31 replies to this topic

[MyriadDigits]

...for a King Crab. Now despite before buying having asked around in the chat, and being told it wasn't worth it, I did it anyway. This was entirely because I didn't see the point in trying to build for a zombie mech when getting to that point was rare for me to begin with, and when it did happen I was nothing more than a meat shield.

Now, I've been under the belief going from 200-500 damage on a quick match to 300-700 damage was a notable improvement, even if it comes at the cost of someone getting close a wrecking a side torso to kill me. However after getting yelled at by a talker who was spectating me and watched me die because of my XL I figured I'd come down here for the first time and ask:

Is my increased damage output an okay trade-off for being easier to kill?

[Surn]

Many situations require an assault to absorb damage. However, if you hate your teammates and just want the extra cbills...

Normally, your piloting decisions can improve your damage output anyhow. Anticipation can replace speed in many situations.

... Learning to anticipate the enemy is one of the advantages of piloting UP inner sphere mechs.

*under powered

[mailin]

It's a tough question to answer. An XL makes you faster for less weight, so theoretically, it will also allow you to torso twist faster and spread the damage as well as get out of sticky situations faster. I have a friend who runs XLs on his Stalkers he does fantastic with them. Really, only you can answer whether or not you want the XL in a King Crab. I feel that most here however would take the standard engine on a King Crab over the XL.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

I actually find XLs to be viable on King Crabs. Iirc the CT hit box is rather large on them.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

The problem with KGC XLs is that their hitboxes are a bit weird.

That shoulder joint on the KGC? It's not your arm. It's actually a bit of side torso. Which means that if someone was deliberately trying to destroy your XL (it's fairly obvious when they're packing way more heat than usual and/or moving fast), they can hit your ST from nearly a 270 degree angle, blocked only by the CT.

But if the enemies are not observant, XLs are actually quite okay on the KGC. Fast torso twist means that you can use those fat claws to block incoming fire.

[Darwins Dog]

MyriadDigits, on 08 February 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

...for a King Crab. Now despite before buying having asked around in the chat, and being told it wasn't worth it, I did it anyway. This was entirely because I didn't see the point in trying to build for a zombie mech when getting to that point was rare for me to begin with, and when it did happen I was nothing more than a meat shield.

Now, I've been under the belief going from 200-500 damage on a quick match to 300-700 damage was a notable improvement, even if it comes at the cost of someone getting close a wrecking a side torso to kill me. However after getting yelled at by a talker who was spectating me and watched me die because of my XL I figured I'd come down here for the first time and ask:

Is my increased damage output an okay trade-off for being easier to kill?

You have just discovered the greatest risk of running an XL assault: people who can't accept that you don't run a mech they way they want you to.

The thing to remember about assault mechs is that the damage they absorb is as important, in some cases more important, than the damage they deal. I had one particular match in my KGC where I absorbed at least 500 damage (I ended up at around 19% left). That alone negated one opponent's entire effort. While I was getting absolutely shredded, my teammates were taking out our opponents.

Its ultimately up to you to make the decision, just be prepared for armchair generals to tell you how it "should" be done.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

If YOU do better like that, then keep that right up! Screw that other yahoo.

Now, once you're up against opponents that can spot that you must be running an XL, you'll be in trouble. They'll focus one of your HUGE side torso sevments and take you out quick. (I know I'll be watching for you now that the secret's out!)

Seriously, do what works for you. But hold on to that old STD engine anyway, because you never know...

[IraqiWalker]

MyriadDigits, on 08 February 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

...for a King Crab. Now despite before buying having asked around in the chat, and being told it wasn't worth it, I did it anyway. This was entirely because I didn't see the point in trying to build for a zombie mech when getting to that point was rare for me to begin with, and when it did happen I was nothing more than a meat shield.

Now, I've been under the belief going from 200-500 damage on a quick match to 300-700 damage was a notable improvement, even if it comes at the cost of someone getting close a wrecking a side torso to kill me. However after getting yelled at by a talker who was spectating me and watched me die because of my XL I figured I'd come down here for the first time and ask:

Is my increased damage output an okay trade-off for being easier to kill?

You're right, he's wrong.

Answer this one question: Are you enjoying your new King Crab?

I have an XL 340 in one of them. I think I might be the only guy in the entire MWO population with an XL 340, and I have it in my KGC-000(L). I can tank damage, and spread it. Of course, I can't do it like a STD engine KGC can, but I can also knock an enemy mech out in 2 alphas. In this case, I traded some survivability, for a whole lot of firepower, and speed. For me, the trade off was just fine. I have even run that KGC in CW. It works for me, and I can take advantage of it.

If it works for you, go ahead, and do it.

[Rogue Jedi]

MyriadDigits, on 08 February 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

...for a King Crab. Now despite before buying having asked around in the chat, and being told it wasn't worth it, I did it anyway. This was entirely because I didn't see the point in trying to build for a zombie mech when getting to that point was rare for me to begin with, and when it did happen I was nothing more than a meat shield.

