1017 replies to this topic

[Steve Pryde]

Gyrok, on 29 May 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

Removing the quirks is a nerf, and the mech is not OP.

Why nerf what is not OP?

Yeah, but a 100t mech with such a big engine cap don't need agility quirks (no one runs it with a 300 xl engine, most of the time it has a 350 xl engine or higher). And with better hitboxes, especially when PGI shrinks down the ct hitbox, no Kodiak would need structure quirks.

When a 100t clan mech needs structure or agility quirks, then it's the Dire Wolf, not the Kodiak.

Edited by Steve Pryde, 30 May 2016 - 02:18 AM.

[Kangarad]

I dont think It needs to be nerfd, the rest of the Kodiaks just need the same quirks to make em viable against their quirked counterparts.

And for the Hitbox issue? its going to get fix'd, in the meantime could someone overlay the KDK with the KGC and show both hitbox sizes? Just to show how good those actualy are...

[Sjorpha]

1453 R, on 29 May 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Thought experiment here, Mischief.

Let's say they do exactly what everyone 'claims' to want for the KDK-3 - strip its quirks, fix its hitboxes. No redquirks, no idiotic "We're relocating the torso ballistics to lovehandles hanging below the 'Mech's waist" lunacy - just exactly what you're saying. Strip the quirks. Assume the hitboxes get fixed even though we're all fairly certain that Piranha will keep the wonky weird hitboxes as a 'balance measure' because people are screaming all day erry day about the KDK-3, but for the purposes of this experiment: fixed hitboxes, no quirks.

You say this as if we don't already know how an unquirked Kodiak handles.

But we already know exactly how it will handle, the two variants without quirks have no agility or durability problems by assault standards when mounting the typical 375-400 engine. The 3 would handle exactly as they do given that the meta builds on it runs 375+ engines too.

Quote

Everyone says "You can have any two: firepower, mobility, durability." They are clearly lying, because anything that has both Firepower and Mobility is ruined by this forum as fast as they can possibly manage it.

Most mechs in the game have considerable firepower, that's why we have all the TTK rants. The need for a tradeoff arises when you have some strength to the extreme, there needs to be a weakness to compensate that. That's why extreme firepower on the Direwolf and Mauler isn't a balance problem, it's a good thing that they are that clumsy.

Mechs that are good/decent at everything are super boring IMO, and also the most problematic to balance well. IMO it's bad game design to even release that type of mechs because it kills role warfare when a single mech has a little of everything.

When you build a IS assault glass cannon with a King Crab, Banshee or Mauler you choose between being really slow or having ST destruction. The KGC and MAL typically chooses being real slow while the Banshee typically chooses ST destruction. They are all good mechs but the tradeoff in building them is real.

If the Kodiak had IS XL it would certainly need quirks in the same ranges as those mechs do, but since it can skip over the whole slow versus ST destruction tradeoff game it gets a lot of free points in both areas and doesn't need any extra help.

Look, I love my Kodiaks, I really do. But they don't need quirks, apart from structure on SB to allow the brawling role and maybe something on the ones with too many redundant E hardpoints. It's a GOOD thing that they don't need quirks, that means they are successfully designed.

Fixed hitboxes will make that design pretty much perfect, we will then be able to use the Kodiak as a base level norm of power to balance other mechs around.

The game should have as few quirks as possible. In cases where IS mechs are too strong the solution should always be to tone down IS quirks, not to add quirks to those clan mechs that already provide a good baseline for tier 1 quirk free design. If there are IS mechs that actually end up so well designed that they don't need any quirks they shouldn't have them either, and if the tech bases including engines etc were actually ton for ton balanced we would have quite a lot of IS mechs that could be entirely unquirked.

I say naturally strong clan mechs like the Kodiak, stormcrow and Timberwolf, without quirks, are at the maximum power level that should be allowed to be normative in the game. IS mechs and other clan mechs should be buffed or nerfed as needed to apply that norm, but as soon as you start losing the norm and buff those naturally strong mechs to compensate for other mechs being overquirked the power creep just runs out of hand, AND THAT IS A REALLY BAD IDEA!

Heck if it was up to me I'd normalize the game around a much lower power level, say that of an unquirked IS hunchback would be a nice norm IMO, much more battletech feel when each gun fired is distinct, and then apply that norm across the board. But since that kind of more reasonable norms isn't going to happen we are left with Timberwolf/Kodiak setting the norms.

(Nope that has absolutely nothing to do with "making everything the same" if someone was tempted to pull that old dead horse strawman meme out of their hats, it has never been a valid rebuttal to anything)

Edited by Sjorpha, 30 May 2016 - 03:44 AM.

[Lily from animove]

pug life:

see giant mech not familiar with: panick make mistakes, die, claim mech OP. let pGI nerf it.

