17 replies to this topic

[Donnybrook]

Popped into the testing ground to tool around with the WHM-BW for a little bit, but wanted to get others' opinions too of this new heavy mech.

First off, it looks great. Absolutely iconic - recall this is the mech on the cover of the table top years and years ago. While the profile is striking, the scaling seems alright as well: even with the SRM box, it doesn't feel any taller than a Thunderbolt or an Orion, and is definitely thinner than the Thunderbolt.

Second, it feels agile for a heavy mech. I'll have to check the quirks again, but it felt more responsive than I expected even accounting for the default XL 280 engine in the WHM-BW. I'll want to see a hitbox analysis to see if XLs are really all that viable.

Third, the weapon mix is interesting as it feels all over the place. I suspect adept weapon group management is going to be a requirement for this mech with is many varied hard points. The WHM-BW is running with two ER PPCs, two MPLs, one SRM6, and four MGs. It has enough heatsinks you can fire the ER PPCs repeatedly, although I don't recommend more than two alpha strikes - the heat adds up too quickly. On the other hand, the amount of damage possible <500m and closing to brawling range scales up quickly. The close range weaponry is going to be brutal on softened up targets.

Unfortunately, there are some downsides too:

• Even squat, the SRM is still an exposed boxy pod on the shoulder that I'm sure counts as RT.
  
• The energy mounts on the arms are so low that you risk hitting terrain at waist height. There may be some pain points trying to get unobstructed fire on targets.
  
• The WHM is going to have face-tank to bring all of its weapons to bear, and while shielding and armor rolling are feasible given its agility, doing so risks losing those valuable arm weapons.

Nevertheless, I'm eager to play with this bad betty and see how she fares in actual combat. I'm also looking forward to all of the build varieties possible with four variants to choose from.

[_demir]

I don't much care for the ppc quirks or the horrid arm mounts. I do like the fact it goes 80+ with an xl 325 and speed tweak. I can mount 3 LPL's and 11 double heat sinks (no endo or ferro) and get amazing heat efficiency (66%) compared to the quickdraw meta build at 50%.

I took the one with duration quirks out with duration mods and I could spam those three LPL's way longer than my meta builds almost non stop on cold maps.

It doesn't get JJ's or as much speed, but the heat efficiency difference is substantial, just not sure if there is another mech that does it better at 70 tons.

At 75 tons, The black knight knt-7-l can do it 5 kph faster with slightly more armor and 20% more range, but it's less agile in terms of torso yaw and turn rate + the warhammer has acceleration quirks.

So, in a face tank situation, I'd go warhammer, but considering the meta, there are mechs that do everything better. I'm going to put this one in tier 3.

Edited by demir, 20 January 2016 - 12:05 AM.

[Bud Crue]

This mech is the poster child for anyone looking to argue that TT rules or play simply cannot translate to this game.

In the MWO universe there is no way this mech is a "top mech on the battlefield" with its standard (or merely intended) primary weapons of PPCs in the arms. In other threads where the lore-ists (of which I am one) argue that this mech should always run PPCs and always in the arms because that is how it is supposed to be!...are simply wrong. In this game having an already less than optimum weapon in the lowest hard points is, alas not a good way to build a mech regardless of how badass it was in the TT game or books. It doesn't work here. I will keep at least 1 version with PPCs in the arms for the sake of role play and lore or whatever you want to call it (stubbornness), but the others -if they have PPCs at all- will be moved to the higher torso mounts...they just work better there, alas.

If folks have suggestions for predominate PPC builds, please share (the one with the the 3 missile mounts: std 300, ams, 2ppc, 2ml and 3 srm4s with 2 tons ammo filled all the crit spaces and is okay on heat as long as you don't touch the ppcs once you close).

[Luscious Dan]

Definitely finding that the pug meta shifted to longer range, at least for the first night. Saw lots more gauss/ER PPC mechs, both clan and IS. The Warhammers using regular PPCs seemed outclassed, especially on maps that favor the longer sight lines. ER PPCs were necessary to keep up with the clanners and more offensively quirked mechs.

That being said, the Warhammer handles well, can evade shots and take them reasonably well, and the nipple PPC mounts are sufficiently high. I've swapped MPLs into the arms to unlock them for close rage fighting. Seems a decent fit. Using the 3E torso for 3xLL is something I want to try. Saw fella do well in a 5xLL Warhammer and I want to give it a try.

