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#21 ScarecrowES

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 12:24 AM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 30 April 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

edit: oh wait, he talked about financiary success! oh yea, I believe him: mw3 and mw4 were so much cheaper :D
Bought 4 mechs mw4 expansion pack for 5 dollars....


More unique players have played MWO than any previous MW title. Not to say many of the players that tried it stuck with it... that's a different issue. But yeah, by the numbers MWO is very successful for such a nice title.

#22 Amsro

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 12:38 AM

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#23 STEF_

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 12:40 AM

View PostScarecrowES, on 30 April 2016 - 12:24 AM, said:

More unique players have played MWO than any previous MW title. Not to say many of the players that tried it stuck with it... that's a different issue. But yeah, by the numbers MWO is very successful for such a nice title.

Nope..... in mw4 and mw3 too numbers were higher
(I repeat: after 4 years of mw3, there were one planet warfare (like cw), with hundres of players going on and 2 world leagues running)

#24 Y E O N N E

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 12:40 AM

View PostScarecrowES, on 29 April 2016 - 11:30 PM, said:


Mediocre. If PGI intended for you to use MGs, they'd have given you light infantry to shoot at.


Obtuse.

If PGI intended for us to use MGs, they'd have put them in the game.

Wait a minute...

#25 Black Ivan

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 12:40 AM

There have been so much better ideas for CW and QP from fans than anybody from PGI. So he should better be quiet.

#26 Paigan

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 12:58 AM

View PostAlaric Hasek, on 29 April 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

Russ finally said it: the player base needs to stop thinking that it knows better than PGI how to develop this game. They don't. If you _can_, let me know when you finish your perfect game and I'll come play it. Until then, put up or shut up.

To be fair, one CAN very well know better the one detail or another without having to develop a complete product just to proof it. That is a very stupid demand (no offense, talking in general).

On the other hand, it's true that customers/players fixate too much on one detail from their personal point of view and usually don't have enough overview over all details to make better decisions in the grand scheme.
I saw a tech talk of the google CIO (former, IDK) who said: "Never do what your customers say. They have no idea how to make it right. They can point to problems and then it's your job to find the best overall solution."

Google can't be that wrong, judging from how they are doing.
And I can confirm that from my own work.

#27 Thorqemada

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 02:10 AM

The most things PGI did right were at the beginning of the development - the core combat game is quite fun with the right Mechs on the right Maps in the right Numbers.
Since then they added Mechs and stuff and broke more than fixed and they did it with many poeple predicting so.

What Russ may say is that they very prbably have more experience with coding and stuff - probably true for the majority of the playerbase - though a whole lot of the Problems of MWO have a PGI decision making source.

I have not paid a dime since the Phoenix Pack (maybe 1 MC sale but i do not remember if it was b4 or after that) and i was 2 times close to spending Money like for the Urbanmech/Marauder-Pack as latest Occasion.
Then PGI comes out with some game "imrpovement" and i have another WTF-Moment and hold my purse closed.

I hate Map/Mode-Voting, they have stopped to improve the old maps, we got 2 very bad new maps, their Business Modell resolves around the sale of Mechs which naturally will be source drying out over time, to join CW as Freelancer is unintuitive and inconvenient having to stare at the Screen hoping some Magic Window may appear that you have to click in a short time instead of making it a Queue you can enlist too that gives you the Chance to do something with the waste waiting time.
ECM is still meh, MGs suck, Clans totally broke Balance and Long Range Weapons only have advantages and no draw backs like short range weapons have and the skill tree totally sucks.

The Skill Tree is nothing that is complicated, its mostly conmceptional work that is not done since more than 3 Years...

PGI is not in the situation to rightful put Players and their demands ashame for the games faults and flaws!

I would very much like to spend Money again for MWO but i can not justify it and my Purse is open 1 time a year at Holiday Season so it will be another year to get another chance for Money from me.

Other Players have other interests but similar is that PGI does not make decisions that justify spending for whatever reason but some Mech Sales that catch less and less attention.

Thats how i see it...

PS: I was involved into the development of a Browsergame based on the WWII Time and made the Maps and Balance and very early Beta-Tests were received very well but the Team broke up as jealousy broke out between some Team Members that felt their ideas were not valued enough.
The most bad thing to a game is in reality 2 things:
You listen to much to your Playerbase or the wrong People, dont understand their intrinsic Motivation.
You have Teammembers with "love child ideas".

I fully understand that balancing is a very hard Task - even for a mundane Browsergame i spend hundreds of Matches over the tiniest change and never was fully satisfied and at some point you have to made the hard choice that at some point some unit/weapon/etc is no longer feasible.

And understand your Players and put their demands in relation to their intrinsic motivation but allways keep control over the games direction - in the end Players vote with their Wallet and not their Mouth.

Edited by Thorqemada, 30 April 2016 - 03:11 AM.


#28 Appogee

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 02:46 AM

Well, if we're having a "straight talk" moment about PGI and its customers...

If MWO is the most successful MechWarrior title, it's in spite of PGI's mishandling of the licence, and due to the customers' goodwill, and love/hope for the future of the franchise.

