16 replies to this topic

[Donnybrook]

I've been weighing the value of an AC5 vs. a LPL, and I'm sincerely torn. I'm wondering whether AC5s are worth it.

Forgive me if this has been discussed to death, I've been playing for about a month and a half, so there's still much of the game that's new to me. That said, I'm not sure about value of one vs. the other, given a choice in hard points (quirks aside).

I started with the basic figures.

- AC5 is 4 slots, 8 tons, 3.01 dmg, 1.66s CD, 1 heat
- LPL is 2 slots, 7 tons, 2.81 dmg, 3.25s CD, .67s duration, 7 heat

The AC5 has a lot to recommend it:
- Range
- Rate of Fire
- Heat

The AC5 has disadvantages too:
- Tonnage & Slots
- Ammo
- Projectile velocity & Misses
- Projectile drop

Conversely, the LPL enjoys:
- Alpha damage
- Pinpoint accuracy

While the LPL suffers from:
- Less range
- Longer cooldown
- More heat

Note: If I apply Cooldown Modules, the DPS difference becomes even more pronounced (AC5 3.44 DPS, LPL 3.13 DPS).

On initial observations, it seems as though for less agile, tanky mechs (some heavies, many assaults) who are capable of holding weapons on a target for a longer period of time, that the AC5 would be preferable. On the other hand, faster skirmishing mechs are going to be prefer the LPL. Also, when poking at range, where the enemy is only visible for a fraction of a second, the LPL seems favorable. The AC5 seems to be a hell of a brawler though.

Nevertheless, I'm beginning to wonder if the AC5, while good, may take too many slots and too much tonnage. On its own, the tonnage and size vs. LPL makes sense for DPS (and the potential missed shots), but when you start throwing ammo in there, even a single AC5 is a hefty commitment in slots and tons. That 4/8 AC5 becomes a 7/11 AC5 with only 90 rounds, for example.

Taking myself as an example of a learning player, I so far have only 70% accuracy with AC5s. That means of those 90 rounds, only 63 hit. That's 315 damage over ~150 seconds (90 * 1.66s).

Similarly, using that same 150 seconds as my benchmark, and figuring the LPL takes ~4 seconds per shot (3.25s + .67s), it has 37 potential hits. So far I have over 80% accuracy with LPLs, so 30 shots would hit, or 330 damage. That is not a huge difference.

However, the LPL is not limited to that 150 seconds. It can keep doing damage as it isn't out of ammo. Additionally, the LPL is 2 slots/7 tons. Compared to equip cost of an AC5, I can equip two DHS with the LPL for comparable slots and fewer tons (8/9 vs 7/11).

And yet, I still see plenty of AC5s in use and many players wrecking with them. Not sure which is better, to tell the truth.

[Digital_Angel]

I don't know that there is a definitive winner between the two weapon systems. As you already pointed out, they both have advantages in different areas.

The heat factor largely depends on what maps you get. On hotter maps the AC5 has a huge advantage, but the extra heat means less on cold maps.

Also, what mech are you looking to put this on, and what quirks does it have? That can make a huge difference in your choice.

For a sniper play style the AC doesn't give away your position nearly as much as the LPL does.

For DPS, using a UAC5 instead of the AC5 will put DPS higher (at the expense of some range, a slot and 1 ton each). Remember that the AC5 also causes cockpit shake for your opponent throwing off their aim (especially if you have several ACs in a staggered firing pattern). The LPL doesn't have that added benefit.

[Bud Crue]

OP That's a heck of a break down. Well presented.
For me however it is a much more simple question: what feels right. AC/5 is one of my least used weapons because it feels too slow unless the mech has a significant cool down quirk for it. I actually prefer AC2s or AC10s for the most part.

Illia Cataphract, the 3AC5 Jagger. Those work with AC5s for me. But I think that is because there are three, not because I consider the AC5 to be better than the LPL or any other weapon.

Generally speaking however, if I am going to run an 2 or fewer AC5s, I'll find the extra tonnage somehow to run Ultras. Quirks be damned.

[Donnybrook]

There have been a variety of times I've run into the dilemma, but most recently on Warhammers have I found myself choosing between AC5s or LPLs.

Granted, being able to run both at the same time on my Banshee is pretty glorious, but rarely do I get to enjoy that kind of confluence of weapon opportunity.

Edited by Garrick Kael, 01 February 2016 - 01:33 PM.

[InspectorG]

LPL > AC5 MOST days of the week.

3AC5 > 1LPL.

Far as efficiency goes the LPL is pretty good. IS and Clan.

