1017 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Raso, on 23 May 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

The lack of torso twisting so many KDK3s do, though.... Like I watch two eat each other's CTs to shreds then just swoop in and maul the survivors (assuming it isn't an ally).
They have hugely exploitable weaknesses once people figure them out. Being a second line KDK-3 with a bit of range is fantastic because while daaaaaaaaaa bears are face tanking each other's UACs you get to either be the DPS that helps your buddy break even or the savager who swoops in for the kills. I believe once the novelty wears off we'll see more UAC40 KDK-3s on the front lines and more UAC5/UAC10 combo KDK-3s at the rear. These power builds have the strange effect of leaving one team with a bunch of red core Kodiaks and the other team with none. I've actually seen it come down to no Kodiaks in sight during end game many times

In fairness, twisting while generally a good idea, doesn't do much against Good aim when You have the size and hitboxes of the KDK. Even the person most intent on making the KDK into public enemy number one largely acknowledges that, apparently.

But those who automatically assume that if PGI removes the quirks, that they will also for sure fix the hitboxes?. Are laughably naive

[Raso]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

In fairness, twisting while generally a good idea, doesn't do much against Good aim when You have the size and hitboxes of the KDK. Even the person most intent on making the KDK into public enemy number one largely acknowledges that, apparently.

But those who automatically assume that if PGI removes the quirks, that they will also for sure fix the hitboxes?. Are laughably naive

Yeah the CT does feel very squishy. All the more reason two face tanking, UAC spewing Kodiaks quickly devolves into 1 dead KDK and a mostly dead KDK.
I've had the best of luck in my KDK-1 when I could lay low until late game and coup de grace a bunch of chewed up KDK-3s with a barrage of SPLs and my UAC20. It's like the ultimate slap to the face, a mighty UAC bear taken out with a single volley of SPLs. I think I managed to core 3 in a row one game.
Granted if the KDK-3s leave the other KDK-3s alone until late game that's when it gets dicey.
IDK I see how powerful the KDK-3s seem to be but they have a counter or two. I think if anything this is an issue of the dangers of front loaded pin point damage. But we both know no one will do jack about that elephant in the room.

[Bishop Steiner]

Raso, on 23 May 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

Yeah the CT does feel very squishy. All the more reason two face tanking, UAC spewing Kodiaks quickly devolves into 1 dead KDK and a mostly dead KDK.
I've had the best of luck in my KDK-1 when I could lay low until late game and coup de grace a bunch of chewed up KDK-3s with a barrage of SPLs and my UAC20. It's like the ultimate slap to the face, a mighty UAC bear taken out with a single volley of SPLs. I think I managed to core 3 in a row one game.
Granted if the KDK-3s leave the other KDK-3s alone until late game that's when it gets dicey.
IDK I see how powerful the KDK-3s seem to be but they have a counter or two. I think if anything this is an issue of the dangers of front loaded pin point damage. But we both know no one will do jack about that elephant in the room.

Yeah. A counter or two.

Massive CT.
Potentially borked hitbox/hitreg (not convinced it's not people mistaking your usual HSR shenanigans, yet)
DPS firepower meaning to hurt the other guy, you almost can't twist.
Heat. GH warms things up fast.
While decently agile, any halfway decent Oxide/Jenny II can splat em. And Honestly, any Light packing a pair of Flamers can quickly get any KDK, including the feared 3, to shutdown time, unable to muster much return fire. My Spirit Bear and KDK1 both pack flamers specifically because of how easy enemy KDKs are to heatlock..... while I pour SRM or UAC fire into their face.

[Bishop Steiner]

fact is, most people I see complaining about stuff are players who want to park out in the open, go toe to toe with every opponent and don't use twisting, mobility, flanking, etc.... then wonder why they see the same result (getting smoked) so often.

I'd love to see nothing more than a sane,long rational look at KDKs once the Queues are down to a couple per side, etc, but that's not how the kneejerk Cryhards work.