[loopala]

after trying a game or 2 stock. just have to do it it. i was surprised by how well the 6D worked in stocked form. might be a new bruiser in the stock mech matches

the mech handles very well for it size. may or may not be XL friendly, not enough matches yet to tell but so far the XL engines are not getting killed noticeably quicker the the STD. good torso twist and arm movement almost able to hit behind you.
other then the low arm mounts the War Hammer is not a bad mech just not tier 1 maybe a very good tier 2

[Scyther]

This is just a short-term observation til I get more matches in them, however I find the CT catches every bit of enemy fire it can. Especially LRM fire, which seems to just funnel in to it.

I've finished quite a few matches with armor left on every component but the CT gone. Once I get the tweaks and twists all elited I'll see how that helps in spreading the damage.

[jonfett]

I've had some different matches with 3 different variants of the Whammy. All of them, I had 99% full armor, w/ it basically all front-loaded. Two of them I used the STD280, but I also loaded an XL340 engine into my BW from the Cicada event. The faster engine allows faster twisting to spread damage, but so far the CT is a soft squishy magnet for incoming fire no matter the engine. I keep getting my CT cored, while the rest of the mech is untouched or in the yellow.

[Solis Obscuri]

The arm mounts do have a surprisingly bad case of knuckledragger syndrome, given that they look pretty high in the art and mechlab.

Overall, though, there's little else I can criticize about the design. Missile rack can be vulnerable, but I suspect most people won't use it anyway if they're build a hill-humper. The torso weapons are all in nice high mounts, which facilitates that sort of build. Agility is decent, though some variants have a much better time of it than others, the -6R (which I've used the most so far) has very little turn rate bonus and a surprising number of ballistic quirks, which suggests PGI is nudging it toward that AC/5 + PPC hill-humper role.

The torso twist angles are very nice, which helps the Warhammer in close fighting, and it does well in brawls and mid-range skirmishes. Armor and structure are robust (once upgraded), and it spreads damage well. The only possible weak point may be the crotch hitbox, which seems to transfer mostly to the CT.

The pitch up/down angle isn't great either, and combined with the low arms the Warhammer doesn't particularly excel at fighting in close on steep terrain.

Overall, I'd say it's a very good 'mech, though not one that excels in any one particular area. Not a top pick if you want to specialize as a brawler, a sniper, a missile boat, a dakka mech, etc. But with plenty of flexibility and lots of hardpoints to choose from, it can certainly perform any of those jobs adequately, or perform well with more "generalist" builds.

Time will tell, of course, but I'd say the Warhammer is off to a good start.

[Luscious Dan]

Could just be that my favorite mechs are the Thunderbolt and Hunchback IIC (20 degrees up/down), but I haven't found the torso pitch to be poor on the Warhammer at all. The Warhammer's 25 degrees seems adequate to me.

And its yaw is quite good as well, 110 degrees of rotation plus another 25 for the arm actuators. Some of the TDRs have 80 and 20.

I haven't found my CT getting cored particularly easily, I'm still losing a side torso or both before dying a lot of the time. Maybe it just comes from driving that Tbolt, but I can often sacrifice a side torso to escape a bad situation alive.

[Thunder Lips Express]

Garrick Kael, on 19 January 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

Popped into the testing ground to tool around with the WHM-BW for a little bit, but wanted to get others' opinions too of this new heavy mech.

First off, it looks great. Absolutely iconic - recall this is the mech on the cover of the table top years and years ago. While the profile is striking, the scaling seems alright as well: even with the SRM box, it doesn't feel any taller than a Thunderbolt or an Orion, and is definitely thinner than the Thunderbolt.

Second, it feels agile for a heavy mech. I'll have to check the quirks again, but it felt more responsive than I expected even accounting for the default XL 280 engine in the WHM-BW. I'll want to see a hitbox analysis to see if XLs are really all that viable.

Third, the weapon mix is interesting as it feels all over the place. I suspect adept weapon group management is going to be a requirement for this mech with is many varied hard points. The WHM-BW is running with two ER PPCs, two MPLs, one SRM6, and four MGs. It has enough heatsinks you can fire the ER PPCs repeatedly, although I don't recommend more than two alpha strikes - the heat adds up too quickly. On the other hand, the amount of damage possible &lt;500m and closing to brawling range scales up quickly. The close range weaponry is going to be brutal on softened up targets.

Unfortunately, there are some downsides too:

• Even squat, the SRM is still an exposed boxy pod on the shoulder that I'm sure counts as RT.
  
• The energy mounts on the arms are so low that you risk hitting terrain at waist height. There may be some pain points trying to get unobstructed fire on targets.
  
• The WHM is going to have face-tank to bring all of its weapons to bear, and while shielding and armor rolling are feasible given its agility, doing so risks losing those valuable arm weapons.