1AC5 alone is not worth it.

2UAC5 with quirks may be.

3AC5 is where it stats to get good on a generic level.


More importantly.

What mech are you building for?

[Donnybrook]

InspectorG, on 01 February 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

LPL > AC5 MOST days of the week.

3AC5 > 1LPL.

Far as efficiency goes the LPL is pretty good. IS and Clan.

1AC5 alone is not worth it.

2UAC5 with quirks may be.

3AC5 is where it stats to get good on a generic level.


More importantly.

What mech are you building for?

I've run into the AC5/LPL quandary on several mechs (most recently WHMs), but my original post was meant more mech-agnostic in nature (given the only thing constant about quirks seems to be their mutability). For the meta, it seems as though LPLs and AC5s are kind of the go-to weapons.

e.g. Have energy hardpoints? How many LPLs can you fit? Have ballistic hardpoints? How many AC5s can you fit?

Therefore, I like the simplicity of your answer! Thank you.

[MavRCK]

Your analysis is spot-on and underlies the discontent within the competitive community and PGI's erratic and slow approach to balance. Gross imbalances continue to exist since closed beta. Balance changes swing from one extreme to another. It's illogical and unpredictable except that one now expects PGI to balance things illogically and unpredictably - nerf'ing something good to useless and vice-versa.

Think of it this way:

Autocannon low heat, high tonnage, high damage, ammo explosions
Lasers high heat, low to medium tonnage, medium to high damage, no ammo

It's a puzzle to fit the best damage for heat and tonnage (and crit slots).

This is what makes Mechwarrior / Battletech fun - designing your perfect mech.

Good luck!

Edited by MavRCK, 01 February 2016 - 05:23 PM.

[Jman5]

There is no right or wrong answer here because it depends on the mech and what you want to do with the rest of your build. If you're piling on a bunch of medium lasers, then maybe an autocannon would be a better choice. If you're equipping a bunch of SRMs, you probably want some lasers.That said, if you're leaning toward the ac/5 I would probably just bump it up to the UAC/5 unless it has a specific ac/5 quirk.

[Tarl Cabot]

The one thing missing is the velocity. AC5s are slow compared to their pre-nerf speeds where as lasers are instant hit and/or readjust to apply the remaining damage.

[Donnybrook]

Not just velocity, but bullet drop.

In a quick and dirty test using FRAPs and Movie Maker to step through the frames, it looks as though travel time for an AC5 at 500m is approximately 0.6 seconds. Napkin math follows (please forgive any miscalculations).

I'd love to test 250m and 1000m to approximate velocity decay and bullet drop, but if I assume regression is linear, then that means that AC5 velocity is around 833m/s. Or, 0.12 seconds per 100m.

This means that if I want to hit a target that's 800m out, I need to give myself about 1 second for my round to hit. Additionally, if that same target has a relative transversal velocity of 74m/s (i.e. assuming I'm stationary and they're moving perpendicular to me), then I need to lead them by about 74m to hit at that same range. It obviously gets more complicated if their vector is not perpendicular, or if I'm in motion and angular velocity becomes a factor.

Or conversely with a LPL? Paint the target and track.

EDIT: Interesting tidbit from real life. The M1A1 Abrams tank uses a variation of the Rheinmetall L/44 120mm gun. Muzzle velocity is 1580-1750m/s. Comparatively, Battletech AC ammo ranges from 30mm to 203mm in caliber (AC2 -> AC20). Even at the low end, that's nearly double the velocity of current AC5 speed.

To make AC5s more attractive, I wonder that it wouldn't be better to increase their velocity but offset damage potential by increasing their cooldown.

Edited by Garrick Kael, 03 February 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[Exard3k]

Why not take both? Thats my plan for the rifleman

[Crow Splat]

I know it's some of my old tabletop days biasing my stance but for me, it's apples and oranges. AC 5 is long range damage application and LPL is for mid to close range.

Also, I view AC 2 and 5 as volume fire weapons. Stack as many as you can and fire as fast as possible.

[p4r4g0n]

I think what is missing from your analysis is that LPL is a damage over time weapon i.e. to get the full damage done, the laser has to be on target for the entire duration of the shot.

Accuracy, however, is measured by your hitting the target only and does not correlate with the amount of damage done i.e. a slash across the target doing 1 point of damage and a laser burn for the entire duration on target doing max damage are both regarded as 100% accuracy.

AC5 on the other hand is 100% damage if hit, 0 if not, so relying on the accuracy figures in your stats will likely be extremely misleading.

