23 replies to this topic

[JPicasso]

So I'm looking at my first mech purchase. I've always had a soft spot for the Dragon mech, even if I was terrible piloting them on the boardgame.

Comparing the Dragon vs a Thunderbolt, the Thunderbolt looks way more versitile, with many more hardpoints and nice and high mounted weapons.
But the Dragon speed and quirks (even if they were nerfed a while back?) seem to make it viable, but there's a lot of hate for the Dragons. Dragons seem suited for fire support, I really wish they could carry ECM, no?

Is there a sane argument for Dragon over the Thunderbolt?

[juxstapo]

DISCLAIMER: Do what you want. Enjoy the game the way you like it. If the Dragon is your favorite chassis, don't let any of us dissuade you.

But since you asked for advice, in this game; all else being equal; the Thud will eat the Dragon's face.

For the Thunderbolt (my quick and dirty list, someone more knowledgeable and skilled than I will be along presently)
PROS:

• Tanky as crap, nearly equal side torso to center torso ratio allows you to spread damage across components much better and therefore live substantially longer.
  
• As you said, more hardpoints in better places.
  
• All good builds want standard engines, therefore the Thud is much cheaper to set up.
  
• Generally speaking, within the same weight class more tonnage is better; (vast oversimplification, but still)

CONS:

• It'll almost always be slower than a Dragon, the degree to which this is a con is relative because even high-engined Dragons tend to lean more towards "quick" than "fast", and

You know what? I apologize... I just reread your question and realize I'm blabbering on to show off my limited knowledge more than I'm actually being helpful.
To direction answer your actual question; No... there is not. The Dragon will carry less firepower, be far more fragile, is harder to use; and costs more to set up.
But drive Dragons if you want, it'll be somewhat hard-mode, but that'll just make you a better Dragon pilot... you'd probably enjoy yourself more in a Thunderbolt however.

[TooDumbToQuit]

lol, I'm learning the hard way but enjoying it. I've read the books for many years and I also have Mech that are simply favorites.

It is like playing Madden NFL. Some people are true fans and they always play their team and some people are ****** and simply want the best team.

[Spheroid]

The Thunderbolt is way better with more build options. You can run Dragonlike builds on mediums so there is really no point getting one.

As a new player you will find the T-bolt's natural tankiness extremely useful.

Edited by Spheroid, 28 April 2016 - 07:48 PM.

[Koniving]

JPicasso, on 28 April 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:

So I'm looking at my first mech purchase. I've always had a soft spot for the Dragon mech, even if I was terrible piloting them on the boardgame.

Comparing the Dragon vs a Thunderbolt, the Thunderbolt looks way more versitile, with many more hardpoints and nice and high mounted weapons.
But the Dragon speed and quirks (even if they were nerfed a while back?) seem to make it viable, but there's a lot of hate for the Dragons. Dragons seem suited for fire support, I really wish they could carry ECM, no?

Is there a sane argument for Dragon over the Thunderbolt?

To answer the real question:
Yes.

I ask you to read this quote.

Quote

Koniving, on 06 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said: (Info placed here because thread is locked in an archive).

Here's what I'll tell you from my experience on the learning curve for dragon 'Mechs.

They are not brawlers. If they brawl, they will always lose. Their strengths are speed and concentration of arm-mounted weaponry. The ideal dragon fights in hit and runs, like the classic Jenner from pre-ECM days. You move in, you hit, you move out.

The only exception is when the enemy is exhibiting tunnel vision -- that is when the enemy focuses entirely on one target to the exclusion of anything else with the sole intent of killing that one target. In that case, you get your dragon behind that enemy, hammer everything into their back until you get a reaction and then you stay behind it.

You are a Dragon. A glorified, heavy weight, highly armored monstrosity that is confused about his weight class and pretending to be a light 'Mech.

You are the anti-light.

You are anti-medium.

You will not snipe the heavies.

You will not brawl the assaults.

You are not on the front line.

You are not at the rear guard.

You are coming from the side.

You are the clean-up crew.

You are the hero that saves a swarmed assault.

You exist to hear "Thnks 4 the help."

You are neither the sword nor the shield.

You are the hidden dagger concealed in a swordsman's boot.

You are the cheap shot.

You are the killing blow.

And if you bring any other mentality while in the Dragon, then you are the rusted pile of junk left in the snow of Frozen City.