If PGI were the masters of independent coding they now claim to be on the back of MWO's "success" why did their first post-MWO offering, Transverse, fail to reach even 1% of its funding target...?

PGI needs to understand it's own position. The reason they are successful as a studio, and not relegated to making Trophy Bass 3 clones, is because they became the only way we customers can keep playing MechWarrior.

So: more gratitude and less attitude, plox.






PS: Incidentally, the population of the planet has grown by a billion (17%) since Mechwarrior 4 was released.

Edited by Appogee, 30 April 2016 - 03:03 AM.


#29 Navid A1

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 02:52 AM

View PostAppogee, on 30 April 2016 - 02:46 AM, said:

Well, if we're having a "straight talk" moment about PGI and it's customer, let me share the following...

If MWO is the most successful MechWarrior title, it's in spite of PGI's mishandling of the licence, and due to the customers' goodwill, and love/hope for the future of the franchise.

Incidentally, the population of the planet has grown by a billion (17%) since Mechwarrior 4 was released.


And that is not even taking into account the number of people who play games and who have PCs capable to run said games.


Its like comparing the number of cell phone numbers from 2016 to the one from 1990; and the conclude that your mobile service provider is better than some company in the 90s.

Edited by Navid A1, 30 April 2016 - 10:45 AM.


#30 Random Carnage

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 02:56 AM

View PostScarecrowES, on 29 April 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

There was a point Russ made... though he didn't say so directly, it was implied in the tone of how some questions in the townhall were answered... that PGI has wasted a lot of time and effort chasing a target that some of the most vocal in the minority of players in MWO are setting. And that... if they could stop trying to satisfy the whims of this minority for a bit, some real positive things could get done.

It's call management. Most other businesses seem to figure this out.

Edited by Random Carnage, 30 April 2016 - 03:00 AM.


#31 MrMadguy

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 03:57 AM

Game development - isn't rocket science. I'm programmer since school, I have some experience in game development (network, graphics and physics programming, game engine structure), I have experience in game design (including 2D art, 3D modeling and creation of maps) and I have programmer university education. My diploma project was "Decision making in determined and undetermined conditions", which included things, that are very important in game development - such as using weighed additive and multiplicative criteria to determine, which decision is best.

So, I know, how to develop games. Sometimes even better, than game developers themselves. The only thing about game development, I don't have experience in - is business. I.e. trying to milk money via maximizing profit/effort ratio. So yeah. I don't know, how to be sneaky enough to be able to ignore any problems, that aren't related to earning money, and keeping business alive at the same time.

#32 Moldur

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 04:12 AM

Even if PGI isn't that great, they're better off not listening to a lot of the drivel "we" put out.

The game really hasn't gotten "better" in many ways from how it was at some other point in the balance cycle months or years ago. It has only become different, because PGI has tried to appease some player group at the cost of frustrating some other player group. The end result being zero net gain. Different people are happy, different people are pissed off, but it's the same number of people. It wouldn't be a big deal if PGI wasn't a tiny team and it didn't take 3 or 4 months for each of these same-tier changes that, in the end, do nothing.

#33 Jeffrey Wilder

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 04:33 AM

Did anybody ask about why old bugs keep coming back?

#34 adamts01

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 04:42 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 30 April 2016 - 12:05 AM, said:

Listen, I think Russ is doing a better job than 99% of his players could. Maybe even 99.99%.
A brake mechanic could kill a few customers a year and still be doing a better job than 99.99% of us customers. That doesn't really say much.

#35 Bud Crue

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 05:05 AM

That townhall depressed the hell out of me. The fact that some of you are defending Russ' attitude that the community is the problem with this game, that PGI has made MWO "the most successful MW game ever" despite the community; is even more depressing.

MWO is the only game in town for the BT and MW fan. That monopoly is the basis of PGI's success. Nothing more. To pretend that PGI and its ham fisted efforts are the reason people play this game is absurdist delusion driven by a shocking amount of blind ego.

If Russ is so sure the community could not do any beter, then he should open up the code to said community to mod and add to and put his assertion to the test. I know there are many who would gladly pay to have that opportunity. But he wont. While I am grateful that the game exists, the realization that what we have right now as far, as core game play, is really all there ever will be because the current owner of the license believes only they are capable of developing this game is truly short sighted.

#36 gregsolidus

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 05:15 AM

I can't believe he actually used that fallacy. Just...Wow. I can understand that he's mad and all, the road has been rocky and full of frothing anger, but just hand waving criticism like that, whether its valid or not, makes him look like the *******.

Edited by gregsolidus, 30 April 2016 - 05:17 AM.


#37 Rizzwind

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 05:50 AM

I've been playing since day one closed beta maybe a little before. And can list on hand everything that has pulled this game down with ease.

Issue 1. 12v12: This is the biggest issue of steam rolls. The 8v8 games at least for me always ended in a closer fight. 2v2 2v1 on the rare occasion 3v1 with most the mechs very hurt at end game. 8v8 even allowed a few good MW to be heroes for the team winning some very close 2v1s or better matches. Now I see games of 12-6 12-8 12-0 if they go really bad and a lot of still very fresh mechs at the end of match.