Heck, I have to wonder, since I play against Tier 1s quite a bit, is that if they were so unbelievably OP as McGral would have us beleive, how the other 5-7 KDKs each match aren't logging these Captain Insano scores.....

Most matches I see one real good score among them, a couple decent and a bunch of bad. And I have yet to be in a match where I have seen anyone score 1200 or above in one, so I'm going to say it's not as easy or common as some are claiming.

[Sjorpha]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

Yes.. Because that's how pgi usually reacts....... They're famous for their even keeled fixes.... Oh wait... My bad, this is PGI we're talking about.

When it comes to messed up hitboxes on release the answer is yes, they hot fixed the hellbringer, they fixed the Black Knight and so on. Their track record here is to release bugged hitboxes and then fix them, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

When it comes to excessive quirks, both positive and negative, the answer is also yes, PGI typically dials them back after a while. They did with the Timber wolf, they did it on a lot of IS mechs this winter that got overquirked in December.

Tell me, since you obviously don't think removal of quirks is the probable nerf for some reason, what kind of incoming non-quirk super nerf are you talking about?

The sensible change to the Kodiak right now is a hit box pass that slims the CT to symmetry with the left side and makes the shoulders arm hitbox up to the missile pod. Then combine this with removing the quirks on the 3.

But instead of pushing for sensible changes lets just go full bittervet and spam the forum with useless superiority complex type sarcasm over an imagined group of whiners that for some reason refuse to show up so we have to inflate their supposed qq with ironic projections or we'd have no one to look down on, and you can't have that on the internet now can you?

Edited by Sjorpha, 23 May 2016 - 03:49 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 23 May 2016 - 03:34 PM, said:

When it comes to messed up hitboxes on release the answer is yes, they hot fixed the hellbringer, they fixed the Black Knight and so on. Their track record here is to release bugged hitboxes and then fix them, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

When it comes to excessive quirks, both positive and negative, the answer is also yes, PGI typically dials them back after a while. They did with the Timber wolf, they did it on a lot of IS mechs this winter that got overquirked in December.

Tell me, since you obviously don't think removal of quirks is the probable nerf for some reason, what kind of incoming non-quirk super nerf are you talking about?

oh, you misread what I am saying, I in point of fact DO feel they will remove the quirks. And probably "for balance" because of the KDK3 QQ, either leave the hitboxes borked, or add negative modifiers to the jam rate, or the like.

Because when it comes to quirks, they are famous for their yoyo effect.... extreme overquirk, to extreme underwquirk to ignored and left in mothballs. The actually well thought out and balanced quirked mechs are the exception, not the rule, in MWO.

Why do you think our Metas and Meta Mechs of Choice, swing so radically?

[Sjorpha]

I actually don't agree that the meta shifts are that radical these days, lately it has been mostly about brawling and ballistic coming back to the top, and that has been a process going on since December so it's not like some kind of sudden shock.

The forums living in the past only to suddenly wake up to realize things have changed may be what makes the shifts seem radical to some.

I also don't think it's very likely to see negative quirks on the Kodiak, my prediction is simple removal or reduction of the quirks, which I think is a good change because they weren't well motivated and the General direction should be to get the game as quirk free as possible. If I turn out wrong and they go overboard with red numbers I'll be the first to protest, but right now I believe I'm doing more to prevent this than you are.

The hitbox pass is less certain for sure, all we can do is argue for it. The hitboxes are more weird and wonky than bad in this case, it's not like the release HBR that was unplayable, but it would be nice to have hitboxes that seem logical.

Edited by Sjorpha, 23 May 2016 - 04:15 PM.

[cazidin]

Maybe, just maybe, the Kodiak will get its hitboxes fixed without losing quirks. The Kodiak will likely lose its quirks in the next pass but not before then.

