18 replies to this topic

[Gigashot]

Title.

Obviously the Direwolf is an arsenal and a half, but two side torso hits and you blow up at 94% HP.

What is the tankiest mech or, able to absorb the most punishment, on the Clan side?

Atlas seems pretty great at soaking metric tons of damage and breaking the firing line. So just wondering what our tankiest mech is.

[Argent Kaiser]

I personally have high hopes for the Kodiac. It looks fantastic on paper though on the other hand the Atlas hero variant looked good on paper too, instead in actuality it turned out to be a hot mess. Despite all of that however I am cautiously optimistic about the Kodiac. The only change I would beg PGI to put MASC in all the variants or allow us to put it in or take it out.

Edited by Argent Kaiser, 09 May 2016 - 10:17 AM.

[Gigashot]

So...it would appear we really don't have anything comparable yet? So far all we have is a possibility with an unreleased mech...

[ConanFodder]

Never mind.

Edited by ConanFodder, 09 May 2016 - 12:30 PM.

[Jack Candler]

I mostly agree with your post, Witchdoctor, and agree that the clans do not have a true Atlas-like assault mech, but there are a few things that clan assault mechs can do that you haven't mentioned.

For example, I have a Warhawk (short range brawler) that has huge fire power, UAC20, 4 x SRM6+A, 2 medium pulse lasers. That's a 104 damage alpha with a double-tap of the UAC20. I totally agree that it's fragile though - a glass cannon. Best used in a deathball. Serveral Brawlerhawks working together would be brutal.

The Executioner has high mounted torso hardpoints - ballistics and energy - perfect for gauss and/or large pulse lasers. It can hill poke ok-ish thanks to being able to quickly duck with MASC. It can also brawl and deathball fairly well with UAC10, 2 x SRM6 and 6 er small lasers - 74 alpha with a double-tap isn't shabby.

I agree with you 100% about the Gargoyle and the Direwolf.

Then we have the Highlander IIC, which a lot of people don't seem to like, but from what I've seen, it's quite versatile (can fight at all ranges well) and powerful - can do a similar build to the Brawlerhawk above - if a tad slow. In fact, I've seen one take an Atlas down. Probably the closest thing to a true assault mech that the clans have, just not as tanky as an Atlas - but then again, what is?

Edited by Jack Candler, 09 May 2016 - 06:41 PM.

[Zmflyin]

I agree with the Highlander IIC being the closest thing to a clan Atlas, but it is still missing in the survive-ability department due to lack of structure quirks and the arms do not shield very well. With that said, it has been on par or better than brawling with the warhawk. I do have my fingers crossed for the Kodiak. PGI should be starting the countdown for the kodiak soon enough and I hope to get more insight then.

[Jack Candler]

The Kodiak Hero mech will be the Clan Atlas, minus structure quirks.

I'm a little worried about the hit boxes and big side torsos, but MASC should help it spread damage at least.

Edited by Jack Candler, 09 May 2016 - 09:01 PM.

[Gigashot]

Witchdoctor1, on 09 May 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

We currently do not have a true Assault yet. CLOSEST thing would be the EXE, but it still falls short. All of the current Clan Assaults are niche or support 'Mechs thus far, simply due to the many glaring weaknesses they have. WHK is not tanky enough, nor can it be a strong weapons platform. The DWF is a walking battleship, but due to the YOOOGE hitboxes and terribly slow movement/torso twist, cannot facetank or lead a charge like a MAL or AS can. We have no real answer for the IS quick assaults, like the BNC or BLR either. Sure we have the GAR, but really? Speed and armor of a faster heavy, weapons of a medium and general usefulness of a (childish name for feces that apparently is censored by PGI). The EXE is the most balanced of the Clan Assaults, but it simply cannot boat weapons effectively. It has far too little available tonnage for its weight and its weapon hardpoints are too low to be an effective poker. So, until the Kodiak drops, which we still have to wait and see its usefulness, the only answer the Clans have to IS Assaults are well-built Gauss and Laser Vomit TBRs/HBRs/EBJs.

Then again, all that is my interpretation of 700+ hours of gameplay and being a total geek and studying all the MW:O guides and resources, like MetaMechs, that I can find.

