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Slow Assaults Still Pointless


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#1 riverslq

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 07:54 PM

the other 10 on the team leave me and the other fatlas behind
we get wrecked.
noone helps.
good job pugs.
good job.

back to lights, where it doesn't matter if my team is dumb.

#2 Dont Brawl With This Atlas

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:03 PM

happens a lot at polar map but on other maps its manageable

#3 Khobai

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:04 PM

I agree slow assaults need help.

PGI doesnt seem to care though. Theyre just making the problem worse by adding faster assaults like the Kodiak that will completely outclass slower assaults like the Dire Wolf.

Its already been pointed out the Kodiak can carry the same firepower/armor as a Dire Wolf while going 12kph faster simply because, unlike the Dire Wolf, it can take Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous, and pump all the extra tonnage into engine.

PGI needs to fix starting spawns, fix hill climbing for assaults, and address issues with specific mechs like the Dire Wolf; a 100 ton mech with a locked 300 engine just doesnt work in the current game. PGI needs to slow down all the fast heavies too, because theyre mostly whats caused the whole problem.

Edited by Khobai, 04 February 2016 - 08:12 PM.


#4 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:07 PM

View PostKhobai, on 04 February 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

I agree slow assaults need help.

PGI doesnt seem to care though. Theyre just making the problem worse by adding faster assaults like the Kodiak that will completely outclass slower assaults like the Dire Wolf.

Its already been pointed out the Kodiak can carry the same firepower/armor as a Dire Wolf while going 12kph faster simply because, unlike the Dire Wolf, it can take Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous, and pump all the extra tonnage into engine.


"But the Dire Wolf is OP!1!"

Poor thing.

#5 Malachy Karrde

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:11 PM

I have no problem in the Dire Wolf. I hardly ever do less than 800 damage and it can take a heavy pounding. If you fight them properly, it doesn't really matter if your team are morons. Ive fought countless matches where my team left me and ive racked up more kills than my whole team combined. My best was 9 kills to win the match. I LIKE a challenge. Not everyone can hop in a Dire and make it work, but those that can, are going to kick *** and take names.

#6 Khobai

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:13 PM

Quote

I have no problem in the Dire Wolf.


Still doesnt change the fact the Kodiak will be outright better.

#7 sycocys

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:16 PM

View PostKhobai, on 04 February 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:


Still doesnt change the fact the Kodiak will be outright better.

I'm just waiting for the endless stream of P2W threads for the 3 or whatever months until the nerf it and sell it for c-bills.

#8 LordNothing

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:21 PM

assaults arent some magical way to suck less. if anything they are hard mode. if you have good teamwork they are less hard, but it is very easy to get it in a bad spot regardless of what the rest of the team does. i once backstabbed a direwhale to death while it was in the middle of 3 heavies. to add insult to injury the other heavies did team damage on their assault as they tried to kill me. i killed it, got out alive circled back and took out one of the heavies too. so sometimes even teamwork doesnt help. ive been on the other side of that too. assaults tend to draw fire and get focused first. it is very easy to get separated from your team if you let you situational awareness slip for even a few seconds. assaults are hard mode and if you are new get used to heavies first.

Edited by LordNothing, 04 February 2016 - 08:22 PM.


#9 Malachy Karrde

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:23 PM

I doubt that the Kodiak will be better, it will be a little different but better...nah. it seems to have a much bigger profile and it has fixed hardpoints. The dire allows you to have any weapon where you want it save missiles. Also the bigger engines etc will take much more room or slots. And I bet if you use an XL engine in the Kodiak you go boom when your torso is lost. Remember folks, its no Omni. I am not impressed at all with its hardpoints in any of the builds. It seems rather low on sheer number of hardpoints as well. It looks like a faster atlas and the atlas cant take a dire head on. Atlas has pretty bad slot problems. I think we will see a lot o Kodiaks for awhile, but Knowing PGI, they will have some enormous drawback to keep them balanced. I don't even intend to buy one...it looks cool but that's about all it has going for it imo

Edited by Malachy Karrde, 04 February 2016 - 08:31 PM.


#10 Wintersdark

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:43 PM

View Postriverslq, on 04 February 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

the other 10 on the team leave me and the other fatlas behind
we get wrecked.
noone helps.
good job pugs.
good job.

back to lights, where it doesn't matter if my team is dumb.

Only an issue on PH.

On any other map, you should be moving at 100% throttle to where your team will engage from the very moment you're able to start moving.

I never get left behind, even in a Dire Wolf. Ever. In most matches, I'm leading the pack, because so very often people just mill around for 10 seconds or so at the start of a match.


