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Are Any Of These Black Knights Any Good?


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#1 Requiemking

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 01:21 AM

So, I'm planning on picking up a Black Knight and I want to build them around maximising the use of their quirks. A lot of people keep saying that lasers are best for Black Knights, and while that is entirely true for one variant, based on quirks, it is not necessarily true for all of them. I will be listing my intent for each build as I post them.

1) Mordred
So, Mordred here is a BL-6B-KNT, and has a quirk that reduces ERPPC heat gen. As such, he is primarily based around mid- to long- range combat, with two ERPPCs acting as his main guns and seven medium lasers if someone gets close enough. I also have maxed out armour, making him tanky, as well as still not using all of his tonnage.

2) Gawain
Gawain is, due to the nature of his weapons, a strictly medium-range mech. He has six small lasers as back up weapons, making him somewhat scary, but the real terror comes from his right torso, with it's triple PPC array. That weapons array is meant to be chain-fired, as I heard some rather disturbing rumours about how mass firing more than two PPCs of any kind results in the total heat build up of all of them, but the burst damage of only two. (EDIT: I found out that this was implemented to shut down the Direstar build.)

3) Percival
Percival is the drop commander of the group. Despite having the least firepower of my Knights, he does have a command console, for what thats worth. I also upgraded to double heatsinks.

4)Tristan
Tristan is the most "Meta" of my Knights, being a medium pulse laser vomit build. He is the most expensive, but he is the most consistent with his damage output.

Feedback on these builds would be most appreciated.

Edited by Requiemking, 17 May 2016 - 01:37 AM.


#2 The Basilisk

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 02:23 AM

Speaking generaly PPCs aren't all out bad weapons. Especially for light or med energy heavy mechs they are ideal for minimizing face time and negating Clan Laser spam.
Their problem is beeing not hitscan and therefor beeing vulnerable to lags and overall bad hitreg of this game.

@ Mordred:
The Problem with this mech is ist diversity of ranges. You have 2 extreme range weapons that can be optimized fo range and refire rate.
What you lack is a high Alpha at Range (f.e. 3AC5 2ERPPC)
While I do belive it could be of some value in FW matches I think its high heatload combined with so caused low refire rate and short overall range would be cripplin in PuG matches.

@ Gawain:
By chainfiring PPCs you are combining 3 downsides of MWO Weapons, possibly distributed damage, non hitscan, high heat, travel time.
Make it 4 PPCs and fire them 2+2. Its likefiring AC20 over 600m at full dmg with low travel time and no ammo.
Backup weapons sound good but you will likely never use them when you stay with your team (like in always or you are dead anyways) So its justa waste of space thtwoul be btte used for Engine or heatsinks.

@ Percy:
Again if you use long range weapons...do it and stay at range. You can fire 5 ER LLas on a BlackKnight with te right layout. Using CC+Sensmod+Beagle+ERLLasRangemod gives you on of the longest range prcisesniping mechs in game.
But wouldfirethe Lazors 3+2. Depending on Map and circumstances you may fire 25 to 40 secs nonstop before going into critical heat rages.

@ Tris: If you want meta try 3 LPLs+ 5Mpls....sounds insane but you can fire 2 Alphas in row before having to back of but thats 128 dmg and enough to kill most meds if aimed carefully.

#3 justcallme A S H

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 02:45 AM

Mech #1 - Not bad I guess

Mech #2 - Will be epic hot, 9.5 heat per shot. You won't get a lot of damage out the the dissipation. One less PPC, more heat sink and faster would be my choice.

Mech #3 - Stick to ERL, don't mix a ERPPC into it. You could go 3 ERL, larger motor and more heat sinks. Only issue is they are torso mounted so you've really gotta stick your neck out to get anywhere. Not really good at long range poking.

Mech #4 - Good standard laser Meta, you've obviously gotta make sure you're twisting out that damage given the shorter range of the MPL vs a LPL/ML build.

Mech #1 - Not bad I guess

Mech #2 - Will be epic hot, 9.5 heat per shot. You won't get a lot of damage out the the dissipation. One less PPC, more heat sink and faster would be my choice.