Thunderbolts are solid brawlers.
Dragons are kill thieves. They are "Heavy" scouts, and contrary to popular belief they can tank and they can deliver some solid punishment. Even so, they "Suck."

Dragons "Suck" and are "terrible mechs" provided you lack one of the most important skills in Mechwarrior Online -- the use of your arms.

Dragons excel when using their arms as it vastly increases the range of combat it can participate in. Turning the torso is 'risky' and unnecessary. Instead, turn your arms and shoot things. The arm range is utterly ridiculous to the point that it's just ******* awesome! Furthermore Dragons are quirked for utterly insane firing rates, which is good because they can't carry many weapons.

Some Dragon use.
Oldschool.

Heavily tanky.

Trial. (Fantastic demonstration of arm use here!)


And that's before quirks. So take a moment and imagine them with quirks.

In summary:
Dragons are excellent mechs for pilots with advanced mastery of the game's mechanics and "Secondary" (o) crosshair.
It is considered awful by those who mainly use the "Primary" (+) crosshair, as all of the great benefits of the Dragon are inaccessible to them.

(Turn off Armlock and use Left CTRL to take control of the arms or allow the aim to drift past torso twist range, both tricks work well).

[Chillicon]

Koniving, on 28 April 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

To answer the real question:
Yes.

I ask you to read this quote.


Thunderbolts are solid brawlers.
Dragons are kill thieves. They are "Heavy" scouts, and contrary to popular belief they can tank and they can deliver some solid punishment. Even so, they "Suck."

Dragons "Suck" and are "terrible mechs" provided you lack one of the most important skills in Mechwarrior Online -- the use of your arms.

Dragons excel when using their arms as it vastly increases the range of combat it can participate in. Turning the torso is 'risky' and unnecessary. Instead, turn your arms and shoot things. The arm range is utterly ridiculous to the point that it's just ******* awesome! Furthermore Dragons are quirked for utterly insane firing rates, which is good because they can't carry many weapons.

Some Dragon use.
Oldschool.

Heavily tanky.

Trial. (Fantastic demonstration of arm use here!)


And that's before quirks. So take a moment and imagine them with quirks.

In summary:
Dragons are excellent mechs for pilots with advanced mastery of the game's mechanics and "Secondary" (o) crosshair.
It is considered awful by those who mainly use the "Primary" (+) crosshair, as all of the great benefits of the Dragon are inaccessible to them.

(Turn off Armlock and use Left CTRL to take control of the arms or allow the aim to drift past torso twist range, both tricks work well).

OK you want to choose your FIRST Mech? Bettler not take the Dragon, take your time mastering the basics and after that get ur Dragon!

[Koniving]

All this said.

A Thunderbolt is better both when considering you are a newer player and due to versatility. What I've got is another three videos (this time in a spoiler).

Spoiler

Thunderbolt pair with MakeMeHappy. Good arm use.

Thunderbolt pair with MakeMeHappy. More ranged combat in the first part, and urban combat in the second.

And finally Thunderbolt pair with Lordred. Great example of tankiness.

Chillicon, on 28 April 2016 - 10:22 PM, said:

OK you want to choose your FIRST Mech? Bettler not take the Dragon, take your time mastering the basics and after that get ur Dragon!

Good shorthand of the message. Dragons are fantastic... once you know more than the average player about advanced controls. Til then of the two choices, go for the Thunderbolt.

(Which Thunderbolts have good arm weapons and arm-range too and as such can be used to learn the tricks that are useful for Dragons!)

Edited by Koniving, 28 April 2016 - 10:25 PM.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Dragon = no.
Just plain no

[Ruslan Savelyev]

I mastered the Dragon early in my MWO career and regret it. The Shadowhawk feels better in every way with very similar weapon loadouts.

TDR is just a really solid 'Mech that will deliver results with a loadout variety that should always make it fun.

Buy the Dragon when you are confident enough in your piloting to start playing around with troll builds.

[JPicasso]

Hmm, so I'm getting the consensus. I think I knew the answer as I asked it, but just checking. Even though, driving the Dragon would be like scootin around in a pickup truck, looks like there might be a better choice for me. Thanks for all the replies.

Also, wouldn't it be great if we could actually trial any mech we wanted? PGI could charge rental fees or something. As of right now, none of the trial mechs even sport autocannons. How is a new pilot supposed to make an informed decision anyway? Why, back in my day, we didn't have free games like this, no sir!

