74 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Malachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

Atlas pilots like to twist so sometimes you get an arm. It doesn't help much though from my experience. And lrm 20s are handy if you know how to use them. I've tried all the builds. I'm not impressed with ballistic only builds, or laser only builds. Or missile only builds. A mix of all of the above allows one to be effective on any battlefield. And I don't whine if my dire gets stuck on polar highlands. It can run there as well as anywhere else. I love watching atlases try to close with me taking lrm fire all the way in then uac fire. Most of the time they don't even make it to effective ac20 range.

LRM 20s are the least handy of all the LRM types even if you know how to use them and do use them to their full potential, they are objectively worse than the other types and there has been testing done to see just how much worse they are.

Also after explaining to me that Atlases are trying to close with you from outside of effective AC20 range and are getting chewed up by LRMs and UACs I can see that you definitely aren't going up against good pilots.

[Malachy Karrde]

Dakota1000, on 04 February 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

I don't have as much experience using Dire Wolves as Wintersdark, but I've piloted them for over 100 matches and specialize in assault mechs in general.

That said 2 LRM20s is a terrible LRM boat, the spread is atrocious and the cooldown is terrible, you'd be better off using 2 LRM10s.

Also, as an Atlas pilot, it can take quite a beating from a Dire Wolf and win easily. If I am in an Atlas and have not killed a Dire Wolf after 3 Alphas I'm doing horribly that day. An Atlas S normally runs with an AC20, 4 ASRM6, and sometimes 2 MLs. for an alpha over 80 damage. You fire, then twist. An Atlas's arm can take 112 points of damage, and it has two of them. If the Atlas pilot is good he will have spread most of the damage a Dire Wolf can do to the arms and side torsos and will have ample time to take you down even in a direct confrontation.

If you started over 600m away from that Atlas and the Atlas pilot was bad enough to not use cover and just walk at you then you would easily kill him, but that's about it.

I've seen some pretty terrible Atlas builds and some horribly Atlas pilots though, its no surprise you ripped them apart.

Well, I specialize in assaults as well and have you both beat by quite a bit in the dires... last I looked had well over 200 matches. People need to be careful when they say someone shouldn't do something
Any weapon in game can be used to devastating effect. Yes lrm 20s are slow and have a large spread. And they aren't my primary weapon either. I have used dual lrm 10s, srms, streak srms, and kept going back to the 20s. For how I use them they just work better. Any build is subjective to the user. Just because I can kick an atlas to the curb regularly doesn't mean everyone can. Same with those who claim vice versa. Last atlas I killed I did 394 damage in 20 to 30 seconds. He hit me once at extreme range with his ac. He made it to 370 meters before he died. I've popped em at close range too. I'm tier 3 so I've taken on pretty much all levels. Ultimately I guess my position is that the Kodiak doesn't bother me much. It may be able to close faster but in the end it will have weaknesses too and the old dire will be able to take it too. Do I blow up? Alot. But I usually have 3 or 4 others that I take with me. Knowing how to use your load out and fight your mech will always win over someone who is driving the flavor of the month.

[Texas Merc]

Malachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

Atlas pilots like to twist so sometimes you get an arm. It doesn't help much though from my experience. And lrm 20s are handy if you know how to use them. I've tried all the builds. I'm not impressed with ballistic only builds, or laser only builds. Or missile only builds. A mix of all of the above allows one to be effective on any battlefield. And I don't whine if my dire gets stuck on polar highlands. It can run there as well as anywhere else. I love watching atlases try to close with me taking lrm fire all the way in then uac fire. Most of the time they don't even make it to effective ac20 range.

I just think we might be in two completely different universes friend.

Edited by Texas Merc, 04 February 2016 - 09:44 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Malachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 09:39 PM, said:

Well, I specialize in assaults as well and have you both beat by quite a bit in the dires... last I looked had well over 200 matches. People need to be careful when they say someone shouldn't do something
Any weapon in game can be used to devastating effect. Yes lrm 20s are slow and have a large spread. And they aren't my primary weapon either. I have used dual lrm 10s, srms, streak srms, and kept going back to the 20s. For how I use them they just work better. Any build is subjective to the user. Just because I can kick an atlas to the curb regularly doesn't mean everyone can. Same with those who claim vice versa. Last atlas I killed I did 394 damage in 20 to 30 seconds. He hit me once at extreme range with his ac. He made it to 370 meters before he died. I've popped em at close range too. I'm tier 3 so I've taken on pretty much all levels. Ultimately I guess my position is that the Kodiak doesn't bother me much. It may be able to close faster but in the end it will have weaknesses too and the old dire will be able to take it too. Do I blow up? Alot. But I usually have 3 or 4 others that I take with me. Knowing how to use your load out and fight your mech will always win over someone who is driving the flavor of the month.

