79 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Will MW:O ever become anything more than a Mecha Shooter about how many weapons can be perfectly converged on one spot?

With the LRMaggeddon exceptions, every dominant meta has always been about Alpha Strikes, and for good reason: it is simply the best way to kill opponents efficiently. There is absolutely no downside to it. It is the ONLY play style if you want to help your team.

Will PGI ever address it? Do a majority of the players even care?

IMO, perfectly precise group fired weapons are holding the game back from what it could have been. Game play has become stagnant and boring because of it. The only question when designing a layout is how much damage can I put on one pixel effectively?

[FupDup]

I'm detecting mixed signals here...do you think alpha striking alone the problem, or do you think just convergence alone that's the problem? They're not the same thing.

For reference, TT allowed extreme heat-neutral alpha strikes that dwarf those in MWO, but they just don't all hit one hitbox due to random hit locations.

[Monkey Lover]

I seen to many people complain about hot maps,cant change anything not in lore and mechs not dieing fast enough to say it will never happen.

[Hotthedd]

FupDup, on 05 February 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

I'm detecting mixed signals here...do you think alpha striking alone the problem, or do you think just convergence alone that's the problem? They're not the same thing.

For reference, TT allowed extreme heat-neutral alpha strikes that dwarf those in MWO, but they just don't all hit one hitbox due to random hit locations.

I'm saying the combination of the two breaks the game. Alpha Striking is part of the BT universe, but there were severe drawbacks in doing it. (Weapon spread being #1). By the same token, precision is part of the game as well, so I would not say get rid of that.

I suppose forcing a choice between precision and huge damage would be what I would like, but I was trying to gauge the forum communitiy's opinion.

[FupDup]

Hotthedd, on 05 February 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

I'm saying the combination of the two breaks the game. Alpha Striking is part of the BT universe, but there were severe drawbacks in doing it. (Weapon spread being #1). By the same token, precision is part of the game as well, so I would not say get rid of that.

I suppose forcing a choice between precision and huge damage would be what I would like, but I was trying to gauge the forum communitiy's opinion.

Weapon spread was a drawback of all weapons fire, not just alpha striking. Firing all the weapons over the course of several turns is just as inaccurate as firing them all in one turn.

There have been bazillions of forum suggestions on this topic but without any real effect, so I'm kinda meh.

[Cion]

Convergence issue would address this, but it's been tosses around (and rejected by PGI) so many times I have nothing more to add.

What could curb the tendency to alpha all the time would be to remove ghost heat per weapons and do something like: "generating more than 40% instantly of your total heat puts momentary stress on your reactor adding [insert something like a movement penalty or even extra 15‰ heat]"

Edited by Cion, 05 February 2016 - 11:54 AM.

[Hotthedd]

FupDup, on 05 February 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

Weapon spread was a drawback of all weapons fire, not just alpha striking. Firing all the weapons over the course of several turns is just as inaccurate as firing them all in one turn.

There have been bazillions of forum suggestions on this topic but without any real effect, so I'm kinda meh.

And cumulatively it still WOULD be, but individually shots would be precise (Precise =/= Accurate, accuracy would still be up to the pilot).

And this forum topic is more about how many players feel on the subject one way or the other.

Cion, on 05 February 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

Convergence issue would address this, but it's been tosses around (and rejected by PGI) so many times I have nothing more to add.

What could curb the tendency to alpha all the time would be to remove ghost heat per weapons and do something like: "generating more than 40% instantly of your total heat puts momentary stress on your reactor adding [insert something like a movement penalty or even extra 15‰ heat]"

I don't believe heat alone would do anything to curb the Alpha Strike meta, all of the damage still hits one pixel. You can cool off all you want when the target is dead.

[TimePeriod]

If I'm not dead in the first volley, I know I'm fighting scrubs. Thus my margins for victory suddenly rise in a order of magnitude.
(Piloting a zeus atm)

[cSand]

Hotthedd, on 05 February 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

I don't believe heat alone would do anything to curb the Alpha Strike meta, all of the damage still hits one pixel. You can cool off all you want when the target is dead.

If firing 4 lasers exploded your mech, it sure would

[Merit Lef]

BLUF (Bottom line up front): We wont ever get any type of convergence in this game. So working with what we have what can we change to improve it. Thus his question. For me I say get rid of Alpha and group fire. The game can be so much more dynamic without it. Engagements will be longer, allow more time for tactics, and less of a COD feel.

[cSand]

Merit Lef, on 05 February 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

BLUF (Bottom line up front): We wont ever get any type of convergence in this game. So working with what we have what can we change to improve it. Thus his question. For me I say get rid of Alpha and group fire. The game can be so much more dynamic without it. Engagements will be longer, allow more time for tactics, and less of a COD feel.