Mech #3 - Stick to ERL, don't mix a ERPPC into it. You could go 3 ERL, larger motor and more heat sinks. Only issue is they are torso mounted so you've really gotta stick your neck out to get anywhere. Not really good at long range poking.

Mech #4 - Good standard laser Meta, you've obviously gotta make sure you're twisting out that damage given the shorter range of the MPL vs a LPL/ML build.

#4 S 0 L E N Y A

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 07:05 AM

Honesty mode, engage!
This is going to get really long btw..
So specific to you OP: I do not like any of those builds.
The closest one that I would consider OK is the last one, and I don't really care for it either.
They are all too slow. Some are too hot. All of them have poor armor placement. Most of them have far from optimal weapons payloads.


Let us start with some fundamental theory behind the black knight.

The black knight fits into two different classes of the "meta." The first is the obvious laser vomit (and laser meta is not simply just boating any ol energy weapons you want). The second (which is what I want to emphasize here) is the big engine meta.

Big engine meta does not get talked about as much as the weapon meta, but it is almost as crucial of a topic to get the most of your builds. I will focus on big engine meta since weapons meta is covered in every other post on this forum.


Big engine meta is when you put as large as a motor (or very close to it) in your mech (duh). Why?

The first reason is pretty obvious: hot nasty speed! All the whiz bang weapons and gadgets on your mech do not mean a damn thing if you are not in the right position to use them. Positioning as a whole is probably the most difficult skill to really master in this game and I would even argue that it is even more important than gunnery skills. So speed helps you get where you need to be ASAP. It is not just simply to the front line of the fight. It is also crucial to shifting flanks and running to or from cover. Running to cover is VERY important for the BK, because you are going to run hot! You do not want to be sitting in the open waiting to cool down before you can fire back at the enemy, or even worse yet- shut down.

The second reason is spreading damage.The higher your engine rating the faster you can torso twist. I'm guessing you may know this already but for those that do not - - -> You do not want to let your enemy focus their fire on your center torso or any crucial/critical component of your mech. You want to quickly twist in order to spread the damage. As the match progresses you may have an area that is much more damaged than another, so now your focus is twisting to hide the weaker side of your mech. Also, the majority of meta builds are very asymmetric in their weapons placement. The mech may either have a strong side and a weak side, OR a dead side which is devoid of weapons and equipment. Faster torso twisting allows you to use your weak/dead side as a shield while preserving the side of your mech with your precious weapons payload. The bottom line here is big motor = faster twisting. Faster twisting = better survivability.

The third reason (which is not often discussed in big engine meta discussions) is space for more heatsinks!
Pretty explanatory I think. The bigger the motor the more room you get to stuff heat sinks in the motor itself. Because IS double heat sinks take up so much room, being able to stuff a lot of heatsinks in the motor helps A LOT.

So how does this apply to the BK? Stuff the largest XL (or close to largest) in that bad boy and laser vomit your way to victory.

If you need further inspiration for build ideas, check here: Metamechs.com

#5 MasterBLB

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 08:51 AM

Slightly fixed Tristan - 325 engine + one additinal heatsink.How you've missed that spare tonnage is beyond me.

#6 Requiemking

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 10:03 AM

Thank you all for your responses. I will respond to you individually.

@Basilisk
Your points do make sense, and I will consider all of them. Unfortunately, in order to get four PPCs on Gawain I would need to lower the engine size and possibly remove some of his armour in ordered to get the tonnage for the fourth one.

@R31Nismoid
I'll consider these suggestions.

@Boogie138
Unfortunately, it seems you missed the part where I said that I was trying to build around their quirks. While your suggestions work well for the 7L and the 6 to an extent, laser vomit builds are completely wasted on the 6B and the 7. Hence my design for Mordred and Gawain. However, I will take this into consideration for the other two.

@MasterBLB
Thanks. It was really late when I made that build, so thanks for pointing that out.

Edited by Requiemking, 17 May 2016 - 10:03 AM.


#7 The Basilisk

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 11:10 PM

View PostRequiemking, on 17 May 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

Thank you all for your responses. I will respond to you individually.