Also also, at least one of those builds in the videos isn't viable anymore, as I didn't see a Dragon variant with more than 2 Balistic hardpoints. Shame, it looked like a fun mech to play.

[StumbleBee]

JPicasso, on 29 April 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

Also, wouldn't it be great if we could actually trial any mech we wanted? PGI could charge rental fees or something. As of right now, none of the trial mechs even sport autocannons. How is a new pilot supposed to make an informed decision anyway? Why, back in my day, we didn't have free games like this, no sir!

More variety and more regular turnover would be nice to have, at least. Having to buy a mech just to get a sense of how autocannon (or streaks, or flamers, etc.) work seems unfair

[EmperorMyrf]

I love the dragon mechs, you can certainly make them work.

The big issue would be that they need a fairly large amount of cbills in order to get them usable, mostly due to the larger XL engines. And while most XL-friendly mechs have decent builds to use while you save up for your bigger engine, the dragon does not.

So while I encourage you to at some point get a dragon, I'd suggest you don't do it until you've got a full drop deck.

[JC Daxion]

Dragons, typically your main weapon is in your right arm, a Gauss, Dual AC5's, AC-10, ect.. the other side typically runs Large lasers or ER large. Popular dragon combos are dual AC5's with a pair of ML's or a gauss with a pair of ERLL's, I also run a fang with ac10+ dual LPL's

Dragons are excellent longer range mechs, that flank very well, and can re position. They are basically fat mediums, that can run about as fast as any top medium, aka 100KPH+

they will teach you to twist, and protect your main weapon arm as well. BUT they really need a big XL- like an XL-280 or 300 to shine. I learned in dragons, and played my first 100 matches in a trail with the gauss+2ERLL build.. and i was hooked on the game.

Boils down to harder to play, but very rewarding, but the down side is they can die easily because of XL, and if you loose your right arm, there goes most of your firepower in many cases.. (though the fang, its loosing the left)



Thunderbolts..

Tankier, can do well with STD engine builds, so that makes them a good amount cheaper, as that XL engine will cost ya around 5m i think.

TDR's also can run a wider range of weapons, and load outs, so you can build bralwer builds, sniper builds, and even missile builds to some extent.

They are just solid all around mechs, that play well at any level.



So as a new player, starting out, i would lean towards playing the more flexible mech, that can last longer, even if you screw up.. I'd say buy 3 TDR's and save that dragon for your next set of heavies after you learn the game.. I think you will end up having a better time..


but as for me, i am very glad i learned on a Dragon..


Dragon 1N is my top performing mech, though i only have about 100 matches in it but it is a total beast, the dual AC5's just wreck things, and the speed lets you do it from places that people don't think you can get to as quick as you can.. See a brawl starting, or someone sniping, you can easily move to a flank position and take down the enemy in seconds with it's extreme DPS.

the dragon 5N is a great sniper, playing much like the 1N, but this mech runs cool, so hot maps it can shine, especially open maps.

The fang (hero), i find it an average mech, while fun.. it is just not a great performer, though i think with more time i could do better in it. It's also the first mech i ever used large pulse lasers in, so that could be part of it, getting used to a new weapon system. IT also runs pretty hot.


TDR5SS is my second, but i have about 250 so more time to have bad matches and drop my total scores. the other TDR's i just don't seam to do as well in, but again that can be because of just lack of time in the pilots seat. But to me they are very solid mechs, and i hope they get shrunk a little in the resize coming in june..

Edited by JC Daxion, 29 April 2016 - 06:11 AM.

[Koniving]

JPicasso, on 29 April 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

Also, wouldn't it be great if we could actually trial any mech we wanted? PGI could charge rental fees or something. As of right now, none of the trial mechs even sport autocannons. How is a new pilot supposed to make an informed decision anyway? Why, back in my day, we didn't have free games like this, no sir!

Also also, at least one of those builds in the videos isn't viable anymore, as I didn't see a Dragon variant with more than 2 Balistic hardpoints. Shame, it looked like a fun mech to play.

Yes it would, it was among my many early suggestions. (Used to be only 4 mechs at once, then 12 total, now it's supposed to be 12 per side but not sure; owning 190 mechs now I haven't looked at trials in about 6 months).