[Hit the Deck]

Sjorpha, on 30 May 2016 - 03:12 AM, said:

...It's a GOOD thing that they don't need quirks, that means they are successfully designed.

I like dis. This philosophy also fits PGI's current single chassis per "pack" model which hopefully eliminates trash robots being released in the future (hey, I know you love your Unseens and nostalgia 'Mechs so they are still alright ). This 'Mech "so well designed it doesn't need any quirk" most probably would be a Clan one though, like has been seen several times before

[Sjorpha]

Also the elephant in the Room:

Whichever side of the discussion you are, think about the fact that PGI is introducing this thing with it's different issues, messed up hitboxes, poorly justified quirks (in both directions) and so on, and then locks that into the world tournament client before the fixes...

Ain't that ******* brilliant?

Edited by Sjorpha, 30 May 2016 - 04:12 AM.

[Panzermagistratus]

What's so scary about the kodiak? It dies to me?

[The Basilisk]

Don't think this big jokebear needs nerfs....my averange dmg is around 300-400 and it seldomly survives the first 20secs of enemy contact. The downside of the Kodiak is clearly that is less survivable than most slow mediums.

Sure if ppl are stupid enough to ignore it they get eaten but normaly its just a big juicy target...quirks dont make any difference to me regarding its survivability.

Edited by The Basilisk, 30 May 2016 - 04:32 AM.

[cazidin]

The Basilisk, on 30 May 2016 - 04:29 AM, said:

Don't think this big jokebear needs nerfs....my averange dmg is around 300-400 and it seldomly survives the first 20secs of enemy contact. The downside of the Kodiak is clearly that is less survivable than most slow mediums.

Sure if ppl are stupid enough to ignore it they get eaten but normaly its just a big juicy target...quirks dont make any difference to me regarding its survivability.

Armor or structure quirks would make a difference regarding its survivability.

[Mystere]

Steve Pryde, on 30 May 2016 - 02:17 AM, said:

Yeah, but a 100t mech with such a big engine cap don't need agility quirks (no one runs it with a 300 xl engine, most of the time it has a 350 xl engine or higher). And with better hitboxes, especially when PGI shrinks down the ct hitbox, no Kodiak would need structure quirks.

When a 100t clan mech needs structure or agility quirks, then it's the Dire Wolf, not the Kodiak.

I don't think you answered Gyrok's question.

Sjorpha, on 30 May 2016 - 03:12 AM, said:

Heck if it was up to me I'd normalize the game around a much lower power level, say that of an unquirked IS hunchback would be a nice norm IMO, much more battletech feel when each gun fired is distinct, and then apply that norm across the board. But since that kind of more reasonable norms isn't going to happen we are left with Timberwolf/Kodiak setting the norms.

FYI, the Timberwolf nearly every IS player loves to hate has been butchered so much it has now been relegated to T2, or at best a lowly T1.

Edited by Mystere, 30 May 2016 - 07:33 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Mystere, on 30 May 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

....
FYI, the Timberwolf nearly every IS player loves to hate has been butchered so much it has now been relegated to T2, or at best a lowly T1.

Butchered so much? Have you checked the quirks?

[Mystere]

Hit the Deck, on 30 May 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:

Butchered so much? Have you checked the quirks?

What quirks, the +15 torso turn rate of a complete TBR-S that cancels the -15 torso turn rate of a complete TBR-S?

[Bishop Steiner]

Steve Pryde, on 30 May 2016 - 02:17 AM, said:

Yeah, but a 100t mech with such a big engine cap don't need agility quirks (no one runs it with a 300 xl engine, most of the time it has a 350 xl engine or higher). And with better hitboxes, especially when PGI shrinks down the ct hitbox, no Kodiak would need structure quirks.

When a 100t clan mech needs structure or agility quirks, then it's the Dire Wolf, not the Kodiak.

sorry, running the 1 and 5, on that big of a target, with a HUGE movement profile, I disagree on that. Big Engine or not, they are still laughably unimpressive in the agility department. The 2,3,4 and SB feel just about right. I could care less about the 3 as a variant, but seeing people want to nerf all of them when only one even "represented" in the Leaderboards (and only then with a huge asterisks) ?

This is the crap I'm talking about. Wanting to see the under performing KDKs get nerfed with the one potential overachiever?

The structure quirks are actually pretty laughable on the KDK, so go ahead and kill those. But would you please show me all the KDK2, KDK4 and Spirit Bear OP threads and posts before you decide they should be unilaterally nerfed, too?

cazidin, on 30 May 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

Armor or structure quirks would make a difference regarding its survivability.

Atlas level.

Rather have the mobility, hence the big engine.

[Corrado]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

sorry, running the 1 and 5, on that big of a target, with a HUGE movement profile, I disagree on that. Big Engine or not, they are still laughably unimpressive in the agility department. The 2,3,4 and SB feel just about right. I could care less about the 3 as a variant, but seeing people want to nerf all of them when only one even "represented" in the Leaderboards (and only then with a huge asterisks) ?