@Basilisk
Your points do make sense, and I will consider all of them. Unfortunately, in order to get four PPCs on Gawain I would need to lower the engine size and possibly remove some of his armour in ordered to get the tonnage for the fourth one.
[...]


Try a 350XL Reaktor endo and 7DHS with quad PPC ist bad on DPS but has great potenial making kills.
And as far as my experiences with the Black Knight go XL or not is no big difference...just stay clear of SRM Vultures and SRM Jenners.

#8 Requiemking

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 11:38 PM

So, here are the new versions of Mordred, Percival, and Gawain. Hopefully, they are a little better than the previous versions.

1) Percival

2) Mordred

3) Gawain

All of these builds lean towards different extremes, due to me working around their quirks. Tristan has the highest DPS, Mordred has the highest firepower, Gawain excels in no particular area, and Parcival is the fastest and runs the coldest.

Edited by Requiemking, 17 May 2016 - 11:40 PM.


#9 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 12:14 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 17 May 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

@Boogie138
Unfortunately, it seems you missed the part where I said that I was trying to build around their quirks. While your suggestions work well for the 7L and the 6 to an extent, laser vomit builds are completely wasted on the 6B and the 7. Hence my design for Mordred and Gawain. However, I will take this into consideration for the other two.


The thing is that quirks don't make up for bad loadouts here. PPCs aren't nearly as effective as something like a large pulse laser. The large pulse laser puts out more damage for less heat. PPCs also work badly on Black Knights due to their low placement, allowing them to snag on rocks and other little bits of cover when trying to fire. Even with all the ERPPC quirks the Black Knight has factored in you'd have a more effective mech not running them.

Now we should also bring into account ghost heat, which will ruin your day often with the builds I see. For example your new Mordred will be taking a mildly higher increase in heat due if it were to fire 7 of its MPLs at once if you don't split them into two groups, one for arm one for torso. Gawain would be stuck firing 2 PPCs at a time while Percival can fire 3 lasers at a time, but due to weapon placement would be better off firing in two groups of two to sync your torso and arm weapons.

I'll just give an example build that I use personally

Black Knight

I opted for taking just 2 large pulse lasers rather than 3 and took medium pulse lasers rather than normal medium lasers over the generic 3 LPL 5 ML build as I disliked the longer durations of standard medium lasers, found MPLs to be perfect for the brawling ranges I usually fight in, and enjoy running with an alpha that isn't as hot. I have all the medium pulse lasers in the torso so that they can remain one weapon group and the large pulse lasers all in the arm so that I keep the firing controls very simple and effective, it also allows me to strip one arm of most of its armor for extra tonnage without much extra risk. The build ended with no free tonnage or free slots left, and preformed very well for me.

But I'd like to know if you are building your mechs for maximum effectiveness in combat or if you are trying to keep them different by chasing the quirks very heavily on each one even when it cuts deeply into effectiveness.

If you are going for the first one I'd suggest taking from your experience, thinking about what things you had problems with in each match then trying to improve them after said match. Also think about how you control your mech in battle and its firing groups, the effects of ghost heat, and the range you are usually at in battle.

Edited by Dakota1000, 18 May 2016 - 12:20 AM.


#10 Requiemking

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 10:37 AM

View PostDakota1000, on 18 May 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:


The thing is that quirks don't make up for bad loadouts here. PPCs aren't nearly as effective as something like a large pulse laser. The large pulse laser puts out more damage for less heat. PPCs also work badly on Black Knights due to their low placement, allowing them to snag on rocks and other little bits of cover when trying to fire. Even with all the ERPPC quirks the Black Knight has factored in you'd have a more effective mech not running them.

Now we should also bring into account ghost heat, which will ruin your day often with the builds I see. For example your new Mordred will be taking a mildly higher increase in heat due if it were to fire 7 of its MPLs at once if you don't split them into two groups, one for arm one for torso. Gawain would be stuck firing 2 PPCs at a time while Percival can fire 3 lasers at a time, but due to weapon placement would be better off firing in two groups of two to sync your torso and arm weapons.