[1453 R]

Sjorpha, on 23 May 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

I actually don't agree that the meta shifts are that radical these days, lately it has been mostly about brawling and ballistic coming back to the top, and that has been a process going on since December so it's not like some kind of sudden shock.

The forums living in the past only to suddenly wake up to realize things have changed may be what makes the shifts seem radical to some.

I also don't think it's very likely to see negative quirks on the Kodiak, my prediction is simple removal or reduction of the quirks, which I think is a good change because they weren't well motivated and the General direction should be to get the game as quirk free as possible. If I turn out wrong and they go overboard with red numbers I'll be the first to protest, but right now I believe I'm doing more to prevent this than you are.

The hitbox pass is less certain for sure, all we can do is argue for it. The hitboxes are more weird and wonky than bad in this case, it's not like the release HBR that was unplayable, but it would be nice to have hitboxes that seem logical.

The thing that worries me is that the only 'overperforming' Kodiak, if anything can be called such, is the KDK-3. Yeah, the mega-monster Dakka Grizzly will likely lose some of its agility quirks, but the game is also enormously deficient in terms of close-range bruisers on the heavier end. The stated goal for the Kodiak, during a recent(ish?) stream of theirs, was for the Kodiak to be a more-offensive Clan Atlas - something that had a ton if offensive potential but which didn't tank damage as well as the Atlas, with its fifteen tons of free armor/structure, can.

I would honestly say mission accomplished. If you haven't flown the Spirit Bear, it is fantastic. You feel the fragility, trust me - dat CT, bruh - but when you can keep a handle on your engagements and avoid being ganged up on, the Spirit Bear is one of the most outright entertaining machines I've driven in a long time - and I'm the kind of guy who tends to be most comfortable right around 120 klicks and 40-ish tons.

It really does feel like the Victor release - we finally have a megafatbro that can actually hang in the scrum without two hundred extra points of durability...and yet everyone wants to dequirk the hell out of it because the KDK-3 is doing its best impression of PedoBear pitching at a Little League game. Perhaps if people stopped STANDING IN FRONT OF IT LIKE NIMROIDS, they'd have an easier time with it...but alas, looks like we're on course for the VTR treatment again.

Man I miss some of the games I used to have in my Victors...I should rig up that ol' VTR SImulator Timber Wolf again and go have some fun, mebbe. Certainly won't be able to do it in the Spirit Bear much longer.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 23 May 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

The thing that worries me is that the only 'overperforming' Kodiak, if anything can be called such, is the KDK-3. Yeah, the mega-monster Dakka Grizzly will likely lose some of its agility quirks, but the game is also enormously deficient in terms of close-range bruisers on the heavier end. The stated goal for the Kodiak, during a recent(ish?) stream of theirs, was for the Kodiak to be a more-offensive Clan Atlas - something that had a ton if offensive potential but which didn't tank damage as well as the Atlas, with its fifteen tons of free armor/structure, can.

I would honestly say mission accomplished. If you haven't flown the Spirit Bear, it is fantastic. You feel the fragility, trust me - dat CT, bruh - but when you can keep a handle on your engagements and avoid being ganged up on, the Spirit Bear is one of the most outright entertaining machines I've driven in a long time - and I'm the kind of guy who tends to be most comfortable right around 120 klicks and 40-ish tons.

It really does feel like the Victor release - we finally have a megafatbro that can actually hang in the scrum without two hundred extra points of durability...and yet everyone wants to dequirk the hell out of it because the KDK-3 is doing its best impression of PedoBear pitching at a Little League game. Perhaps if people stopped STANDING IN FRONT OF IT LIKE NIMROIDS, they'd have an easier time with it...but alas, looks like we're on course for the VTR treatment again.

Man I miss some of the games I used to have in my Victors...I should rig up that ol' VTR SImulator Timber Wolf again and go have some fun, mebbe. Certainly won't be able to do it in the Spirit Bear much longer.

Amen brother, amen.

