and bloodlust. I simply think people are piling on Davion because they belong to another group. Although some might be spoiling for a fight.

[Atomfire]

I back FedSun due to (a they have the closest thing to free speech anywhere in the Inner Sphere (b the enforcer (c Hanse "The Fox" Davion and his successor Victor and (d all of the men in house Davion at least have to go through a stint in the military, thus do they know the cost of war first hand.

Edited by Atomfire, 01 June 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[pied]

Fax Machines! Eat your heart out Com Star!

[Two Beans]

I heard that Davions eat babies. Its just what I heard.

[Numlock1776]

Compulsory education is great, thanks to it I was able to read this thread and make an educated choice on my house affiliation.

[HATER 1]

I have the most simple answer, it seems. I'm from Saginaw, which is in the Federated Suns..........

[Harabec Weathers]

Steel Rain, on 01 June 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

If I had to choose one of these groups to live under it would be Davion.

Even if you had to be just a average joe on an average FedSuns planet living an average life? Not some exalted Mechwarrior, privileged militarist or Noble, or even just someone lucky enough to live on a planet like New Avalon?

Are you aware of what the quality of life and education level of the average FedSuns citizen is?

Edited by Harabec Weathers, 01 June 2012 - 08:50 PM.

[Vanguard319]

From the info I've gathered:

under IS:

Terran Hedgemony - USA in SPACE!

Star League - United Nations in SPACE!

Fed Suns - constitutional monarchy, essentially a blend of the UK/France, a military superpower like the US, and generally has benevolent leaders. G. Britain in SPACE!

Lyran Commonwealth - feudal monarchy, economic superpower, fond of ginormous guns, (German influence perhaps?) weaker militarily due to "Social Generals", Archons generally liberal leaders, Prussia in space?

FWL - Representative Parliment, divided and on the verge of fracturing due to various factions, military has strong emphasis on combined-arms tactics, Captain-General seems to be military ruler w limited powers.

Draconis Combine - Military Dictatorship, run on a feudal system, districts are ruled by warlords who answer to the Coordinator, founded on the principles of Bushido, strong military, pretty much Feudal Japan in SPACE!

Capellan Confederation - Dictatorship w Chinese feudal system, citzenship is earned based on one's commitment to the confederation, rulers tend to be batshit insane, imperial China (with a sutble pinch of North Korea) in SPACE!

FRR - Unique democracy of sorts, noblility and Prince are elected by the people, major goals include survival as a nation, Sweden in SPACE!

the Clans in general - Socialist government based on caste system with warriors at head, divided between warden (protector) and crusader (conquerer) factions,

[Serevn]

I noticed a common trend... Federated Suns saying their good guys... and a lot of people saying their not. Personally I'm going to save whatever i have to say for in game while i'm walking over a smoking pile of slag that might have been a lance of Fed mechs. In game banter is always much more fun.

This is what i will be walking over piles of slag with.

[Battlecruiser]

davion make good clients

I think my favorite clients are the steiners though

[chutche2]

Harabec Weathers, on 01 June 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

Even if you had to be just a average joe on an average FedSuns planet living an average life? Not some exalted Mechwarrior, privileged militarist or Noble, or even just someone lucky enough to live on a planet like New Avalon?

Are you aware of what the quality of life and education level of the average FedSuns citizen is?

Yeah, I think I would rather live in the OA or some other periphery realm than be an illiterate backward Fedsuns dirt farmer.