Wintersdark said he had over 50 HOURs playing in match as a dire wolf, not matches, at 10 minutes a match on average that would be well over 300 matches, he probably has more.

In my Dire Wolf I have 100 matches, I have over 600 matches overall piloting assaults. What we're saying is that not only is it subjectively better than a Dire Wolf, but on paper it is *objectively* better than a Dire Wolf in pretty much every way in a match. We're also both used to fighting more experienced opponents than your normal T3 crowd. While you say any build is subjective to the user, some builds are objectively better than others, can be used in the same way, and will still yield better results.

[Malachy Karrde]

Dakota1000, on 04 February 2016 - 09:30 PM, said:

LRM 20s are the least handy of all the LRM types even if you know how to use them and do use them to their full potential, they are objectively worse than the other types and there has been testing done to see just how much worse they are.

Also after explaining to me that Atlases are trying to close with you from outside of effective AC20 range and are getting chewed up by LRMs and UACs I can see that you definitely aren't going up against good pilots.

been playing since beta ended, I've seen em all. Lost some won some. And for an atlas to work effectively it has to close. A good dire pilot can pick where he engages and prevent that. And if they do close... still has the firepower advantage, but gets chewed up more. I've said it before, you gotta pick your terrain, and fight your loadout to its strengths. Can you point me to the lrm 20 research? They seem to do a lot more damage than dual 10s or dual 15s the way I use them but I'm open to positive changes if it let's me pop people faster lol. I'm Also Pouring AC Fire Into My Targets At The Same Time So I can't really argue with you... I have the mass so put them in and they worked really well so far. As I said they are a secondary weapon so I'm not married to them if something works better. I think I am successful in dires because I don't brawl with them against anything that's the same size. That's probably the key.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Malachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

been playing since beta ended, I've seen em all. Lost some won some. And for an atlas to work effectively it has to close. A good dire pilot can pick where he engages and prevent that. And if they do close... still has the firepower advantage, but gets chewed up more. I've said it before, you gotta pick your terrain, and fight your loadout to its strengths. Can you point me to the lrm 20 research? They seem to do a lot more damage than dual 10s or dual 15s the way I use them but I'm open to positive changes if it let's me pop people faster lol. I'm Also Pouring AC Fire Into My Targets At The Same Time So I can't really argue with you... I have the mass so put them in and they worked really well so far. As I said they are a secondary weapon so I'm not married to them if something works better. I think I am successful in dires because I don't brawl with them against anything that's the same size. That's probably the key.

I've been playing since before beta ended :L

Not that it matters...
Also if you, in that slow moving cargo ship that is a Dire Wolf, can pick your killing field, an Atlas moving faster and with much better maneuverability can definitely pick his, and probably a better one than yours while hes at it.

I'll try to find the LRM research for you, but for now I'll just say that the thing that makes LRM20s bad isn't that they put out less damage overall, its that they put out less effective damage, they have way more spread than the LRM10s. Its similar to the difference between an LBX10 and an AC10, they both put out 10 damage but only one is getting all that damage where you want it. Another thing against the LRM20 is that it has the longest cooldown time of any weapon in the game. So you will be putting out more damage on average with an LRM20, but you will be killing much slower, its like trying to murder someone by beating them with a spoon softly.

Basically the LRM20 gets a lot of shots on the arms and side torsos while an LRM10 would get most on the CT and a little on the side torsos.

[Malachy Karrde]

Dakota1000, on 04 February 2016 - 09:52 PM, said:

Wintersdark said he had over 50 HOURs playing in match as a dire wolf, not matches, at 10 minutes a match on average that would be well over 300 matches, he probably has more.