So:


1) Hit the ground from the dropship already at 100% throttle. Go. Take direct routes, don't [Richard] around.
2) Light shot at you? DON'T STOP, DON'T TURN AND ENGAGE. Do that, and you get left. MOVE. Yes, sometimes, you'll eat a few ERLL shots. Suck it up - assault armor is there for a reason.

The only chance you'll get left behind is if it's a particularly vigorous NASCAR match, and even then only after a fair bit of NASCARing - unless you stop to shoot at someone or ridgehump while the rest of the team NASCAR's on.

So, in the Worst Case Scenario, a vigorous NASCAR match:

It sucks to run around in a circle and do nothing, but it's better than dying, and NASCAR matches are lost by having the slow mechs get picked off. Yes, this is because the fast mechs left them behind, but you can't make your teammates better. You can adapt, however. Start moving, keep moving, only engage when you're in front, otherwise be moving forwards. Even if you're not engaging early in the match, your time will come. If you're not getting picked off uselessly, then you're fresh for when you do engage later in the match and your team is up in kills.

And there's little scarier than fresh Direwolves etc when you're in a ratbagged mech late in a match.

#11 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:44 PM

View PostMalachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

I doubt that the Kodiak will be better, it will be a little different but better...nah. it seems to have a much bigger profile and it has fixed hardpoints. The dire allows you to have any weapon where you want it save missiles. Also the bigger engines etc will take much more room or slots. And I bet if you use an XL engine in the Kodiak you go boom when your torso is lost. Remember folks, its no Omni. I am not impressed at all with its hardpoints in any of the builds. It seems rather low on sheer number of hardpoints as well. It looks like a faster atlas and the atlas cant take a dire head on. Atlas has pretty bad slot problems. I think we will see a lot o Kodiaks for awhile, but Knowing PGI, they will have some enormous drawback to keep them balanced. I don't even intend to buy one...it looks cool but that's about all it has going for it imo


You don't seem to understand.

Its still a clan mech, it has the same type of engines that any of the other clan omnimechs have, but it can swap them out. You need to lose both sides before you fall over.

It also has a variant for most things you would want to do in a Dire Wolf. 1 has 9 energy hardpoints, 4 per arm, and still comes with a ballistic slot and a missile, 3 has 2 ballistics per torso allowing you to do a quad UAC10 build but with endo steel and ferro fibrous you can have a bigger engine than the Dire Wolf and still have the same amount of ammo. It also doesn't have any locked equipment, so you can cut out some unneeded heat sinks in ballistic builds for an even larger engine and more ammo. It also has variants to missile boat, which the Dire can't do, those variants still have energy and ballistic backups too.

It also is bigger but will be Atlas shaped, so you'll have decent hitboxes for brawling, unlike the Dire Wolf.

If you want to boat UAC10s, its objectively better. Same can be said for most other loadouts it runs.

#12 Clownwarlord

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:44 PM

Bad team work causes bad results.

#13 Wintersdark

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:46 PM

View PostMalachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

I doubt that the Kodiak will be better, it will be a little different but better...nah. it seems to have a much bigger profile and it has fixed hardpoints. The dire allows you to have any weapon where you want it save missiles. Also the bigger engines etc will take much more room or slots. And I bet if you use an XL engine in the Kodiak you go boom when your torso is lost. Remember folks, its no Omni. I am not impressed at all with its hardpoints in any of the builds. It seems rather low on sheer number of hardpoints as well. It looks like a faster atlas and the atlas cant take a dire head on. Atlas has pretty bad slot problems. I think we will see a lot o Kodiaks for awhile, but Knowing PGI, they will have some enormous drawback to keep them balanced. I don't even intend to buy one...it looks cool but that's about all it has going for it imo

*sighs* Bigger engines weigh more, but they don't take more slots.

You use an XL. It does NOT go boom, because it's a Clan XL. Clan Battlemechs still use Clan tech.

It's got plenty of hardpoints; easily enough, typically 11ish. It can run, on one or another of it's variants, almost any DWF build (and ultimately, the vast majority of the actually good DWF builds), but it can do modifications of them better via having a 350+ rated engine and as such not just being a turret.

It's taller and larger looking, but is very likely to have Atlas style hitboxes: That is, it'll be able to tank way, way better than a Direwolf.

It's flat out better than the DWF.

#14 CanadianCyrus

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:54 PM

View PostDakota1000, on 04 February 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:


You don't seem to understand.

Its still a clan mech, it has the same type of engines that any of the other clan omnimechs have, but it can swap them out. You need to lose both sides before you fall over.

