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Suggestion: Your Tier Level Is Evaluated Per Mech


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#1 Luca M Pryde

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:07 PM

What do you guys think?

#2 Tarogato

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:19 PM

No.

Problem is three-fold.

1. it would take forever for per-mech PSR to adequately evaluate a player-mech combination.
2. mech choice doesn't inherently impact player performance. I performed just as well in my unbasic'd Panthers as I do in my mastered Timberwolfs.
3. it's a lot more data for the server to keep track of per player. Instead of just one PSR value that the server has to store and reference, we're more than tresexagintupling the amount of data. It's so much less efficient for so little benefit. Just not worth it.

#3 Davers

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:35 PM

It would just take too long for everyone's PSR to normalize. Every time a new mech would get released it would throw MM right out the window as new players and Tier 1 vets would all be placed in the same pool.

#4 Luca M Pryde

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:47 PM

Sure, but then why do we need to skill up new mechs then if the tier system is supposed to be the measurement of skill?

Every-time we buy new mechs we just get slaughtered especially if you are in assaults. It makes grinding boring because it takes so long. And its frustrating because you know that you could perform certain things but you can't...so capitalist system...its like buying a house in Australia...

Perhaps another mode is needed to get your skills up more easily.

#5 Appogee

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:50 PM

Separate PSR per weight class could be a good compromise.

#6 Ted Wayz

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:53 PM

Have already discussed this in detail. it would work despite what these people say. It works every time we have a leaderboard event. But they hate the idea. Why?

Because it is easier to ride other people's coat-tails when your individual skill is not measured.

Using the leaderboard format would give a skill rating for each mech. So you could be tier 1 in one mech and tier 5 in another. When a new mech is released I would propose you be placed in the average your skill level in all mechs of that weight class. ZOMG!

Not hard and match maker can handle it. Just get ready for the tears when the l33ts can't hide behind their team.

View PostDavers, on 06 February 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

It would just take too long for everyone's PSR to normalize. Every time a new mech would get released it would throw MM right out the window as new players and Tier 1 vets would all be placed in the same pool.

You seem to think Tier 1 means anything more than they play more than most or they play in group. PSR is not a measure of skill. Just look how many of these Tier 1 players never make it onto a leaderboard. Ever.

#7 Appogee

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 10:33 PM

View PostLuca M Pryde, on 06 February 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

Sure, but then why do we need to skill up new mechs then if the tier system is supposed to be the measurement of skill?

Because Mechs are like Pokemon. They evolve with experience ;)

#8 Appogee

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 10:46 PM

View PostTed Wayz, on 06 February 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

</p>
You seem to think Tier 1 means anything more than they play more than most or they play in group. PSR is not a measure of skill.

Well it kind of is a measure of skill in most cases.

Yes, there is an overall upward movement in PSR with the number of games. It's easier to earn PSR points than it is to lose them, because a minor contribution to a win causes a bigger proportional increase in PSR than a major contribution to a loss. So yes, anyone achieving a 50/50 win/loss rate over time will overall go up.

However, those who are currently in Tier 1 got there faster because they are winning more matches - and making a bigger contribution to those wins - than people who are progressing more slowly. So yes, they are generally the most individually skilled players.

The one exception to this would be what you pointed out ... people who only play as part of a large skilled group, who 'ride the coat tails' of good players to achieve a high number of wins that they may not have personally had much to do with.

(I have observed this in my own unit. Some of our best players achieved Tier 1 quite quickly because they quite consistently scored &gt;400 Match Score. I on the other hand will only achieve Tier 1 in about a month, because my average Match Score is more in the 200-300 range. We also have a couple of guys who suffer terribly when they PUG, because they've been carried to a higher Tier on the backs of our group wins.)

For PSR to be more meaningful, PGI should:

1. set a quota for each Tier. For example, it might be the top 15% of the player population at any time, not the number of people who have exceed a certain clip level of PSR points.

2. use a more thoughtful criteria for winning and losing PSR points. The present formula puts too high an emphasis on damage (in effect, rewarding damage spammers and punishing those who kill efficiently. It also puts too high an emphasis on team wins, which is usually outside the player's control. (The flawed matchmaker has far more impact on whether a match is at all winnable or not.)

Edited by Appogee, 06 February 2016 - 10:51 PM.