Thanks for keeping it real.

[Reza Malin]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

Chicken Littles wont stop until the KDK3 is nerfed into obscurity, so since we know it's going to happen, can we just get it done with?

And since we know PGI can't do anything without going to extremes, just get ready for it to be worthless.

My only real question is after the 3 falls, which poor KDK will earn the ire of the Butthurt masses next? I only ask, because I'd like to know before spending time, money, effort, etc, mastering versions that are just going to get Highlander'd.

I am guessing the next target of the OP whinefest will be the Spirit Bear, which of course will also get the inevitable "P2W" tag?

Ok drama mongering over?

The KDK-3 is slightly OP, its simple as that. It needs a nerf. I don't care how they do it, but the fun is over i am afraid, as with any new OP release.

The only time they do less than 700 dmg, is when they dont have the obligatory 4 x UAC10 build, which is quite frankly ridiculous on that mech if anyone can shoot even half decently.

And i am talking even matches where their team loses, they still manage 500-700 dmg.....when the next closest i see is consistently much less.

I dont care about "huge CT hitbox" or any other clan loving ******** i have seen about this, lots of mechs have huge CT's but can't come close to matching the toe to toe firepower of the KDK-3. No, the UAC5 mauler does not come close either, i heard some fruitcakes trying that one too.

it needs a nerf. People can argue the noble cause that "clans have better tech" and the spirit of battletech and all that weird fanboy jazz all they like, but just be happy that the other KDK chassis are still better than average, and take solace in that instead.

There is lore, then there is ridiculous lore, and allowing the KDK-3 to live as is, unmolested, is ridiculous.

Edited by Fade Akira, 23 May 2016 - 05:15 PM.

[M T]

It has to become either as bad or as good as the Dire Wolf, however you want to look at it.

That's balance

[Reza Malin]

1453 R, on 23 May 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

I would honestly say mission accomplished. If you haven't flown the Spirit Bear, it is fantastic. You feel the fragility, trust me - dat CT, bruh - but when you can keep a handle on your engagements and avoid being ganged up on, the Spirit Bear is one of the most outright entertaining machines I've driven in a long time - and I'm the kind of guy who tends to be most comfortable right around 120 klicks and 40-ish tons.

This all sounds great mate, but have you thought the reason you like it so much is that it is OP?

Fragility??? Lol???? Is that a joke?

Just like the launch of the clans. Everyone loved it! Reason being, it was OP as ****.

Edited by Fade Akira, 23 May 2016 - 05:21 PM.

[Dudeman3k]

not gunna lie, overwatch is amazing.

KDK has killed my intrest for this game. It's fun for you KDK pilots becuase it is way too good. as In, it dwarfs the purpose of many many many other mechs. Im sure its fun as hell melting your opponents, but that isn't exactly the point, and my HBKIIC knows why.

why does the KDK have quirks when the IIC dont? im just in awe with this one.

whatever, you can keep the KDK as is in all honesty, I havent payed in a good while so I dont really care what PGI does to this abysmal title.

[GurpGork]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

Chicken Littles wont stop until the KDK3 is nerfed into obscurity, so since we know it's going to happen, can we just get it done with?

And since we know PGI can't do anything without going to extremes, just get ready for it to be worthless.

My only real question is after the 3 falls, which poor KDK will earn the ire of the Butthurt masses next? I only ask, because I'd like to know before spending time, money, effort, etc, mastering versions that are just going to get Highlander'd.

I am guessing the next target of the OP whinefest will be the Spirit Bear, which of course will also get the inevitable "P2W" tag?

Your meaning seems to be ... "the mech doesn't deserve a nerf".

However, just quickly browsing the leaderboards from the event over the weekend. We see the kdk3 had top pilot match scores that were on average over 1,000 points higher than the other variants !!!

