50 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Intrepid, on 30 April 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

You know perfectly well what is being said. Continuing to obfuscate this issue is incredibly disingenuous.

I felt the need to try a different angle for this argument when the previous one wasn't working. I thought up a better way to present it, so I went with it.

Intrepid, on 30 April 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

Nevertheless in Lore, there are multiple examples of customized base chassis Omnimechs that have remained Omnimechs.

Such as?

Most of the hero variants of Omnimechs are still using the same base chassis, as far as I can see on Sarna at least.

The Vlad Executioner that got mentioned earlier doesn't even have a clear list of design specs. For example, it claims to use three "Large" lasers. Does it mean the Clan equivalent, or just IS Larges? I remember that somebody calculated his build as carrying around 42 tons of weaponry or so. Compare that to the default 26.5 tons of the normal Executioner. That is ridiculously broken, and can only be explained as an author who didn't know anything about the Executioner mech.

Intrepid, on 30 April 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

Given that MWO does not follow the BT rules and that PGI (gives lip service to) loving the lore, it is entirely possible & appropriate that they consider a Hero Omni with a different sized (fixed) Engine.

This kind of sheer difference is not the kind of thing PGI would do. They like their normalization. Expecting a different engine Omni hero is like expecting an Inner Sphere hero Atlas to use Omnipods. Plus, Russ has already taken a hard stance on Omni rules, fearing that people would "keep asking for more and more." All in all, they ain't gonna do it.

From a gameplay standpoint, it doesn't even add that much to gameplay. Sometimes there are rule change suggestions like Endo-Steel for Omnimechs like the Summoner, and in cases like those there is an argument to be made for balancing bad mechs. There are other rule change ideas like making Ferro not inferior to Endo, helping STD engines compete with XL, making sub-250 engines not suck, etc. In this specific situation, however, there isn't a gameplay imperative to make one specific variant of the Night Gyr stronger than usual.

People have for years feared the Night Gyr as being the replacement of the Timber Wolf that outperforms it. In this case it's even worse because the suggestion is not even all Night Gyrs, it's just one single premium variant while the rest remain as-is. That would be like asking for a hero Summoner that uses Endo-Steel, but without giving Endo-Steel to the C-Bill Summoners.

Edited by FupDup, 30 April 2016 - 07:45 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

...
Head: Nearly all of them have a head laser, so the hero doesn't need to have another head energy. Ballistic would be useless since it could only be an MG. I'll suggest a missile here, which could be used in conjuction with other missile pods to boat small missile launchers.

CT: We already have a laser CT variant so I'll avoid that. Ballistic could only be used on a UAC/2, so that's a no-go. To copy the head, I'll suggest 1-2 missile hardpoints here.

Side Torsos: These are hard to figure out since every weapon type is already covered. I don't want to give doubles of any weapon type, either. I'd avoid giving ECM to a mech that has the potential that this one has, and I'm not sure if something crazy like 2-3 AMS would be worth it. Maybe just shove a ballistic in each side or something, I dunno.

Arms: These also cover all weapon types. However, as far as I know they lack lower arm actuators. Thus, I will suggest 1 energy hardpoint and LAA enabled for both arms. You get to have better arm flex in exchange for only 1 hardpoint each.

Stock build: Probably 2 UAC/10 or 2 UAC/5, along with several (S)SRM4. Arm lasers will be something like MPL I guess.

The arm flexing and small-missile boating would probably make this variant most used for brawling, such as using several stacked SRM4 (or even SSRM4) and some energy backups along with them. The free variants will be better for direct fire, particularly at longer ranges.

Yeah, that config makes the most sense to avoid making the Hero as a must have and further strengthening the Gyr. And we couldn't do anything to make the Hero interesting because of A, B, C, D omnipods and the Omni system. It's a loss-loss situation :/

Perhaps make the Hero at least have the Hellsinger's unique "heat normalisation" quirk as Xhaleon suggested to simulate the Laser DHS:

Xhaleon, on 29 April 2016 - 09:34 PM, said:

Theorycrafting: PGI better not screw up with the gameplay effects of the laser heat sinks because it is the easiest "new" thing they could possibly add to the game. The Hellslinger already has the quirk to emulate the effect; they just need to turn it up all the way to 100%.

And glowing in the dark wouldn't necessarily be bad if it turns the mech into a giant blur on thermals and maybe night vision.

At least it would be cool without making it having relatively better omnipods!

[CK16]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 April 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

Wait which one are you talking about? The green and yellow one with the bird?

Yes, that one is not a hero I feel, the Orange trimmed one is the Hero. The other seems to be the special Skin, based off Jade Falcons Turkina Keshik

Quote

The Turkina Keshik colors its 'Mechs turquoise green with lime green highlights. A gold pearl glaze is then applied, changing the green aspect in varied lighting. Wanting their enemy to know exactly whom they are fighting, all MechWarriors adorn their machines with large falcon murals. Camo (usually shades of green) is used only on the orders of the Khan.