Well, then you will just have guys with macros that fire all weapons .0001 seconds apart

[Hotthedd]

cSand, on 05 February 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

If firing 4 lasers exploded your mech, it sure would

I do not believe even the most stringent heat scale advocate has ever suggested that.

[FupDup]

Merit Lef, on 05 February 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

BLUF (Bottom line up front): We wont ever get any type of convergence in this game. So working with what we have what can we change to improve it. Thus his question. For me I say get rid of Alpha and group fire. The game can be so much more dynamic without it. Engagements will be longer, allow more time for tactics, and less of a COD feel.

Requiring forced chainfire (aka removing group fire) would mean that only weapons with a relatively high amount of upfront "alpha" damage would be viable. Specifically, weapons with at least 10+ damage per shot would be the only ones worth using, except maybe the IS [ER]LL (9 damage).

Trying to use more than just a few weapons would result in too much exposure time and damage spreading to make it worth it.

Mechs that carry a large quantity of small to mid sized guns would be obsolete to mechs that carry a small number of big guns.

Edited by FupDup, 05 February 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[Hotthedd]

cSand, on 05 February 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

Well, then you will just have guys with macros that fire all weapons .0001 seconds apart

Not that I am suggesting it, but a global cooldown would solve that issue.

FupDup, on 05 February 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

Requiring forced chainfire (aka removing group fire) would mean that only weapons with a relatively high amount of upfront "alpha" damage would be viable. Specifically, weapons with at least 10+ damage per shot would be the only ones worth using, except maybe the IS [ER]LL (9 damage).

Mechs that carry a large quantity of small to mid sized guns would be obsolete to mechs that carry a small number of big guns.

That could be mitigated by making ACs all burst fire. (But that will never happen either)

[FupDup]

Hotthedd, on 05 February 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

That could be mitigated by making ACs all burst fire. (But that will never happen either)

Gauss, PPCs, LPL, and [ER]LL would then be the norm...although most of those already are (except PPCs).

[cSand]

Hotthedd, on 05 February 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

I do not believe even the most stringent heat scale advocate has ever suggested that.

Going back to the classic heatscale would solve a lot of problems. Peeking and firing off an alpha wouldn't be such a great idea if your 2 options are A shutdown in the open, or B override and suffer internal damage.

Also, I think alpha striking that generates a significant amount of heat, there should be a chance for a weapon to be destroyed. So yea you just wanged off 7 lasers. One of them unfortunately melted in the process

[Hotthedd]

cSand, on 05 February 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

Going back to the classic heatscale would solve a lot of problems. Peeking and firing off an alpha wouldn't be such a great idea if your 2 options are A shutdown in the open, or B override and suffer internal damage.

Also, I think alpha striking that generates a significant amount of heat, there should be a chance for a weapon to be destroyed. So yea you just wanged off 7 lasers. One of them unfortunately melted in the process

Still, 1 melted laser for me, one dead mech for my opponent. If all of my shots hit one spot, it breaks the game, IMO.

[Scyther]

In realistic terms, convergence changes aren't going to happen. Also if they did, people would just switch to mechs with weapon placements that favor placing a couple large weapons in a closely-grouped location.

I am mostly ok with the game even as it is, because the PPFLD that works for the enemy team also works for your team, so at least it's an even playing field.

I think the 'enforced chainfire on all weapons' concept is the only one that would be worth trying given the current setup. It would need (roughly) a 0.15 second 'global cooldown' after each weapon, so that macro-shooters couldn't sidestep it. (The GCD might need to differ by weapon)

Yes, PPCs/large ACs/Large Pulse lasers would become the weapons of choice, so what? They mostly are now. You would need more exposure time to do damage, so what? You would be facing less PPFLD than you are now, you can stand some more face time.

There wouldn't be a point in 'boating' more weapons than the chain-fire cycle length, so that would cure some of the 8-12 laser builds.

Maybe have MGs and Flamers the only weapons that could be group-fired, which would add a little utility to them.

[Mystere]

Hotthedd, on 05 February 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

Not that I am suggesting it, but a global cooldown would solve that issue.

Yuk! Yuk! Yuk!

I say pinpoint convergence in the presence of a lock and fixed convergence in the absence of one. In that way, locks actually do matter.

[Hotthedd]

FupDup, on 05 February 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

Gauss, PPCs, LPL, and [ER]LL would then be the norm...although most of those already are (except PPCs).

AFAIK though, nobody is complaining about only being hit with those weapons one at a time, or being hit by two or more of them in two or more different components. Like you say, it wouldn't necessarily change the loadouts too much (but it would improve game play IMO)