Nevertheless, I'm eager to play with this bad betty and see how she fares in actual combat. I'm also looking forward to all of the build varieties possible with four variants to choose from.

I really like the warhammer 7S a lot. So far with the small sample size of 100 games or so my kdr is higher then most mechs that I own. As for the Black Widow I think I'll eventually like it. It kinda reminds me of my cataphract 4X with the hardpoints. I built it similar but instead of 4 ac5's that the 4x is known for I placed 4.ac2s and 4 medium lasers and a large XL. I'm having a bit of trouble with the mech, barely have a 1.0 kdr but I think this build will be strong once I elite the mech.
Good points OP on its size and looks. She's a beauty

[ginger]

MadBadger, on 20 January 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

This is just a short-term observation til I get more matches in them, however I find the CT catches every bit of enemy fire it can. Especially LRM fire, which seems to just funnel in to it.

I've finished quite a few matches with armor left on every component but the CT gone. Once I get the tweaks and twists all elited I'll see how that helps in spreading the damage.

I've been running a standard engine ML/SRM4 brawler 7S and haven't had a lick of problems with the CT or any other hitboxes for that matter. Any match that I died in I managed to twist enough to lose at least 1 torso before going down, and most of that was without basics even done.

FYI SRM lovers the high mounts on the 7S make it great for skimming missiles right over the hilltops/buildings/etc while exposing very little of your own mech. Was having a great time last night picking on low slung heavies and assaults by circling good terrain and peppering them with missiles without them able to respond.

[jonfett]

I'm doing better in keeping my Whammy from dieing right away from CT induced nightmares. Lot's of torso twisting and keeping out of the opposition's attention are key. Sad, but the Whammy is not a meatshield. I've also had to dump PPC's from any of my serious builds. LPL's and ERL's are my primary armament, w/ lots of DHS's. Don't sit; keep moving. Anytime I stand still and give facetime, my CT goes buybuy.

[Zolaz]

The Warhammer is no Hellbringer, that is for sure.

[Rhavin]

Zolaz, on 23 January 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

The Warhammer is no Hellbringer, that is for sure.

No , it's the mech the hellbringer is based off of. An ECM capable Warhammer would be about the same though in my opinion.

I haven't had any issues really with XL death, I either get cored or legged it seems. But if your boating lasers you don't actually need an xl though in most builds.

Beautiful machine, I have face tanked several madcats and won by getting my twist on. To me that's a good mark in it's favor. Can't toe to toe with an assault. But can peek and trade with one easily.

Love the chassis, my favorite build is 300 standard, 3 med lasers, 3 er large. Putting the build on every varient but the BW works well. I run 2 LL and 2 ER large on it with good results.

[Jack winston]

http://img4web.com/view/2PJ1PU

My best Warhammer match (and best match ever so far). 3 Large Laser, 4 Med Laser and STD 300
Very peaky through the acceleration quirks and you dont get focused so much compared to running a Timber Wolf or Thunderbolt

[grendeldog]

I would have liked to see a bit more variation between chassis variants add far as quirks are concerned. Like give the all energy 6D a greater energy heat gen quirk, 7S a greater energy range quirk, 6R greater ballistic cooldown quirk (not the Widow since it already has four B mounts), and then maybe a ballistic projectile speed quirk on the BW. As it stands it is true that there is some variation, but they all have 30 to 50% PPC velocity that is irrelevant since nobody will really use PPCs much on this mech, 10% heat gen reduction for energy, and essentially identical structure quirks (plus or minus two points).

They all just seem so identical, just like the Wolfhound, just like the Crab and Black Knight. I feel PGI isn't creating enough variation between the variants. I'm not asking for OVER-quirked mechs, just more distantly quirked mechs.

[Luscious Dan]

I do agree they could afford a little extra quirkage on offense, but overall I don't think they need much.

They all seem solid to me, and each variant has unique loadouts the others can't match. Whether it's missiles, dual ballistic in a side torso, or just plain old energy spam. The lack of any range quirks on most builds leaves them lagging behind some of the super-quirked IS builds, not to mention clan mechs, but overall they do decent damage IMO.

They all have different combinations of torso twist, accel/decel, and turning rate quirks too, which gives them all a different feel on the battlefield. I kinda like that.

[Donnybrook]

I've spent many more hours on my WHMs, and I believe that the arm weapon firing height would benefit from some tweaking. I have no concept of the difficulty involved in changing the model (if it articulates at all), as it stands my arm weapons hit far too much terrain.

Instead of the arms close in like this:



I'd prefer a wider stance that raised the firing position farther above the 'hips':



Although, the downside is that it might increase the horizontal volume too much.