Top pilots were pushing the other variants to event scores in the 3500 to 4000 range. However, boom, kdk3 top pilots pushed it all the way to 5100+. And the top 50 players for kdk3, equally matched if not beat most of the top 5 scores for all the other variants ?!?

So take a reality check, and let that sink in.

I personally am not advocating either way. I was just taking the time to look at the tourney scores, and that simple analysis was screaming at me. That doesn't mean anything ?

[1453 R]

Fade Akira, on 23 May 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

This all sounds great mate, but have you thought the reason you like it so much is that it is OP?

Fragility??? Lol???? Is that a joke?

Just like the launch of the clans. Everyone loved it! Reason being, it was OP as ****.

Actually, I tend to perform much more consistently in my Cauldron-Born than my Spirit Bear. Sure, I've had my 900-damage tears where everything goes right, but I don't know if you've noticed that the Kodiak is about this size:




As a buddy of mine so succinctly put: "It's HUGE! Even when you miss it, you still hit it!"

Yes, the fragility is real. So is the firepower, and to be fair the KDK-3 probably didn't need agility quirks. But a number of the others actually sorta kinna need all the help they can get. The Spirit Bear I love so much? It has seven hardpoints. That hasn't been acceptable on (most) assault 'Mechs since 2014. The KDK-1 and KDK-5 are so overblessed with energy hardpoints that they can't actually use them all - g'head, try and make an effective build with 9 or 11E that doesn't melt. Direstars, while hilarious, don't count. The KDK-2 is a hot mess that sacrifices half its usable weapons for Class I jump jets that do it no good whatsoever, and the KDK-4 only halfway works because it was blessed with a second ballistic hardpoint.

Most of the Kodiaks? In fact, every Kodiak except the Spirit Bear, including the oh-so-busted KDK-3? I would take one of my Warhawks over those suckers pretty much whenever. Sure, the Warhawk has less raw killaging potential, but frankly it has enough, it moves better than any non-cXL400 Kodiak (i.e. any non-Spirit Bear), and even if it's horribly oversized the Warhawk is still noticeably more durable than a poorly-run KDK.

Yes - by all means, remove the agility quirks from the one variant that can actually match a Whale for shooting power. There's a reason Whales are Whales. But the rest of them really don't need to be made suck simply because some folks are mad that they can't facetank three of the things at once in a Centurion.

It weighs a hundred tons. It's going to beat you if you derptank it. Don't do that - it doesn't work on Atlases, it doesn't work on Whales, there's no damn reason it should work on Kodiaks.

GurpGork, on 23 May 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

...
However, just quickly browsing the leaderboards from the event over the weekend. We see the kdk3 had top pilot match scores that were on average over 1,000 points higher than the other variants !!!
...

Remember - there's, like, twelve Kodiaks in every match. There's a lot more metal to kill, more damage to be scored, and just generally more points to be had. Yeah, comparatively the KDK-3 is still doing better, but keep the overinflated top-heavy nature of the event weekend in mind.

Edited by 1453 R, 23 May 2016 - 05:45 PM.

[Reza Malin]

Dudeman3k, on 23 May 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

not gunna lie, overwatch is amazing.

KDK has killed my intrest for this game. It's fun for you KDK pilots becuase it is way too good. as In, it dwarfs the purpose of many many many other mechs. Im sure its fun as hell melting your opponents, but that isn't exactly the point, and my HBKIIC knows why.

why does the KDK have quirks when the IIC dont? im just in awe with this one.

whatever, you can keep the KDK as is in all honesty, I havent payed in a good while so I dont really care what PGI does to this abysmal title.

Aaaaaaand, this sums up the dark underbelly of the kodiak release.

All fun for people using them, as with when clans first launched and crushed the IS for the most part, for weeks on end.

However, people unwilling or unable to buy them, causes discord and resentment because they are OP and seeing 5 or 6 kodiaks against you every match, or trying to attacka aposition defended by 4 kodiaks in CW, quickly gets old....