I'll just give an example build that I use personally

Black Knight

I opted for taking just 2 large pulse lasers rather than 3 and took medium pulse lasers rather than normal medium lasers over the generic 3 LPL 5 ML build as I disliked the longer durations of standard medium lasers, found MPLs to be perfect for the brawling ranges I usually fight in, and enjoy running with an alpha that isn't as hot. I have all the medium pulse lasers in the torso so that they can remain one weapon group and the large pulse lasers all in the arm so that I keep the firing controls very simple and effective, it also allows me to strip one arm of most of its armor for extra tonnage without much extra risk. The build ended with no free tonnage or free slots left, and preformed very well for me.

But I'd like to know if you are building your mechs for maximum effectiveness in combat or if you are trying to keep them different by chasing the quirks very heavily on each one even when it cuts deeply into effectiveness.

If you are going for the first one I'd suggest taking from your experience, thinking about what things you had problems with in each match then trying to improve them after said match. Also think about how you control your mech in battle and its firing groups, the effects of ghost heat, and the range you are usually at in battle.

I want to keep my builds different, as I loathe running the same build on all variants of the same mech. I know it cuts the effectiveness of some of them, but I want to enjoy playing the different builds as well, rather than the designation of the mech being little more than a cosmetic thing due to them all running the same build.

#11 MasterBLB

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 01:35 PM

You know what Requiemking?Screw that yellings about efficiency,meta etc,play your Knight the way you enjoy.
Therefore,I'm not going to drastically differ my drafts from your initial mechs,from 1st post.First,I disagree that speed overcomes survivability.With XL engine you spoil one of greatest merits of Black Knight which is evenly distributed hardpoints.Second,BLs has torso and arm hardpoint at practically the same height,so it may be good idea to put main damage weapon there.
Soo,back to mechs:
BL-6B-KNT Mordred
Moving ER PPCs into arms should make easier for you to aim these.On Mid to close distance your main attack should be 2xERPPC,then 5xML from torso and head,and 2xML in arms.Ghost heat should not be much of a problem due to -10% energy heat quirk.Also note to put ER PPC and ML in right order,so it'll be placed on top of forearm.

BL-7-KNT Gawain
This one is good as it is imo.You can shoot even 3 PPCs at once,and don't be fried by ghost heat.While cooling down,or while being annoyed by some light mech you has battery of lasers to defend.And backup/support weapons are more handy than not.I've upgraded SL in head to ML - purpose is to have something at greater range to poke opponents when you'll peek over a hill for opportunity for an attack during cooling down PPCs.Alternatively,you could move PPCs into arms,but that'd make it similar to Percival,not to mention shooting from whole width of your Knight might have convergence issues.Those 3 PPCs in RT are nicely packed together.

BL-6-KNT Percival
My predecessors rightly pointed that ER PPC is not fitting there.I advise to go entirely into 3xER LL,and move them into arms for easier control and fights around corners.If you have use ER LL Range weapon module,as well as Advanced Zoom.

And as a bonus - really nicely painted Black Knight - http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4714510

Edited by MasterBLB, 18 May 2016 - 01:39 PM.


#12 Requiemking

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 03:41 PM

Thanks for your input. I think I know which order I'm going to pick up the Knights, as it is one of the few mechs I truly want to master. First things first, I'm probably going to get Mordred first, as he is more my style. Then I will get Gawain and Percival, just not sure which one first. Tristan will be the last one I pick up, as I don't like meta builds and that is sadly what he is. I wouldn't mind some suggestions for camo, as I would like them to look different as well.

#13 Sjorpha

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Posted 21 May 2016 - 05:58 AM

Black knight is a really bad PPC mech for a number of reasons, and sadly that includes the ones with PPC quirks.

Whether you like it or not Boogie138 has given you the most relevant advice so far.

That's assuming the goal is to make strong builds, if want to do things your way because fun just go ahead and do it.

If you want a mech that is actually good with PPCs, there is the Blackjack-3, a couple of the warhammers, and all mechs that can effectively synergize PPCs and ballistics like gauss or AC5 into long range high damage shots. There are also a few mechs with high hardpoints or jumpjets that can be workable with PPCs such as the Shadowhawk 2K etc.

Edited by Sjorpha, 21 May 2016 - 06:08 AM.






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