Issue 2. Convergence (yea yea dead horse) But if you remove convergence from everything torso mounted. pointed in a straight line out of the mech with no movable parts guess what it goes straight. It's like taping two laser pointers to the side of a chair. guess what happens the beams go straight. At no point will they ever hit the same spot at the some time. This would be your CT weapons. Now pick up a 3rd laser pointer. This would be your arm laser. now your arm moves even if the laser points in a straight line point it a non moving laser on the wall. OMG Convergence done right. Setting it this way would rise TTK. Cut down on high pin point damage. And would put the alpha strike back into the O Sh** button it was meant to be. O.o and look it would have players needing to have skill with one or to arm weapons to have most of the killing shots count. This could also open up the game to other mechs then just the 15% that most players are using right now.

3 Control of builds. The biggest thing that can always go wrong in every game. Let the player build their own crap. Every game ever to let this happen ends up with meta max builds that become the must use end game. And that's not just Mechwarrior. MMORG's like WoW have the best end game skill trees. FPS BF and CoD has the best end game weapons kit. This will always be the case if you give players to much control. IS mechs handle more like clan mechs ever did right now with everything being able to be swapped out. ( I get that a game running stock mechs is out of the question right now that boat sailed a long time ago.) But the other 2 fixes would go a long way to fixing some of the bigger balance issues.

Edited by Rizzwind, 30 April 2016 - 05:57 AM.


#38 Mister Blastman

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 05:58 AM

View PostAlaric Hasek, on 29 April 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

Russ finally said it: the player base needs to stop thinking that it knows better than PGI how to develop this game. They don't. If you _can_, let me know when you finish your perfect game and I'll come play it. Until then, put up or shut up.


Ah, thanks for the heads up. I didn't attend and now I know not to bother with any of the subsequent ones, either.

#39 Insufficient Skill

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 05:58 AM

View PostAlaric Hasek, on 29 April 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

Russ finally said it: the player base needs to stop thinking that it knows better than PGI how to develop this game. They don't. If you _can_, let me know when you finish your perfect game and I'll come play it. Until then, put up or shut up.

F I N A L L Y ! ! !
So please don't post in the forums. PGI knows better. Go to Twitter and tweet Russ directly. That's where he's getting his brilliant insights from anyway.

#40 Mister Blastman

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 06:21 AM

View Postgregsolidus, on 30 April 2016 - 05:15 AM, said:

I can't believe he actually used that fallacy. Just...Wow. I can understand that he's mad and all, the road has been rocky and full of frothing anger, but just hand waving criticism like that, whether its valid or not, makes him look like the *******.


Precisely!

When my beta readers tell me something is problematic--i.e. poor plot string, weak character, bad dialogue, is confusing, etc., I listen to them and thank them.

Now this is where it gets tricky--anyone who has created their own IP may be able to relate where I'm going with this. If one person brings up an issue and only one, then it might not be an issue at all but instead a style preference or perhaps their level of knowledge or they're accustomed to different genres. Sometimes, though, a single person issue might be a valuable suggestion and I've acted on those before when I thought they'd produce a neat result. If multiple folks bring up the same issue/suggestion/observation--well then we have a problem. And when that happens, I pay close attention. I then ask many follow-up questions to get to the bottom of what they're feeling.

Writing is actually a mystic art, believe it or not. Everyone watches shows or movies and some of those read, but actually knowing how to produce the content and how it all ties together is something entirely different. So when I get feedback from betas, it is essential I boil down to the root of the problem which often times they aren't able to express in their first observation. Sometimes they think they know what they're saying but they very well might not as they're blind to the overall scheme--these are the hard problems to solve, and I can only do it with their help. Other times the suggestions just jump out and scream--this sucks, fix it! The obvious ones I more than likely had thought about myself prior to the current draft but wasn't sure if it'd work or not so I included it to see what their reaction was. I may or may not have ideas already formed in my head how to tackle it but I start thinking about them right away.

In the end, the betas want to help me. In game development, the players want to help. But shunning the players and saying they don't know what they are talking about because they are players and not developers is not only counterproductive but also harmful to future player retention and acquisition. It's like slapping them in the face with a fish and shouting, "YOU SO STUPID!"



As a creator of IP, we must always humble ourselves and realize a couple of things...

a. We have a vision and know the overarching endgame
b. We have clients/fans/patrons who want to help us to succeed!
c. Our vision is often obscured by what we create as we know where it is going but that in no way makes us capable of assessing if it is effective or not due to our hidden knowledge.

point (b.) is the bridge between the first and the last. Without the fans, we might as well keep laboring in the dark and thinking, "Golly gee I've created the best thing ever!" But we'll never know, not until it is too late since we had a golden opportunity to listen and act and we ignored it.

This is what Russ' comment is like--ignoring us and that is a mistake. I hope he reconsiders, but alas, they may not. PGI has held their noses up for years now and typically don't do anything until the screams reach such a high fever pitch that the community is about to explode.

He needs to be interacting with us and seeking not only our feedback, but deep clarification to our problems to get to the root of the issue--and once he does this, he must do the most important thing of all... formulate a plan and act on it.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 30 April 2016 - 06:27 AM.






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