This. This is really what I was asking about. I'm disappointed to hear that is the answer, but I appreciate your assessment. And looking back at what I've experienced so far in matches, it makes a lot of sense. Clans currently have niche assaults that fill a specific role, rather than "golem of the battlefield" that some of the IS assaults can do. But that we try to make up for it in strong heavy tier mechs. And Kodiak may fill the void.

I will keep that in mind as I craft my own playstyle and strategies. Thank you!

[Jack Candler]

Witchdoctor1, on 10 May 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

Apologies for not clarifying the EXE well enough. You are right, its torso hardpoints aren't BAD, per se, just not enough of them to really be effective at hill-humping. Its arm hardpoints ARE rather low, which limits what it can do.

A FEW builds on the WHK can boast great firepower, but again due to podspace and hardpoint issues, isn't great at boating one weapon type. The build you mention is pretty decent, but it has its limitations as well. You lose a lot of survivability in a glass cannon with all that ammo. Too easy to crit out and destroy much needed components. Too ammo dependent, as well. It would work great in QP, but FW it would be a one-drop 'Mech or maybe two if the opposing team shows their back to your ridiculously powerful fusillade enough.

As far as the HGN IIC, it IS tanky, but due to unbalanced hitboxes, it is terrible at shielding, and it doesn't torso twist very well. The only viable build I have ever had success with was an UBER long range build with 3xcERLL, 1xcGauss Rifle and 2xLRM 10s(?). Unfortunately, its accel/decel is abysmal at best, so it isn't even suitable in the role of a long range poker, and the Gauss placement requires you to expose much of the torso. I never understood why the IIC variants don't share the same quirks as their IS cousins, otherwise it would be far more viable (Orion IIC as well, which isn't bad to begin with). At least give the poor guy some buffs to accel/decel and it would be a pretty OK support 'Mech.

Well, let us Test Tube baby Clanner nerds get the MechaJesus in the KDK that we all hope it is, at least.

Well said, those are indeed the finer points.

In FW, I tend to burn through my mechs, but I have managed to pump out around 1000dmg with that particular Brawlerhawk, typically doing 1 and a half drops on base defense.

Agreed that the IIC mechs would have benefited from accel/decel quirks.

Edited by Jack Candler, 10 May 2016 - 04:20 PM.

[Gigashot]

First off just want to thank you all for your thoughts and opinions and taking the time to respond.

As a follow up question I wanted to ask: in light of that (lack of facetank assault, Atlas, sheildbreaker etc.) how do you approach the Invasion maps with insane choke points?

Last night we played two matches, attacker both times, same map both times (forget map name). And we got stomped. Obviously there are many factors that go into winning/losing so that's a vague question deserving of vague answers. But I am eager to get better, and to learn everything I can.

Like many maps as soon as we hit the gate we are faced with a situation where defenders have great cover, and room for all to fire at the same time. As attackers we have limited cover, and only a handful of firing positions with no room, stacked on top of each other. This is pretty standard. We decided to push, leading with the two Direwolves, due to their lack of speed. Even with heavy support, they get focused and die before they can make much of an impact. The rest of match continues south, we end up getting pushed back and finished off. So did we make a huge mistake leading with the Direwolves? Should we have sacrificed several TBRs or heavies instead to let the DWRs be more effective?

In that age old scenario of attacking, how do you approach the push, given that we don't have an Assault really suited to soak that damage and break the line?

Thank you for your time and responses!

-Gigashot

Edited by Gigashot, 11 May 2016 - 06:02 AM.

[Jack Candler]

The following are just basic opinions, but, depending on the map, fast mechs are usually preferred to minimize the time they're exposed to enemy fire. You want to ball up as a team and push through the gates, exchanging fire (preferably focusing on one or two targets to try take them out and get the numbers advantage) on the way to a defensible position inside the base where your team can regroup and fight/push from.

To break the enemy line, deathball and focus fire are key, imo. Lasers are usually best for focus fire, but, if you, or team mates, have great aim, UACs are great weapons - cockpit rattle often forces an enemy to run for cover, meaning one less mech to deal with for a short time.

All this is difficult to do and it helps immeasurably to have people using mics/headsets to help guide the rest of the team.