#9 Texas Merc

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 10:51 PM

I want to believe that the OPs point is that basic'ing a new mech in the group queue can be hellish not only for you but for your friends in the group. There is a way to help if you have teammates that are helping you but alas most don't.

The system described in the OP would be way to difficult for a niche player base such as ours.

If a friend recommends a chassis or a build ask him to hang close and basically mirror what he does and the xp will come.

If you don't like that chassis play style or whatever you will know early on.

This is the best advice I have.

Edited by Texas Merc, 06 February 2016 - 10:52 PM.


#10 Wintersdark

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 10:54 PM

View PostLuca M Pryde, on 06 February 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

Every-time we buy new mechs we just get slaughtered especially if you are in assaults. It makes grinding boring because it takes so long. And its frustrating because you know that you could perform certain things but you can't...so capitalist system...its like buying a house in Australia...


Except that no.

If you don't suck, you don't get slaughtered in new mechs.

These days, the skill bonus is so minor, it doesn't have a hugely appreciable impact in normal play. You can be entirely effective in a mech without any skills. I had no trouble getting consistent skill ups with my IIC pack at tier 2, after all - and they're hardly OP mechs even when mastered.

Tier is a reflection of player skill and experience. Mech used is trivial in comparison to player skill.

View PostTexas Merc, on 06 February 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

I want to believe that the OPs point is that basic'ing a new mech in the group queue can be hellish not only for you but for your friends in the group. There is a way to help if you have teammates that are helping you but alas most don't.

In a small group in the group queue, sure. That's basically MWO hard mode. Your teammates helping you or not is absolutely controllable: If they're NOT going to help you, you're not going to work together, then why are you even bothering to play in the group queue? If you're not going to work together, then just go play in the solo queue.

In a large group, you're fine. The effectiveness difference is extremely unlikely to be the reason your whole team wins or loses. In the solo queue, you're fine as well.

Edited by Wintersdark, 06 February 2016 - 10:56 PM.


#11 Pjwned

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 10:57 PM

When ELO was the matchmaking system of choice, it had different ELO ratings for each weight class so that you didn't start off with the best people available when trying out your new Atlas or Locust.

I don't know why weight class isn't considered with PSR now, seems rather dumb honestly.

View PostWintersdark, on 06 February 2016 - 10:54 PM, said:


Except that no.

If you don't suck, you don't get slaughtered in new mechs.

These days, the skill bonus is so minor, it doesn't have a hugely appreciable impact in normal play. You can be entirely effective in a mech without any skills. I had no trouble getting consistent skill ups with my IIC pack at tier 2, after all - and they're hardly OP mechs even when mastered.

Tier is a reflection of player skill and experience. Mech used is trivial in comparison to player skill.


It still makes a big difference, it's just not an overwhelmingly stupid disadvantage to be basic, which is better than what it was but still not good.

Edited by Pjwned, 06 February 2016 - 11:00 PM.


#12 MrMadguy

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:13 PM

I agree. At least we need some per 'Mech PSR modifier. PSR - is just one number. It wouldn't be so hard to store it per 'Mech. Difference between 'Mechs' performance is tremendous. And it completely screws matchmaking. For example, when some event starts and players start to play in their best 'Mechs - game becomes literally unplayable. After playing better 'Mech all worse ones become permanently unplayable. This is just plain wrong and should be fixed.

#13 Wintersdark

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:14 PM

View PostPjwned, on 06 February 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

It still makes a big difference, it's just not an overwhelmingly stupid disadvantage to be basic, which is better than what it was but still not good.

How much of a difference depends heavily on tier and skill.

At the high end, where everyone is pretty skilled and experienced, sure.

In low level scrub tier play, down in T4/5? It makes very little difference. Most of the opposition doesn't have those modules, and those who do are terrible anyways so people are making critical mistakes that are far more damaging than the lack of modules.

Basically, if the modules matter a lot, any whales are going to progress out of scrub-tier faster and faster. If they don't, whales persist in those tiers till they learn to play... and the modules go on not making a huge difference in actual match results.

They matter, i get that. But take cooldown: How often do you actually benefit from it? Not nearly so much as one would think, as you're rarely firing weapons the instant they come off cooldown as things are currently. Your moving in and out of cover, you're twisting defensively, repositioning. Few builds these days can keep up any fire even close to weapon cycle times due to heat (see: laser vomit).

They matter, but a lot less than people think.