It also has a variant for most things you would want to do in a Dire Wolf. 1 has 9 energy hardpoints, 4 per arm, and still comes with a ballistic slot and a missile, 3 has 2 ballistics per torso allowing you to do a quad UAC10 build but with endo steel and ferro fibrous you can have a bigger engine than the Dire Wolf and still have the same amount of ammo. It also doesn't have any locked equipment, so you can cut out some unneeded heat sinks in ballistic builds for an even larger engine and more ammo. It also has variants to missile boat, which the Dire can't do, those variants still have energy and ballistic backups too.

It also is bigger but will be Atlas shaped, so you'll have decent hitboxes for brawling, unlike the Dire Wolf.

If you want to boat UAC10s, its objectively better. Same can be said for most other loadouts it runs.

Posted Image

Just need PGI to add the Commando IIC and the circle will be complete.

#15 Malachy Karrde

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:54 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 04 February 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

*sighs* Bigger engines weigh more, but they don't take more slots.

You use an XL. It does NOT go boom, because it's a Clan XL. Clan Battlemechs still use Clan tech.

It's got plenty of hardpoints; easily enough, typically 11ish. It can run, on one or another of it's variants, almost any DWF build (and ultimately, the vast majority of the actually good DWF builds), but it can do modifications of them better via having a 350+ rated engine and as such not just being a turret.

It's taller and larger looking, but is very likely to have Atlas style hitboxes: That is, it'll be able to tank way, way better than a Direwolf.

It's flat out better than the DWF.


I guess I'm not impressed with the Atlas. I've primarily used dire wolves since they became available with a few breaks to master other mechs. An atlas cannot take the pounding a well piloted and built dire can put out. You don't need to tank in a dire wolf. You just need to open fire if you have a good build. And dual lrm 20s is pretty frigging effective as a missile boat. I've never seen an atlas that isn't crippled by an alpha from the whale. At worst I blow his arm off in one shot and my instant follow up takes out the rest of him. Only time I've been bested by an atlas is when one held back and shot me in the back as I was finishing a timber wolf. If you are not 1 or 2 hitting everything in your dire... you need to re evaluate your play style.


Kodiak still doesn't have hard point flexibility. Everyone who plays this game is always looking for an I win button... Kodiak isn't going to do that and those who stick with mechs they mastered are going to still kick your tail between your ears.

Edited by Malachy Karrde, 04 February 2016 - 08:59 PM.


#16 Wintersdark

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:09 PM

View PostMalachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

I guess I'm not impressed with the Atlas. I've primarily used dire wolves since they became available with a few breaks to master other mechs. An atlas cannot take the pounding a well piloted and built dire can put out. You don't need to tank in a dire wolf. You just need to open fire if you have a good build. And dual lrm 20s is pretty frigging effective as a missile boat. I've never seen an atlas that isn't crippled by an alpha from the whale. At worst I blow his arm off in one shot and my instant follow up takes out the rest of him. Only time I've been bested by an atlas is when one held back and shot me in the back as I was finishing a timber wolf. If you are not 1 or 2 hitting everything in your dire... you need to re evaluate your play style.


Kodiak still doesn't have hard point flexibility. Everyone who plays this game is always looking for an I win button... Kodiak isn't going to do that and those who stick with mechs they mastered are going to still kick your tail between your ears.


I have 52 hours in-match time in the cockpit of a Direwolf, and 655 kills - solo pugging, and not at rookie level play. I know exactly what they are capable of. And no, under no circumstances should a Direwolf ever, EVER, be packing 2xLRM20.

Hard point flexibility doesn't matter at all on the battlefield. What matters is what builds you can bring to the table.

The KDK can bring all the same builds, except the 6xAC5 sort of dakka build (which while tons of fun is absolutely nowhere near an optimal loadout). But most importantly, it's not so horrifically cumbersome. Even at 350 rating, it'll be able to eat way more fire and brawl far better, while bringing comparable loadouts to the table. The DWF was a god-tier mech, right up to those agility nerfs. Now, it's just not. It's still very good at being a turret, but that's all it's good at now.

The issue with form is interesting. The humanoid form isn't necessarily better, but it IS better at spreading damage: A substantial issue the DWF has. The DWF cannot spread damage at all, unless you're playing in scrub-tier land. It just can't twist fast enough, and it's huge and bulky. Twist all you like, people can still hit your CT when you're twisted as far as you can go. And that twist rate? It's so abysmally slow, only the worst shots are spreading damage.