In my Dire Wolf I have 100 matches, I have over 600 matches overall piloting assaults. What we're saying is that not only is it subjectively better than a Dire Wolf, but on paper it is *objectively* better than a Dire Wolf in pretty much every way in a match. We're also both used to fighting more experienced opponents than your normal T3 crowd. While you say any build is subjective to the user, some builds are objectively better than others, can be used in the same way, and will still yield better results.

thought he said matches. I've 396 in dires alone, 3627 played in all mechs [you made me look lol]. Tier 3 let's me play against pretty much anyone. I've fought tier 1, I've fought tier 5. I've been tier 2 before but lost a lot trying to figure out the Warhammer. I've been around the block. If it works for you fine... use it... I know what works for me. Basically I'm saying dires can hang with anything and I do.
You just have to know how to use them. For you, an atlas may be better...I get plastered in them, they don't fit my playstyle. I've mastered them though and sold all but the champion one. Most of the people who bad mouth dires either haven't used them enough or haven't learned to fight them to their strengths. If you are careful and pay attention to what you are doing, a good dire pilot can go against anything out there and be reasonably confident of holding his own. I'm more afraid of spiders than anything over 40 tons tbh. But, put your back to a wall and that spider is gonna have a bad day. I play mainly pug matches. I never have the same team... when I play cw...sadly the dire is too heavy [I don't use lights] so have to go down to a warhawk. These threads are always interesting because I get some insight into the competition and how they fight... I just get annoyed when people trash my favorite chassis.

[John1352]

I have my doubts about the Kodiak being outright better than the Dire Wolf.

The best Kodiak builds will probably use endosteel and an XL350. Compared to a Dire with equal armor that build will have:
-7 free slots for endosteel
+4 free slots due to 2 extra engine heatsinks
-4 free slots due to fixed lower arm/hand

-6.5 free tons for the bigger engine
+5 free tons from endosteel

Total: 7 less free slots and 1.5 less free tons. That's 3(.5?) less double heatsinks, and if you've used the Direwolf you'll know that ~40 tons of weapons tends to run really hot.

Edited by John1352, 04 February 2016 - 10:14 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Malachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

thought he said matches. I've 396 in dires alone, 3627 played in all mechs [you made me look lol]. Tier 3 let's me play against pretty much anyone. I've fought tier 1, I've fought tier 5. I've been tier 2 before but lost a lot trying to figure out the Warhammer. I've been around the block. If it works for you fine... use it... I know what works for me. Basically I'm saying dires can hang with anything and I do.
You just have to know how to use them. For you, an atlas may be better...I get plastered in them, they don't fit my playstyle. I've mastered them though and sold all but the champion one. Most of the people who bad mouth dires either haven't used them enough or haven't learned to fight them to their strengths. If you are careful and pay attention to what you are doing, a good dire pilot can go against anything out there and be reasonably confident of holding his own. I'm more afraid of spiders than anything over 40 tons tbh. But, put your back to a wall and that spider is gonna have a bad day. I play mainly pug matches. I never have the same team... when I play cw...sadly the dire is too heavy [I don't use lights] so have to go down to a warhawk. These threads are always interesting because I get some insight into the competition and how they fight... I just get annoyed when people trash my favorite chassis.

Once the Kodiak comes out you probably will still be able to do just as well as with what you are doing, already, but what we are saying is that a Kodiak would be able to do most, if not all, of the same things your Dire Wolf currently does, but also do considerably more or do it easier.

Also I was unable to find the exact page from the LRM testing so far.

Edited by Dakota1000, 04 February 2016 - 10:18 PM.

[Malachy Karrde]

Dakota1000, on 04 February 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

I've been playing since before beta ended :L

Not that it matters...
Also if you, in that slow moving cargo ship that is a Dire Wolf, can pick your killing field, an Atlas moving faster and with much better maneuverability can definitely pick his, and probably a better one than yours while hes at it.

I'll try to find the LRM research for you, but for now I'll just say that the thing that makes LRM20s bad isn't that they put out less damage overall, its that they put out less effective damage, they have way more spread than the LRM10s. Its similar to the difference between an LBX10 and an AC10, they both put out 10 damage but only one is getting all that damage where you want it. Another thing against the LRM20 is that it has the longest cooldown time of any weapon in the game. So you will be putting out more damage on average with an LRM20, but you will be killing much slower, its like trying to murder someone by beating them with a spoon softly.