#14 MrMadguy

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:20 PM

Also, as I remember, PGI promised to implement new Pilot and 'Mech leveling systems long time ago.

#15 Wintersdark

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:21 PM

View PostMrMadguy, on 06 February 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

I agree. At least we need some per 'Mech PSR modifier. PSR - is just one number. It wouldn't be so hard to store it per 'Mech. Difference between 'Mechs' performance is tremendous. And it completely screws matchmaking. For example, when some event starts and players start to play in their best 'Mechs - game becomes literally unplayable. After playing better 'Mech all worse ones become permanently unplayable. This is just plain wrong and should be fixed.

********.

Why then can I drop in an un-skilled Awesome, at T2, and still hold my own? I'm not that good. Oh, sure, I'm not as effective as I would be in a better mech, but it's not like I'm doomed to do nothing either.

People playing in their best mechs and builds makes the game unplayable? That makes no sense at all. It's the same game. If your opposition is in better mechs, so is your team.

And really, even if you're doing something stupid like levelling mechs during an event, it's still perfectly easy to do that. Opposition may well be tougher, but that doesn't make the game "unplayable" unless you're way to highly rated and belong down a tier or two. Just a bit harder. Put on your big boy pants and play harder yourself. If you can't, maybe you're just rated too highly?

#16 MrMadguy

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:48 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 06 February 2016 - 11:21 PM, said:

********.

Why then can I drop in an un-skilled Awesome, at T2, and still hold my own? I'm not that good. Oh, sure, I'm not as effective as I would be in a better mech, but it's not like I'm doomed to do nothing either.

People playing in their best mechs and builds makes the game unplayable? That makes no sense at all. It's the same game. If your opposition is in better mechs, so is your team.

And really, even if you're doing something stupid like levelling mechs during an event, it's still perfectly easy to do that. Opposition may well be tougher, but that doesn't make the game "unplayable" unless you're way to highly rated and belong down a tier or two. Just a bit harder. Put on your big boy pants and play harder yourself. If you can't, maybe you're just rated too highly?

As I see here, many players don't understand, that "gear >> skill". May be because they don't have 70 different 'Mechs, like me. The difference between AWS-8R LRM60 boat and mixed build Highlander - is the same, as between Tier 1 and Tier 4 player. Yesterday I saw Gauss+laser vomit Atlas, that was literally one-shotting my teammates (one-shotted me in my Highlander for example). We started match winning 6:1. We ended match as 12:10 loss. He solely killed half of my team - 6 kills, almost 1K dmg. And don't tell me, that "it's skill".

Edited by MrMadguy, 06 February 2016 - 11:48 PM.


#17 El Bandito

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 12:09 AM

View PostLuca M Pryde, on 06 February 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

Sure, but then why do we need to skill up new mechs then if the tier system is supposed to be the measurement of skill?

Every-time we buy new mechs we just get slaughtered especially if you are in assaults. It makes grinding boring because it takes so long. And its frustrating because you know that you could perform certain things but you can't...so capitalist system...its like buying a house in Australia...

Perhaps another mode is needed to get your skills up more easily.


It's called Premium Time. Pay for convenience. Besides, you are not gonna play mechs that drags you down for noticeable length of time so it really won't affect your PSR much. I am leveling up the Adder and I am still at max T1 bar.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 February 2016 - 12:11 AM.


#18 Davers

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 12:36 AM

View PostTed Wayz, on 06 February 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:


You seem to think Tier 1 means anything more than they play more than most or they play in group. PSR is not a measure of skill. Just look how many of these Tier 1 players never make it onto a leaderboard. Ever.


It's still putting players who play a lot (as well as players that are very good) against players who either are not good, or haven't played as much.

#19 El Bandito

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 12:44 AM

View PostTed Wayz, on 06 February 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

You seem to think Tier 1 means anything more than they play more than most or they play in group. PSR is not a measure of skill. Just look how many of these Tier 1 players never make it onto a leaderboard. Ever.



Hahahahaha, what a laughable post! Leaderboard is in fact the true measurement of grind and luck, not skill. As a matter of fact, it is way easier to get on to the leaderboard if you are in low tier, which makes your statement such a joke.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 February 2016 - 12:46 AM.


#20 John1352

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 12:45 AM

Tier 5 would be full of locusts and commandos, tier 1 would be full of heavies and assaults.





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