So, yeah, the DWF will win a face off against another Assault. But the problem is that it will do that taking a lot of damage to one particular area, and this really reduces it's effectiveness against the next mech that comes along. And now? An ACH or such will just dance around you laughing while it rear-cores you in two alphas. It's not like you can ensure you only face slower assaults: being the slowest thing on the battlefield, you get what decides to engage you.

#17 Sable

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:14 PM

Whats funny is that before they announced the kodiak there were multiple threads saying how lame the kodiak was going to be and how it would be DOA, wahhhhh. Now that we see the variants people are whining about how OP awesome it will be vs the direwolf. Funny how things work out.

#18 Texas Merc

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:15 PM

View PostMalachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

I guess I'm not impressed with the Atlas. I've primarily used dire wolves since they became available with a few breaks to master other mechs. An atlas cannot take the pounding a well piloted and built dire can put out. You don't need to tank in a dire wolf. You just need to open fire if you have a good build. And dual lrm 20s is pretty frigging effective as a missile boat. I've never seen an atlas that isn't crippled by an alpha from the whale. At worst I blow his arm off in one shot and my instant follow up takes out the rest of him. Only time I've been bested by an atlas is when one held back and shot me in the back as I was finishing a timber wolf. If you are not 1 or 2 hitting everything in your dire... you need to re evaluate your play style.


Kodiak still doesn't have hard point flexibility. Everyone who plays this game is always looking for an I win button... Kodiak isn't going to do that and those who stick with mechs they mastered are going to still kick your tail between your ears.

Uh okay. first shooting an Atlas arms should do nothing to it since it has no weapons in its arms if its built for what it is supposed to do. and also you are carrying dual lrm20s on a diashi, hmm.


you know what I really dont have anything to add after reading all of this again.

#19 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:19 PM

View PostMalachy Karrde, on 04 February 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

I guess I'm not impressed with the Atlas. I've primarily used dire wolves since they became available with a few breaks to master other mechs. An atlas cannot take the pounding a well piloted and built dire can put out. You don't need to tank in a dire wolf. You just need to open fire if you have a good build. And dual lrm 20s is pretty frigging effective as a missile boat. I've never seen an atlas that isn't crippled by an alpha from the whale. At worst I blow his arm off in one shot and my instant follow up takes out the rest of him. Only time I've been bested by an atlas is when one held back and shot me in the back as I was finishing a timber wolf. If you are not 1 or 2 hitting everything in your dire... you need to re evaluate your play style.


Kodiak still doesn't have hard point flexibility. Everyone who plays this game is always looking for an I win button... Kodiak isn't going to do that and those who stick with mechs they mastered are going to still kick your tail between your ears.


I don't have as much experience using Dire Wolves as Wintersdark, but I've piloted them for over 100 matches and specialize in assault mechs in general.

That said 2 LRM20s is a terrible LRM boat, the spread is atrocious and the cooldown is terrible, you'd be better off using 2 LRM10s.

Also, as an Atlas pilot, it can take quite a beating from a Dire Wolf and win easily. If I am in an Atlas and have not killed a Dire Wolf after 3 Alphas I'm doing horribly that day. An Atlas S normally runs with an AC20, 4 ASRM6, and sometimes 2 MLs. for an alpha over 80 damage. You fire, then twist. An Atlas's arm can take 112 points of damage, and it has two of them. If the Atlas pilot is good he will have spread most of the damage a Dire Wolf can do to the arms and side torsos and will have ample time to take you down even in a direct confrontation.

If you started over 600m away from that Atlas and the Atlas pilot was bad enough to not use cover and just walk at you then you would easily kill him, but that's about it.

I've seen some pretty terrible Atlas builds and some horrible Atlas pilots though, its no surprise you ripped them apart.

Edited by Dakota1000, 05 February 2016 - 01:32 PM.


#20 Malachy Karrde

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:24 PM

View PostTexas Merc, on 04 February 2016 - 09:15 PM, said:

Uh okay. first shooting an Atlas arms should do nothing to it since it has no weapons in its arms if its built for what it is supposed to do. and also you are carrying dual lrm20s on a diashi, hmm.


you know what I really dont have anything to add after reading all of this again.


Atlas pilots like to twist so sometimes you get an arm. It doesn't help much though from my experience. And lrm 20s are handy if you know how to use them. I've tried all the builds. I'm not impressed with ballistic only builds, or laser only builds. Or missile only builds. A mix of all of the above allows one to be effective on any battlefield. And I don't whine if my dire gets stuck on polar highlands. It can run there as well as anywhere else. I love watching atlases try to close with me taking lrm fire all the way in then uac fire. Most of the time they don't even make it to effective ac20 range.





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