Now, I've been under the belief going from 200-500 damage on a quick match to 300-700 damage was a notable improvement, even if it comes at the cost of someone getting close a wrecking a side torso to kill me. However after getting yelled at by a talker who was spectating me and watched me die because of my XL I figured I'd come down here for the first time and ask:

Is my increased damage output an okay trade-off for being easier to kill?

if someone gives you verbal abuse for anything in MWO you can report him/her.

if you are happy with the durability tradeoff and if it usualy pays off in terms of higher damage output I would say it is worth it.

I personally would not take an XL in the KGC because it can keep fighting with half the Mech gone and still have the firepower of some medium Mechs, however if I could use a Clan XL or ^{(not yet in game)} Light Fusion engine which can survive loosing 1 side torso I most certainly would

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 09 February 2016 - 02:13 AM.

[Exard3k]

In the end all that matters is how the mech performs for you. Do you have more fun playing it with an XL? Is it too frustrating to get killed when your side torso is destroyed?

Play a bit with XL, switch back to standard, compare. Maybe you are just more familiar with the King Crab or MWO itself.

Try out things, fail at them, and learn...and always have fun playing MWO

Edited by Exard3k, 09 February 2016 - 01:16 AM.

[Koniving]

MyriadDigits, on 08 February 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

...for a King Crab. Now despite before buying having asked around in the chat, and being told it wasn't worth it, I did it anyway. This was entirely because I didn't see the point in trying to build for a zombie mech when getting to that point was rare for me to begin with, and when it did happen I was nothing more than a meat shield.

Now, I've been under the belief going from 200-500 damage on a quick match to 300-700 damage was a notable improvement, even if it comes at the cost of someone getting close a wrecking a side torso to kill me. However after getting yelled at by a talker who was spectating me and watched me die because of my XL I figured I'd come down here for the first time and ask:

Is my increased damage output an okay trade-off for being easier to kill?

Don't take the tears of a spectator too seriously.

"XL engine, not a good idea" is one thing. "OMFG are you stupid?!" is something to ignore.

Your increased damage output is noteworthy. The real question is do you have a worthy amount of speed for the XL engine? If it was done to simply carry heavier weapons, it may not have been worthwhile, but if you're noticeably faster as well that is an entirely different story.

Back in the day, a "Fast Atlas" was terrifying since high alphas weren't all that possible and damage was hard to accurately place before lag compensation (Host State Rewind). Hate to imagine a fast King Crab armed to the teeth.

Truth be told how "Screwed" or not you are with an XL engine really depends on the level and where you are. Stay out of open fields and you won't have any trouble with the XL engine... go into an open field and you're basically planting your own tombstone with the shovel on the ground and the hole already done.

[Rhavin]

Play what you want, but play it well and no one should complain. If you die to side torso loss but have buried 3 or 4 of the enemy with KMDs you carried regardless of what your PUG or solo Q team thinks.

100 to 200 damage increase is worth it IMHO, not sure of your tier but at lowe tiers new players are still figuring out their loadouts and not doing the math in their heads to determine their enemy's loadouts. That will keep you safer for a while.

I do love what Koniving said about spectators tears...lol, that's too right.

[Digital_Angel]

People give me grief as well for running one of my KGC builds as a long range support mech (3ERLL, 2LRM15+Artemis, loads of ammo and a std 330 engine). It is still fun to take out now and then, and actually gives me solid match performance on a regular basis. Since it is not meant to up close and personal (although light rushes sometimes force it to be), it is the 1 KGC I have that I would consider a XL engine in, but again that is personal preference.

I will agree with the previous post that my KGCs usually die to CT damage before losing a lose side torsos 70% of the time. This is a combination of the hit boxes on the mech and that most people expect assaults to have STD engines and so focus on the CT anyway.

If you enjoy your build and are having fun, then you know what, just ignore them or Block/Report them if they get really nasty or abusive in chat.

[Dan Nashe]

Raven with an ac20.
Terrible idea.
But I don't complain when I see one in quickplay. CW is iffier. Not okay in a goup unless they are okay with it.

So I may be too open minded.
But it boils down to absolutely fine in quickplay matches, because they are just about having fun and builds rarely decide quickplay matches because they're such a crapshoot and you can do well in anything.

Just be aware of WHY they're not advised and understand the choice: XLs not recommended because good players can kill you much quicker, you can't run away, and assaults "role" (especially the KC) is to get in the enemy's face.

Another key is that to win, ideally everyone on your team takes some damage rather than some people taking all of it- so with an XL assault you might lose a Warhammer because you weren't standing next to him to absorb fire because you knew you were more fragile.

Of course, if the XL let's you kill people faster, that's less damage your team takes too. Especially if you do it *early* in the match.

I will say I see a lot of bad players get good stats (whenever you spectate a guy who can't aim but gets good stats in a game you lose because he was undamaged at the end of the game fighting only weakened enemies) because they hide in the back sniping, and then the enemy gets a 10-2 kill lead, and then the guy gets 4 kills against weakened enemies after the game is already lost when they would have been more useful standing on the line, getting 2 kills then dying, and having the game start 6 to 6.