Also:
DRG-5N. It's the first of the Dragon videos.
Actually it's all three dragon videos (but last one is the Dragon trial).
Listen to that triple shot burst of AC/2s. 2, 2, 2. (Like an AC/6 in burst fire form, delivering damage two times faster than the AC/5 so by the time the AC/5 can do 10 damage, I've delivered 18).

Three ballistics right arm and best overall ballistic quirks, plus 2 energy in the left arm. It is the pinnacle of "Arm" fighters.

[JPicasso]

Thanks for all the feedback. I almost made a mistake, and meta'd my way into a mech I wouldn't probably like. Daka-Dragon it is! I'm just a casual player, so driving this truck over the battlefield seemed like most fun. Thunderbolt if this doesn't work out.

[Koniving]

I love you man, I love you!

If you need any help on the Dragon, let me know. Between myself and another Dragon specialist of Zhizhu Mercs we can certainly help you with any issues you come across.

For now, remember these important things.

• Never advance in a straight line at the enemy. Move at an angle.
  
• Never run away. Back up if it is quick. If it isn't or you're not good at using the minimap.. then you should strafe, encircle, and make that circle bigger until you can get behind something, then bolt away!
  
• Unless the target is impossible to hit, go for legs. This way if the fight goes south, they won't be able to chase you.
  
• It's hard to circle a Dragon due to that amazing arm range. Great, isn't it? Just remember to keep the left arm fire and right arm fire separate in case if you try to 'cover-snipe'.
  
• If for some reason you are being circled, remember this: Turning is harder at full speed, if you're being circled by a faster enemy and you're not in major danger (i.e. it is one threat), jam on the brakes, go in 1/2 reverse speed and turn in the opposite direction. It works every time,
  
• Dragons in MWO have always been known for being incredible brawlers.... back in the age of brawling. They still are. A large part of this is actually for the same reason they are hated; fat bellies. At a range of 60 meters and below, most mechs can't concentrate their fire on a specific body part to a perfect pinpoint. Most mechs can use this to great effect at 20 meters. A Dragon can use it as early as 60 meters, provided the torso is at an offshoot angle [say 45 degrees] from the attacker's aiming point. It really screws with enemy convergence! The Dragon's convergence is unaffected until 40 meters, and even then you simply switch to one arm shooting, adjust and shoot the other arm, repeat. Most enemies can't do this.
  
• In a ram (glitch) contest, the Dragon always teleports through the enemy mech after no more than 2 seconds. Just a thought in case if you need to escape.
  
• Everybody shoots the Dragon's torso or the right arm. Keep a left arm in mind, and don't let the fact that everybody shoots the torso get you too comfortable with skimping on the legs. Now head armor... skimp away. Just leave one or two points just in case.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

If you want a dakka IS heavy consider the Jagermech, or Warhammer6R or Marauder3R.
All ostensibly better than the dragon.

[Wedge Red Leader]

FWIW, a dragon was my first mech. Even with all the quirks it just doesn't do well at anything. From what I have seen, it was good back in the days when there were like 10 mechs. hehe

[Clydewinder]

Dragons are great but they are not easy mode.

[Satan n stuff]

The Dragon has some firing point advantages that can occasionally be useful, but on the whole the Thunderbolt is the better mech.

To go into specifics, the Dragon is one of the very few mechs that can fire from nearly all it's fire points ( all except missiles usually ) while hiding most of the mech behind cover, but this generally only works in very specific spots. It doesn't corner poke very well unless you can actually see over your cover because it's arms are so big that they swing outward significantly when you try to twist away, though torso twisting might not be necessary depending on it's engine size. It can hill hump more safely than the Thunderbolt, but can generally only do it with one or two weapons whereas at least half the Thunderbolt variants can do it with nearly all of them. The Dragon also has very low slung arms so it doesn't work that well on uneven terrain. On the upside, the Dragon's front profile is significantly smaller than that of the Thunderbolt, but even with the upgraded hitboxes it's center torso will still take most of the hits so you can't actually take a lot of fire either way.

Wedge Red Leader, on 30 April 2016 - 08:43 PM, said:

FWIW, a dragon was my first mech. Even with all the quirks it just doesn't do well at anything. From what I have seen, it was good back in the days when there were like 10 mechs. hehe

It was actually the worst heavy from it's introduction all the way up to the first quirkening, what was "good" about it back then was that it's physics mass was too high making it easier to knock mechs down with it, this was fixed long before knockdown itself got removed.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 01 May 2016 - 02:48 AM.