Direwolves are great when defending a base, but a huge liability when attacking because of its speed (slowing down the push and losing 100t on a push without much to show for it is a hell of a blow). For FW, I would take the Executioner every time over a Direwolf because it can run at 90kph thanks to MASC allowing it to keep up with fast heavies, and still dish respectable damage. However, the Executioner can be difficult to pilot. I would recommend practicing with it a lot first.

The Warhawk is worth considering too. I use it a fair bit in FW, and it's a solid performer.

Edited by Jack Candler, 11 May 2016 - 05:27 PM.

[Zolaz]

Witchdoctor1, on 10 May 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Clan assaults are not BAD, per se, but very limited. Once you figure out their strengths AND weaknesses, it is not unreasonable to field them. Except a DWF on FW invasion when you are attacking. Just... no. Defense or Hold Territory? Sure. Bring it every day. Attack? By the time you reach the rally point for a push, even Helen Keller knows where your whole team is.

I see you havent met 12 Daka Direwolves waddling to Omega on Vitric Forge. A lot of times that is all you need to bring Omega down. I have seen 12 DWs take out 24 mechs ... then they got the Timberwolves.

[MovinTarget]

Zolaz, on 11 May 2016 - 05:50 PM, said:

I see you havent met 12 Daka Direwolves waddling to Omega on Vitric Forge. A lot of times that is all you need to bring Omega down. I have seen 12 DWs take out 24 mechs ... then they got the Timberwolves.

Just don't stuck in the bottlenecks or tight corridors, heaven forbid you need to turn or back up quickly...

[KinLuu]

Gigashot, on 11 May 2016 - 06:01 AM, said:

Like many maps as soon as we hit the gate we are faced with a situation where defenders have great cover, and room for all to fire at the same time. As attackers we have limited cover, and only a handful of firing positions with no room, stacked on top of each other. This is pretty standard.

Exactly.

This is the reason why most experienced players and teams do not bring slow assaults on attack.

You need speed to be able to clear the chokepoint as quickly as possible, so that your team can fan out and get some nice firepower downrange.

[NightHawke]

IS has two assaults that have ECM... where is the ECM for the clans?

[2fast2stompy]

NightHawke, on 13 May 2016 - 05:27 AM, said:

IS has two assaults that have ECM... where is the ECM for the clans?

We don't need ECM, we need an assault that can actually take a couple of hits.

[Zolaz]

Witchdoctor1, on 12 May 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

I most certainly have. It works against IS skittles, but a coordinated 12-man of FRR or Kurita will embarrass you to the point that you feel like you are just wasting time. The DWF 12-man is GREAT on defense or hold territory, but on attack, you will get wrecked. Not that 700+hrs of experience in this means anything.

It works, if your team can hit what it is aiming at and can handle waddling into a firing line. Just because you can not do something does not mean that others cant.

[Rattazustra]

We simply do not have tanks. At all.
We also don't have point damage weapons. (except for the one that likes to explode in our own face)

There is the problem. A game is usually rock-paper-scissors in a way. This game is not. The Inner Sphere has tankyness AND precision damage. This is a design flaw, because you'd need precision damage to surgically cut through a tank with skill, while the tanky mech should have spray damage weapons against his much less tanky opponent. For some insane reason PGI decided to give both edge and counter to the same faction. But wait, clans have better sustained fire then, right? No, they don't.

Our tankiest assault mechs barely rival the Inner Sphere's tankiest heavies and our heavies are en par with their mediums. It is not the quirks themselves that break this game, or the weapon heat, or XL engines, or beam durations. It is the distribution of it all. Just look at lasers! Inner Sphere large pulse lasers have less duration than clan small pulse lasers. Without any quirks. After quirks that means that an IS mech with an equally good pilot is able to cut off a clanners side torso and then twist his own mech to maximize the use of all his tank quirks before the clanner is even finished firing much weaker and supposedly faster weapons. There is no way to counter that and no tank in the world is gonna fix that. It is a fundamental issue.

[lazytopaz]

2fast2stompy, on 15 May 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

We don't need ECM, we need an assault that can actually take a couple of hits.

Actually If we are to be fair. We need both. But we need a better and more tanky assault first, then a version that also has a variant that uses ECM.