Basically the LRM20 gets a lot of shots on the arms and side torsos while an LRM10 would get most on the CT and a little on the side torsos.

I think we've established our bonafides... we are both veteran pilots and I don't think either of us is going to convince the other that his whale is better lol. Thanks for the info on the lrms... thought I knew everything about them lol...I'd love to see the research if you ever find it. I kinda use them to soften up the target while he's closing. Helps sand off armor making my uac more effective and hit vitals. My whole build is based on putting most damage out at 300 to 600 meters. The lasers are my "oh ****...we are brawling" weapon. The damage they do at 200 meters combines with uac on rapid fire and still using lrms allows me to cycle around 150 to 200 damage for every single time an ac 20 can cycle. If the target survives all that I give up lol. Except for the lrm 20... all my weapons cycle really fast and generate little heat. Hmm... may be time to revisit my loadout again... if I can get more missiles on target....lol

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I did find the information I was mentioning with LRMs, but those were IS ones with Artemis, which both of those qualities decrease the spread on the LRM20s greatly. Even still two ALRM20 was barely able to surpass two ALRM10s, and in doing so used much more ammo and weight.

In a clan mech without Artemis the spread on the LRM20s would be nearly double, I've tried LRM20s before and noticed that even in the testing ground firing at stationary targets at least a quarter of my LRMs would go past an Atlas, and it would do maybe 2 to 3 points of damage to each component. When I went with LRM10s instead all the shots were hitting and most was on the CT and side torsos.

You could probably set your mech up with artemis and move the LRMs down to LRM15s. You said you usually fire on targets you are aiming at and hitting with your UACs, artemis helps greatly in a situation like that. They would be pretty tight compared to the LRM20, reload faster, get most damage on the CT, use less ammo per volley, and still be lighter and take up less slots. Not to mention the faster targeting speed.

Give it a try and good luck.

[Sorbic]

Malachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

been playing since beta ended, I've seen em all. Lost some won some. And for an atlas to work effectively it has to close. A good dire pilot can pick where he engages and prevent that. And if they do close... still has the firepower advantage, but gets chewed up more. I've said it before, you gotta pick your terrain, and fight your loadout to its strengths. Can you point me to the lrm 20 research? They seem to do a lot more damage than dual 10s or dual 15s the way I use them but I'm open to positive changes if it let's me pop people faster lol. I'm Also Pouring AC Fire Into My Targets At The Same Time So I can't really argue with you... I have the mass so put them in and they worked really well so far. As I said they are a secondary weapon so I'm not married to them if something works better. I think I am successful in dires because I don't brawl with them against anything that's the same size. That's probably the key.

Malachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

Can you point me to the lrm 20 research? They seem to do a lot more damage than dual 10s or dual 15s the way I use them but I'm open to positive changes if it let's me pop people faster lol.

Basically it works out like this. LRM 20's will do more dmg but it's spread among many parts. When using smaller tubes more of them hit the core (if the git isn't twisting) resulting in less ammo used per kill. But it's kinda a trade off as often times I see people, repeatedly, only landing 1 salvo before the enemys safe. In such fights a LRM 20 will be do more to hurt the enemy even if the LRMs are being spread but if you catch an enemy in the open more smaller tubes equaling near/the same number of missiles will kill them faster. This matters more on mechs that can boat several racks as fitting 2 LRM5's on a DW would be kinda meh. Try 15's and see how you like it.

[1Grimbane]

As kayne west would so gracefully say.. "PGi does not care about assault mechs"

[CygnusX7]

Speak up!!

I always say.. Grouping with our assaults and actually do it. Usually the rest of the team follows.

[Khobai]

Quote

Kodiak still doesn't have hard point flexibility.

But its hardpoints are good enough that it's a non-issue.

And it gets way better flexibility being a battlemech than an omnimech since it doesnt have locked equipment.

It basically carries the same weapons/armor and goes way faster. Doesnt matter if the hitboxes are worse because going way faster is still much better than having worse hitboxes for an assault mech.

Quote

Wintersdark said he had over 50 HOURs playing in match as a dire wolf, not matches, at 10 minutes a match on average that would be well over 300 matches, he probably has more.

I have like twice that many matches played with just ONE variant of my direwolf...

Dire Wolf used to be good gundam. Now Dire Wolf is bad gundam. I dont play it anymore. Ever. Daishi lives up to its namesake "great death" because you will die horribly every game.