This is the crap I'm talking about. Wanting to see the under performing KDKs get nerfed with the one potential overachiever?

The structure quirks are actually pretty laughable on the KDK, so go ahead and kill those. But would you please show me all the KDK2, KDK4 and Spirit Bear OP threads and posts before you decide they should be unilaterally nerfed, too?


Atlas level.

Rather have the mobility, hence the big engine.

yes the SB without agility would suck big time. if gets quirks removed, i'll go back playing the EXE either with 12SPL, or 2ASRM6+6MPL, 6SPL+UAC20... with mobility quirks, the same mask and way more tanky geometry, will be definately superior (if not already)

[Steve Pryde]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

sorry, running the 1 and 5, on that big of a target, with a HUGE movement profile, I disagree on that.

Then all 100t assaults without agility quirks are too slow. Say hello to Dire Wolf.

[Bishop Steiner]

Steve Pryde, on 30 May 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

Then all 100t assaults without agility quirks are too slow. Say hello to Dire Wolf.

Yes so the obvious answer is to make everything else equally bad. Bravo.

[Gyrok]

Steve Pryde, on 30 May 2016 - 02:17 AM, said:

Yeah, but a 100t mech with such a big engine cap don't need agility quirks (no one runs it with a 300 xl engine, most of the time it has a 350 xl engine or higher). And with better hitboxes, especially when PGI shrinks down the ct hitbox, no Kodiak would need structure quirks.

When a 100t clan mech needs structure or agility quirks, then it's the Dire Wolf, not the Kodiak.

The Atlas is more agile with a 360 engine than the KDK is with a 375 engine. It twists better, accelerates faster, and even has more structure.

Is the atlas OP?

[cazidin]

There's a good chance the Kodiak will be indirectly nerfed in the next patch depending how much more space the side torsi will occupy.

[Roadkill]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

So if comp tier players of comparable skill play 1 v 1 KDK3 vs Mauler, Banshee or Atlas, you think the KDK3 will win at most 50% of the time?

In a word, yes.

I think if you were to run a 1v1 weekend using only those 4 Mechs that you would find they're balanced amongst themselves. Thousands of matches, please. No tiny little 4 matches per map per pair experiments.

On some maps, the Atlas will have an advantage. On other maps, the Mauler will have an advantage. On yet further maps, the Banshee and/or KDK-3 will have an advantage.

Overall across all maps I suspect the Banshee would be the "best" of the four. The KDK-3 might be second, but I'm not even sure about that vs the Mauler.

Quote

Incredible burst damage, incredible DPS, great range, mediocre survivability, best in class mobility by a big margin. Among assaults it's significantly better overall.

Hence needs quirks removed, hitboxes fixes.

Riiight. So remove quirks that affect none of the problems except one, and that's somehow going to magically fix everything? Furthermore, you're going to make the one negative that you've listed even worse in the process?

This statement alone from you proves to me that you have an agenda and aren't actually concerned about balance. You're normally very reasoned and have a solid foundation of facts behind your opinions, but this time it seems to be emotional. The nerf you've proposed won't even fix the problems that you perceive.

[1453 R]

MischiefSC, on 29 May 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

So to answer your somewhat contrived question, yes. Absolutely. If the KDK3 ends up somehow magically worthless if it's only as maneuverable as a Banshee while having more firepower and better durability then it'll need quirks.

Just like the whole Clan assault line other than the KDK needs rescaled, possibly rebuilt from scratch, animation fixes and balance improvements that go beyond quirks. We need to accept the overall power creep and give the Dire Wolf 90 degree rotation for example and in addition to a rescale/remodel give it some hardcore structure buffs and twist rate buffs. While Clan weapon loadouts are flat out superior in general on a ton-ton basis the goal should be that if an Atlas and a Daishi walk around the corner in the tunnel in Crimson Strait it's even odds on who comes out.

Sjorpha, on 30 May 2016 - 03:12 AM, said:

You say this as if we don't already know how an unquirked Kodiak handles.

But we already know exactly how it will handle, the two variants without quirks have no agility or durability problems by assault standards when mounting the typical 375-400 engine. The 3 would handle exactly as they do given that the meta builds on it runs 375+ engines too.

I’m going to surprise folks here, having taken the weekend to visit with my family and take a few days off of forum ranting for a while.

I don’t really give a good goat-dang what happens to the KDK-3. I’ve tried multiple builds on it, faster and slower, mixed autocannons, mixed Gauss-and-autocannons, mixed-Gauss-autocannons-and-ERSL for flavor. Virtually every time I head out in the blasted thing it gets me dead. I honestly hate the machine and will be so glad when I can put it up and not deal with it anymore. I can see and understand the issues all the Comp Tier folks are saying about the KDK-3’s firepower issues.