At the same time, if the XL support mech kills 2 enemies in the poke and snipe phase of pug games, giving your team an early 2-0 lead, then hides, they helped a lot, and maybe they needed the XL to have the alpha/range to pull it off.

Also having a million armor is useless if the pugs in the heavies all die before you can catch up to them.

Just don'don't run standard heat sinks. That is stupid. Because math.kI think there's like one exception in all of mwo history, probably the ac20 raven).

[Leone]

Dan Nashe, on 10 February 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Just don'don't run standard heat sinks. That is stupid. Because math.kI think there's like one exception in all of mwo history, probably the ac20 raven).

Actually, you can make quite a few decent builds with single heat sinks. Ac5s tend to be cool enough, machine guns are heat neutral, and a gauss mech can be surrounded by flamer mechs an not hafta worry. Out side of that you start getting into a weird, not enough space to tonnage trade off, where some builds can load up on singles like you couldn't do with doubles. Mostly hasta take short range weaponry though, an I'm not sure it it's actually better, or just not bad enough. Still needs more testing before I can give a verdict on those builds.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 10 February 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[Dan Nashe]

Raven with an ac20.
Terrible idea.
But I don't complain when I see one in quickplay. CW is iffier. Not okay in a goup unless they are okay with it.

So I may be too open minded.
But it boils down to absolutely fine in quickplay matches, because they are just about having fun and builds rarely decide quickplay matches because they're such a crapshoot and you can do well in anything.

Just be aware of WHY they're not advised and understand the choice: XLs not recommended because good players can kill you much quicker, you can't run away, and assaults "role" (especially the KC) is to get in the enemy's face.

Another key is that to win, ideally everyone on your team takes some damage rather than some people taking all of it- so with an XL assault you might lose a Warhammer because you weren't standing next to him to absorb fire because you knew you were more fragile.

Of course, if the XL let's you kill people faster, that's less damage your team takes too. Especially if you do it *early* in the match.

I will say I see a lot of bad players get good stats (whenever you spectate a guy who can't aim but gets good stats in a game you lose because he was undamaged at the end of the game fighting only weakened enemies) because they hide in the back sniping, and then the enemy gets a 10-2 kill lead, and then the guy gets 4 kills against weakened enemies after the game is already lost when they would have been more useful standing on the line, getting 2 kills then dying, and having the game start 6 to 6.

At the same time, if the XL support mech kills 2 enemies in the poke and snipe phase of pug games, giving your team an early 2-0 lead, then hides, they helped a lot, and maybe they needed the XL to have the alpha/range to pull it off.

Also having a million armor is useless if the pugs in the heavies all die before you can catch up to them.

Just don'don't run standard heat sinks. That is stupid. Because math. Except I think there's like one exception in all of mwo history, probably the ac20 raven). (To save crit space).

[loopala]

IraqiWalker, on 08 February 2016 - 05:08 PM, said:

I have an XL 340 in one of them. I think I might be the only guy in the entire MWO population with an XL 340,

nope everybody with a CDA-2A C has an XL340. heck i run it in a VTR 9K with a guass. actually not a bad engine in fatties...

Back to the OP

been hearing the "no xl in assaults" for as long as i have been here. an xl assault is not a DOA mech it is just a different play style then the tanker mentality. as you play more you will find many of the axioms used here are not always true. there are exceptions. the number 1 exception is "Are you having fun?" answer yes, then you can do as you please.
the fun of a fast crab is when that light comes in expecting a quick kill on a slow fatty that can turn tail and BOOM out goes the light...

[IraqiWalker]

loopala, on 10 February 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

the fun of a fast crab is when that light comes in expecting a quick kill on a slow fatty that can turn tail and BOOM out goes the light...

Happened to me in my 2 x AC 20KGC. Poor Firestarter never knew saw it coming.

[Pskonejott]

Here's the thing, at certain levels of play there are some things you should never do, but in quick play it can be almost the opposite. Quick play requires mobility, twisting and all of that is nice, but the real benefit is not getting left behind every other match. With an XL in a king crab in quick play you can get to where you need to and probably in the long run survive longer, do more damage, in many cases probably even soak more damage from the front line because you are actually at the front line, and overall perform much better.

Last night, had a guy on voice comms trying to organize the team. If the team had of listened it would of worked, but the team didn't listen and he died alone both games. His point of view is of course is that everyone else is a "******", but in reality he doesn't understand the tempo and behavior of quick match games. It's great to put forth a plan and try and lead a team like that, but to refuse to acknowledge the position of both teams and how they're currently moving, and getting killed to prove a point is the mark of a horrid quick play player. This is the sort of player that will have a go at you for running XL in a king crab, just shrug it off and queue again

[MyriadDigits]

Thank you for all the replies.

Now having played a few more matches it is most definitely an improvement. In quick battle, no one ever seems to aim for the side torsos (at least for now) which has made my deaths because of the XL probably 1/5 of my deaths. However my KGC hasn't lost the ability to stand off 3-1 in their favor and still walk away from it.