Edited by Khobai, 05 February 2016 - 08:05 AM.

[nehebkau]

Every time I see assaults getting left behind it is because they have stopped to shoot...

[Wintersdark]

Khobai, on 05 February 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

But its hardpoints are good enough that it's a non-issue.

And it gets way better flexibility being a battlemech than an omnimech since it doesnt have locked equipment.

It basically carries the same weapons/armor and goes way faster. Doesnt matter if the hitboxes are worse because going way faster is still much better than having worse hitboxes for an assault mech.



I have like twice that many matches played with just ONE variant of my direwolf...

Dire Wolf used to be good gundam. Now Dire Wolf is bad gundam. I dont play it anymore. Ever. Daishi lives up to its namesake "great death" because you will die horribly every game.

Exactly.

And while the Kodiak's hitboxes are unknown, an important consideration is that it's side profile is going to be almost all arm, while the NeuteredWolf? You can always hit the ST or CT.

I've got some 500 matches in my DWF's, and I can't recall ever losing an arm before a side torso. And I cut my arms to half their regular armour. It's very easy to choose to target a side torso from any angle.

But yeah, Khobai above is completely correct, speed trumps hitboxes on a slow mech, because speed allows you to either not get hit at all, or control where you get hit.

Since the mobility skill nerfs, the DWF is at best situational, but overall a poor mech.

The only substantial differences between a Kodiak and Direwolf are:
The Kodiak is faster and more agile.
The Kodiak appears to have better geometry (the DWF's brick shape is a disadvantage, completely - it has a huge profile from every angle.)
The Kodiak has no locked equipment (like 2t jump jets to use certain hardpoint configurations, or the DHS stuck in side torsos costing you another 2 crit slots per side torso)
The Kodiak can add or remove endo for tonnage or slots, depending on its loadout.
The Direwolf can run 6xuac5.
One Kodiak variant can pack MASC, allowing it bursts of up to 90kph and near instantaneous acceleration/massively increased turn rate.

Basically, the Direwolf was a prime Assault before the agi nerfs despite its poor profile, but those nerfs gave it huge, glaring weaknesses.

The Kodiak can directly mitigate all those weaknesses.

I loved my DWF's, but the only way a Kodiak will be worse at ANYTHING than a Direwolf is if PGI truly drops the ball on hitboxes to an absurd never-before-done degree. Or grossly negaquirks it out of the box, but that's highly doubtful. Otherwise, its simply going to be better at every kind of play.

Edited by Wintersdark, 05 February 2016 - 10:15 AM.

[borisof007]

John1352, on 04 February 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

I have my doubts about the Kodiak being outright better than the Dire Wolf.

The best Kodiak builds will probably use endosteel and an XL350. Compared to a Dire with equal armor that build will have:
-7 free slots for endosteel
+4 free slots due to 2 extra engine heatsinks
-4 free slots due to fixed lower arm/hand

-6.5 free tons for the bigger engine
+5 free tons from endosteel

Total: 7 less free slots and 1.5 less free tons. That's 3(.5?) less double heatsinks, and if you've used the Direwolf you'll know that ~40 tons of weapons tends to run really hot.

It seems the issues people are having with the DWF are shared among a few other assault mechs. Mobility and hitbox are an issue, but that's by design.

I still stick with my Atlas with one or two variants (Founders, cause I'm so OG, and the occasional ECM build on its brother). It's lumbering, big, loves to draw attention (freeing my teammates to do other things like not dying), and can dish out some pain. I run with my own drone and a cooling flush just in case things get dicey or I need to "call for backup" by highlighting everyone in my area with the drone.

The Kodiak will be able to carry the same kind of firepower while also being more mobile, but it will also come with its own drawbacks I'm sure. Let's give the mech a chance to show what it can do.

[Wintersdark]

Even... *vomits in mouth* at being a lurmboat.

[Khobai]

Quote

Total: 7 less free slots and 1.5 less free tons. That's 3(.5?) less double heatsinks, and if you've used the Direwolf you'll know that ~40 tons of weapons tends to run really hot.

I know if only there was an entire subset of weapons like ballistics or something that didnt generate much heat.

Heat is a non issue for the Kodiak 3 that will be running quad UAC10s.