So yes, fine. Strip the quirks from the KDK-3, let it be bad, because clearly the Clans just aren’t allowed to have worthwhile assault ‘Mechs. A’ight, good, cool.

Why does this require that the rest of the chassis be ruined, as well?

So far as I am aware, the prevailing Meta Overlord opinion on the KDK-1 and the KDK-5, from ultracomp players who’re more talented, insightful, rational, and also cleaner, prettier, and better-smelling than I am is that both the KDK-1 and the KDK-5 are generally worthless. Over-saturated with low-mounted energy hardpoints they can’t properly utilize, not all that much faster or more maneuverable than a Dire Whale, and incredibly fragile despite its bulk due to bad hitboxes and the sheer, stupefying size of the things. The KDK-2 and KDK-4 are half-salvaged by the presence of moderate agility quirks and very minor structure, while the Spirit Bear is only viable with M.A.S.C. and those same agility quirks.

The KDK-3 has Dire Whale-level firepower, yes. None of the others do. The 1 and the 5 are honestly hard-pressed to match ordinary Gaussvomit builds that have been in use on Clan heavy ‘Mechs since the Clan release, sacrificing speed and durability for not actually that much firepower increase over a beamvomit Hellbringer or a Gaussvomit Timber Wolf. The KDK-2 jumps as well as a Highlander does, which is to say “theoretically, if you squint hard enough”, and has the same “Clan heavy at best” firepower issues as the 1 and the 5.

The 4 has half a KDK-3’s ballistic hardpoints and can actually approach assault ‘Mech level firepower, but is still shockingly fragile and Whale-level slow and stupid without any of its patch-up quirks. The Spirit Bear is an incredibly fun strike-brawler which is only viable because of its M.A.S.C. in combination with its agility quirks – even with M.A.S.C. and quirks, most folks I’ve seen tend to be of the opinion that if an AS7-S and a Spirit Bear turn a corner and run into each other, the Spirit Bear is the one that loses. Its superior mobility lets it pick fights better, which can allow it to make a bigger overall impact on the match at times, but it is a strike brawler, not an out-and-out land battleship like the Atlas.

Cull the Kodiak’s quirks and remodel its hardpoint locations as many suggest, and yes – the KDK-3 will be “competitive” with some Sphere overquirked dakkamonsters. The KDK-4, as well, may survive, though probably only in niche roles as something like an asym dual-Goose sniper or such, considering the chassis’ overall fragility and extreme, incurable vulnerability to CT-coring. If hardpoints are remodeled lower though, this option would be denied the 4 and it’d likely fade away as well through the lack of sheer, overwhelming dakka the KDK-3 and Whale can punch out.

The KDK-1, KDK-2, KDK-5, and Spirit Bear will all die; the 1, 2, and 5, will all be slower, flimsier, and less heavily armed than comparable GigaQuirked Sphere assault ‘Mechs, reliant on low-slung, easily-removed arm-mounted weaponry and unable to carry the overwhelming dakka complement of the 3, the Mauler, or the Whale, or to effectively cool the superheavy energy armaments of the Banshee. The Spirit Bear will have neither the durability to stand up in a straight brawl nor the mobility to pick its engagements and strike as it does now.

Everybody says they want the Kodiak chassis to still be good. Sjorpha in particular claims the laudable goal of wanting to reduce egregious overquirking on all sides, and frankly I can get behind that. But here’s the thing – we all know that reducing the Sphere’s absolutely stupid level of redonkulous overquirkage is never going to happen. The Gargoyle is a disaster, the Executioner isn’t far behind, the Highlander IIC is held up in other threads as a poster child for the argument “Clan ‘Mechs need quirks sometimes too!”, and the Whale hasn’t been an actual problem since a month after the Invasion injection for anyone who can recognize that standing in front of the Badyear Blimp is not the optimal strategy. The Warhawk is the size of the Whale for no good reason and as much as I enjoy mine, they don’t have the firepower or durability to compete head-to-head with Sphere GigAssaults and don’t quite have the mobility to end-run them, either.

None of that is ever going to be fixed. Every other Clan assault in this game with the partial exception of the Whale is a write-off and they pretty much always will be – just look at what Catapult drivers had to go through to get their machine looked at, and even then Piranha is only reworking it so they can sell a new Catapult hero.

We have ONE Clan assault chassis anywhere near worthy of the designation ‘Assault’. Of that chassis, three of the six available variants are as bad as every other Clan assault, two are ‘acceptable’, and one is actually dangerous.

Is it really any wonder that some folks are trying to head off the inevitable devastation of the entire chassis thanks to the KDK-3’s Pedobear rampage during a highly game-warping weekend event?

Edited by 1453 R, 31 May 2016 - 12:40 PM.