[Bishop Steiner]

Fade Akira, on 23 May 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

Aaaaaaand, this sums up the dark underbelly of the kodiak release.

All fun for people using them, as with when clans first launched and crushed the IS for the most part, for weeks on end.

However, people unwilling or unable to buy them, causes discord and resentment because they are OP and seeing 5 or 6 kodiaks against you every match, or trying to attacka aposition defended by 4 kodiaks in CW, quickly gets old....

can't help it if you try to win stare downs on a mech easily defeated with a bare modicum of tactics. But hey, Overwatch is out...go enjoy!

[Reza Malin]

1453 R, on 23 May 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

Actually, I tend to perform much more consistently in my Cauldron-Born than my Spirit Bear. Sure, I've had my 900-damage tears where everything goes right, but I don't know if you've noticed that the Kodiak is about this size:




As a buddy of mine so succinctly put: "It's HUGE! Even when you miss it, you still hit it!"

Yes, the fragility is real. So is the firepower, and to be fair the KDK-3 probably didn't need agility quirks. But a number of the others actually sorta kinna need all the help they can get. The Spirit Bear I love so much? It has seven hardpoints. That hasn't been acceptable on (most) assault 'Mechs since 2014. The KDK-1 and KDK-5 are so overblessed with energy hardpoints that they can't actually use them all - g'head, try and make an effective build with 9 or 11E that doesn't melt. Direstars, while hilarious, don't count. The KDK-2 is a hot mess that sacrifices half its usable weapons for Class I jump jets that do it no good whatsoever, and the KDK-4 only halfway works because it was blessed with a second ballistic hardpoint.

Most of the Kodiaks? In fact, every Kodiak except the Spirit Bear, including the oh-so-busted KDK-3? I would take one of my Warhawks over those suckers pretty much whenever. Sure, the Warhawk has less raw killaging potential, but frankly it has enough, it moves better than any non-cXL400 Kodiak (i.e. any non-Spirit Bear), and even if it's horribly oversized the Warhawk is still noticeably more durable than a poorly-run KDK.

Yes - by all means, remove the agility quirks from the one variant that can actually match a Whale for shooting power. There's a reason Whales are Whales. But the rest of them really don't need to be made suck simply because some folks are mad that they can't facetank three of the things at once in a Centurion.

It weighs a hundred tons. It's going to beat you if you derptank it. Don't do that - it doesn't work on Atlases, it doesn't work on Whales, there's no damn reason it should work on Kodiaks.

Mate, you need to lay of the *******.

I get you like your new mech, but you need a reality check.

Please stop talking about facetanking, like everyone that slates the precious kodiak hasn't been playing this game for 3 years. I have. Its OP mate, facetanking isn't the issue, it literally deals death wherever you encounter it. Someone has to facetank it, you know that right, it is pretty ******* quick for a 100 ton assault mech with 4 UAC 10s. You cant just keep avoiding it, or 2 of them, or 5 of them as we so often see.

Not only that, i only said the KDK-3 needs a nerf. Never mentioned nerfing the others.

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

can't help it if you try to win stare downs on a mech easily defeated with a bare modicum of tactics. But hey, Overwatch is out...go enjoy!

Aaaand, the usual bishop condescension comes out when someone doesn't agree.

Bare modicum of tactics? Well, that sounds absolutely great on the forums mate, sadly doesn't wash in pug matches or anything outside a 12 man unit drop.

Please, cut the crap.

[GurpGork]

1453 R, on 23 May 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

Remember - there's, like, twelve Kodiaks in every match. There's a lot more metal to kill, more damage to be scored, and just generally more points to be had. Yeah, comparatively the KDK-3 is still doing better, but keep the overinflated top-heavy nature of the event weekend in mind.

But all those other kdk's are in the same match as the 3's, which means they all have the same potential for scoring. And in the end it's the 3 that is literally murdering the scores on the other variants.