IMO there is no fixed answer because I use different mechs differently based on the strengths / weaknesses of the mech e.g. mechs where torso twisting is limited forces you to pretty much face tank an enemy in a brawl so LPL's damage over time feature is less of an issue.

Just my 2 cents

[Kshat]

The issue at hands is that most mechs aren't boating the AC5. Therefore a lot of builds combine them with lasers, adding in difficulty regarding targeting a sideways moving object and making it a necessity to hold your aim at the target instead of delivering pinpoint damage with the ACs and hide/twist.
So, ACs got some inherent issues, like ballistic flight, ammo dependency and being more influenced by latency issues on your or your target's side.
On top, ACs (+ammo) take a lot of space and weigh a lot.

After the last major quirk overhaul I reviewed lots of my mechs and came to one conclusion:
most mechs with a "hybrid" loadout (on IS side) got quirks for energy weapons. Might it be a thunderbolt, a battlemaster or even a Jagermech (Firebrand for example).
And for most of them one thing holds true: if I switch the AC5 (and ammo) for a LPL and additional heatsinks, I get a higher alpha, have less issues to get my damage on target and the build runs more or less on the same heatlevel. Additional plus: no ammo dependancy, no ammunition explosions, which might come in handy.
Two things I trade in for this:
- some ranged power, but usually it's not worth to expose yourself in order to get some weak hits off because a large portion of your weapons can't contribute towards the damage dealt
- the ability to get some more or less heatneutral DPS going with the ACs alone. Usually, if you depend on this stuff, things went downhill moments before and you should aim to avoid such clutch situations

For me, ACs and especially the low caliber ones, don't deliver on the promise of trading weight and ammo dependancy to gain a low heat weapon. Maybe they should reduce the heat and cooldown of ACs a bit in order to make them worthwile.
Overquirked IS-boats show which damagepotential an AC-build can have, but all of these gunboats have a low alpha, therefore force you to expose yourself for counterfire.

[S_T_R_A_N_G_E]

in typical builds, one ac5 isn't enough to matter... i would think UAC5 instead which can get 3-4 shots off quickly making it essence an ac15-20. The LPL is a very good weapon so if you have the space for some heat sinks i would go with that over 1 AC5.

[Audacious Aubergine]

Another advantage of any autocannon vs an equivalent laser is screen shake, especially on the /2 or /5 class with reasonably high rate of fire. A laser might cause more actual damage if you're hitting more, but if you've ever been spammed at by a King Crab and find yourself with a headache from all the screen shake then you've got a taste of what you could be doing to some other poor sod

[thievingmagpi]

I go between a 3AC5 banshee and a 4LL. Both with 4 ML

I love my 3Ac5- elite mech and cooldown fully maxed they fire really damn fast. However, I can't shake the feeling that for an entire torso slot (plus ammo) 15 damage isn't enough. Hitting something with AC5s is certainly more visceral and satisfying than slicing them with lasers, but I feel like I'm not doing as much damage as my laser variants and I wish I was. I love dakka. The other issue is of course, no twisting. This requires pretty constant fire. Good for leading flank moves and enfilading fire, but it means I can't do a lot of torso shielding.

Bought another variant and kitted it out with 4LL. Originally came standard with the 3LPL but I had some issues with heat management.

4LL is pretty good. Certainly a much beefier alpha than by dakka variant (56 vs 35) and I can, if I choose to get 3alphas off and be just under overheat. But that assumes I'm hitting the whole time, which I usually don't. So for all that heat I'm very likely doing quite a bit less alpha.

I've experimented with chainfiring 4LLs which is useful for mid to late game once everything is hurting a bit, or I'll use it in a skirmish when there is a lot of focused fire (hint:rebind chain fire key to E. i switch constantly) but on its own ~9 damage doesn't feel like enough.

I then experimented with grouping my 4LLs in sets of 2. Quite useful for corner shots. Also means that I'm now doing ~18 per shot (more than my 3ac5) and I can easily switch between right/left sides all day long without over heating and still fire nearly constantly. I'm doing much more damage and getting more kills. This might be because I'm staying alive longer due to better engine and more armour. My LLs aren't upgraded at all yet.


I would, however like to get into the world of LPL. I see the advantages of the faster firing time and doing 11 vs 9 damage is a serious positive in my eyes but I've had a hard time finding a way to fit those in without sacrificing too much armour or DHS but I've been very carefully considering doing a 400xl build to try and increase speed and fit some lpls on.

So in short, I think they're actually fairly well balanced

Edited by thievingmagpi, 19 February 2016 - 11:28 AM.