[Hit the Deck]

CK16, on 01 May 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Yes, that one is not a hero I feel, the Orange trimmed one is the Hero. The other seems to be the special Skin, based off Jade Falcons Turkina Keshik

The one with a bird on its chest is the hero because the address says so. Just look it up.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeah I'm pretty sure that is the hero... we will see this week though.

[Intrepid]

FupDup, on 30 April 2016 - 07:39 PM, said:

The Vlad Executioner that got mentioned earlier doesn't even have a clear list of design specs. For example, it claims to use three "Large" lasers. Does it mean the Clan equivalent, or just IS Larges? I remember that somebody calculated his build as carrying around 42 tons of weaponry or so. Compare that to the default 26.5 tons of the normal Executioner. That is ridiculously broken, and can only be explained as an author who didn't know anything about the Executioner mech.

Michael Stackpole wrote the novel and he certainly knows more about Battletech than you do

You 'remember' incorrectly: Vlad's EXE only carried 2 Larges and the total weight is 36 tons. Clans do not run IS weapons

Quote

This kind of sheer difference is not the kind of thing PGI would do. They like their normalization. Expecting a different engine Omni hero is like expecting an Inner Sphere hero Atlas to use Omnipods. Plus, Russ has already taken a hard stance on Omni rules, fearing that people would "keep asking for more and more." All in all, they ain't gonna do it.

One only has to look at all the current Heroes to know this is utterly false. There are numerous Heroes that have different engine caps and/or unique weapon hardpoints. Hardly a resounding example of normalization. Russ's comments on Omni changes were in response to 'upgrading' underperforming chassis - nothing at all to do with Omni Heroes.

Quote

From a gameplay standpoint, it doesn't even add that much to gameplay. There isn't a gameplay imperative to make one specific variant of the Night Gyr stronger than usual.

No Hero mech adds much to gameplay; indeed not many mechs do period. There is no basis for your speculation that a different engine Hero would be any stronger. It is equally likely it could be worse. Most likely its usefulness would ebb & flow with the changing meta.

Quote

People have for years feared the Night Gyr as being the replacement of the Timber Wolf that outperforms it. In this case it's even worse because the suggestion is not even all Night Gyrs, it's just one single premium variant while the rest remain as-is. That would be like asking for a hero Summoner that uses Endo-Steel, but without giving Endo-Steel to the C-Bill Summoners.

You should just change your name to straight up FuD - since all you are doing is spreading unsubstantiated fear uncertainty and doubt

What you are shoveling is so thin you have to pump it.

[Karl Streiger]

Intrepid, on 01 May 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

Michael Stackpole wrote the novel and he certainly knows more about Battletech than you do

You 'remember' incorrectly: Vlad's EXE only carried 2 Larges and the total weight is 36 tons. Clans do not run IS weapons

the executioner UK was made just to fit the description of the novel
2 Gauss + 4t ammo
2 ER-Large Laser
4 Medium Pulse Laser

Anyhow it was not cannon - and afaik the "official version" is just armed with two gauss rifles (not very good either)
Although the Mk -1 Omni Execution would have been able to carry two Gauss and two ER-Large Laser

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2016 - 04:24 AM.

[RAM]

It was a sad day when MechForce lost its canonicity

Blood Legacy's description lists only regular lasers (ie non-Pulse); however, it should be remembered that in 1989 Omnis did not have the same rules they do now. While probably a good thing for game balance the MkI Omnis did not come to pass, it relegates many of the invasion Omnis to inferior status.

Finally it is worth mentioning that given PGI has already modified some Omnis from their Base Configs, it is not unreasonable to consider that they might do it again under special circumstances.


RAM
ELH

[Karl Streiger]

RAM, on 02 May 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

Finally it is worth mentioning that given PGI has already modified some Omnis from their Base Configs, it is not unreasonable to consider that they might do it again under special circumstances.

Buying a Gold Mech should be enough to "enable" the unique MK1 - mode.
(I didn't have one - but i wished those mechs would have been given something that is really unique)

(for example Nova Prime: as fast as the StormCrow, no fixed JJs and 19t Pod Space)

Anyhow: BT
to be worth the Hero may need two E-Slots in CT and (while i don't know how Hero Modules would be handled) some more missile HPs- STs or arms

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 May 2016 - 11:03 PM.

[RAM]

Karl Streiger, on 02 May 2016 - 11:01 PM, said:

Buying a Gold Mech should be enough to "enable" the unique MK1 - mode.
(I didn't have one - but i wished those mechs would have been given something that is really unique)

Unfortunately there are not MkI versions for all the Omnis - too bad!

Back in the day I did suggest that Gold Mechs receive additional benefit: +50% CBills; +30% XP & CB; anything but just another (I) mech...

Hero Omnis really do need something special other than unique CT HP & Quirks. A non-standard engine, structure, armour or perhaps even an additional 'locked pod' would achieve that.


RAM
ELH

[Gas Guzzler]

Interesting.

mwomercs.com now knows "Night" and "Gyr" are two separate words.

If you type in mwomercs.com/nightgyr you get the HPG not found, but it changes the URL to night-gyr.

I thought that was interesting... didn't do that this morning.