22 replies to this topic

[northpow]

What is the ratio between damage and armor? It isn't really 1 damage = 1 armor plate, is it? That is what I found by googling but honestly I have seen mechs take a LOT more damage than that before going down.

I know that there are internals, and I know that not all hits are against the same part of the mech, but still, I would be surprised.

If 1 damage = 1 armor plate then my new Kodiak with dual LBX-20's should be able to kill medium mechs with a couple of hits, but I've never seen anything quite so dramatic.

[Digital_Angel]

Yes 1 armor = 1 damage.

Even a mech with 0 armor has internal structure on all components though. Quirks may also add armor or structure values to various components of the mech without you adding armor in the mech lab.

Larger mechs have more structure per component unless there are specific quirks that change the value on a mech.

A Locust 1E (20 tons), for example, has 12 structure in the CT and 10 in each side torso. A Cicada 2A (40 tons) has 24 in the CT and 20 structure in each side torso. As you scale all the way up to something like a King Crab (100 tons) your CT has 62 structure and each side torso has 42. Heads generally have 15 structure regardless of the mech.

The values for things like this can be looked up fairly easily from Smurfy http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

[Wintersdark]

LadyDanams, on 23 May 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

Yes 1 armor = 1 damage.

Even a mech with 0 armor has internal structure on all components though. Quirks may also add armor or structure values to various components of the mech without you adding armor in the mech lab.

Larger mechs have more structure per component unless there are specific quirks that change the value on a mech.

A Locust 1E (20 tons), for example, has 12 structure in the CT and 10 in each side torso. A Cicada 2A (40 tons) has 24 in the CT and 20 structure in each side torso. As you scale all the way up to something like a King Crab (100 tons) your CT has 62 structure and each side torso has 42. Heads generally have 15 structure regardless of the mech.

The values for things like this can be looked up fairly easily from Smurfy http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

Smurfy doesn't show structure values, but they're equal (before quirks) to max armor values.

[Jables McBarty]

Wintersdark, on 23 May 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Smurfy doesn't show structure values, but they're equal (before quirks) to max armor values.

Correction: They are equal to half max armor values (Winter is still working with Tabletop rules).

And Smurfy's does show it, in parentheses next to the component name "Right Torso (10hp)".

=\

[Wintersdark]

Jables McBarty, on 23 May 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

Correction: They are equal to half max armor values (Winter is still working with Tabletop rules).

And Smurfy's does show it, in parentheses next to the component name "Right Torso (10hp)".

=\

hah right, my bad. Habit >.<

Also: I never noticed that in Smurfy's. Has it always been there? I've been using it since it's birth, and never saw that.

Thanks for the correction!

[Anachronda]

Wintersdark, on 23 May 2016 - 06:19 PM, said:

hah right, my bad. Habit >.<

Also: I never noticed that in Smurfy's. Has it always been there? I've been using it since it's birth, and never saw that.

Thanks for the correction!

Yup, it's always been there. Just maybe not obvious. I believe it accounts for internal structure quirks as well.

[The Basilisk]

northpow, on 23 May 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

What is the ratio between damage and armor? It isn't really 1 damage = 1 armor plate, is it? That is what I found by googling but honestly I have seen mechs take a LOT more damage than that before going down.

I know that there are internals, and I know that not all hits are against the same part of the mech, but still, I would be surprised.

If 1 damage = 1 armor plate then my new Kodiak with dual LBX-20's should be able to kill medium mechs with a couple of hits, but I've never seen anything quite so dramatic.

- Ratio is 1:1 there are no resistances.

- Hitboxes and hit detection in this game tend to be ......creative

- With LB-X AC20 you selected the exemplary most inefficient weapon ingame when it comes to "I hit what I shoot at"

Ehhhrmmmm....nope....you don't.

LB-X Weapons are basically Battlemech sized shotguns. The larger the weapon, the larger the cone of Fire you are spreadin dmg in. Beeing over 150m away from your target will cause X20 to miss large portions of its slugs by Default when you shoot for smaler mechs.
At +200m you will even partialy miss the largest assaults.
X10 is not as bad it can be usefull at targets up to 300m away.
X5 can actually be pretty snipey when used below 400m you will hit mostly one zone.
Like all series 2 ACs thé X2 is realy realy useless.

So the key is projectile speed, hitscan and spread.
The only weapons largely hitting where you aim them are lazors

Everything other is guessingame and experience.

[Koniving]

Lbx 20 and uac 20 in use.

Some people just need to actually use an lbx.
https://youtu.be/xrAjOaIvFZM
Up to a certain range for certain mechs it is a single ball of death akin to an inner sphere AC/20 round.

Also... very limited range for max damage.
Use within range, full damage.
Use past range... less than full damage.
Use at double range... zero damage.

Wintersdark, on 23 May 2016 - 06:19 PM, said:

hah right, my bad. Habit &gt;.&lt;

Also: I never noticed that in Smurfy's. Has it always been there? I've been using it since it's birth, and never saw that.

Thanks for the correction!

Since late 2014/ early 2015.
Not always.

The Basilisk, on 23 May 2016 - 11:06 PM, said:

- With LB-X AC20 you selected the exemplary most inefficient weapon ingame when it comes to &quot;I hit what I shoot at&quot;

Ehhhrmmmm....nope....you don't.

LB-X Weapons are basically Battlemech sized shotguns. The larger the weapon, the larger the cone of Fire you are spreadin dmg in. Beeing over 150m away from your target will cause X20 to miss large portions of its slugs by Default when you shoot for smaler mechs.
At +200m you will even partialy miss the largest assaults.
X10 is not as bad it can be usefull at targets up to 300m away.
X5 can actually be pretty snipey when used below 400m you will hit mostly one zone.
Like all series 2 ACs thé X2 is realy realy useless..

See video.
Really gotta stop trusting the "been there done that" things said on the internet by "meta" players.

"all CT damage". No HUD.

[Morggo]

Agreed, LBX's are actually really good weapons when played to their strengths (i.e. generally up close/brawling).
I've switched to dual IS lbx10's to great success. Even get kills before I expect (probably the crits?) while blasting away.

...at range... meh, even my love of the lbx admits they spread too much (though the wife and her enforcer quirked for the lbx10 seems to be doing really well at a variety of ranges recently since switching back)

YMMV, but I say if you like the weapon system, learn it and use it

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 23 May 2016 - 11:24 PM, said:

Lbx 20 and uac 20 in use.

Some people just need to actually use an lbx.
https://youtu.be/xrAjOaIvFZM
Up to a certain range for certain mechs it is a single ball of death akin to an inner sphere AC/20 round.

Also... very limited range for max damage.
Use within range, full damage.
Use past range... less than full damage.
Use at double range... zero damage.

But "range" here is like 50m. And at that very limited range, you still do half the damage you'd have done with a doubletapping UAC20 (or as much as a UAC20 that jammed on it's doubletap). Not more - it's important to understand that in the best case scenario, a LBX20 is still only killing as fast as a UAC20 not doubletapping... And it's bigger, to boot.

See:


It still does 20 damage, so it will kill things, but it's wholly worse than a UAC20. Really terribly worse. Awfully so. Use it, sure - it sounds, as a wise man once said, like Chuck Norris dropkicking a hole through a star - and it can certainly kill things... But understand it's pretty terrible compared to the smaller alternative.

[Leone]

Only clan uac 20s can be spread by a good torso twist. And have ghost heat if you run more'n one. Oh and an extra heat normally as well.

I've run em both. They both have their uses.

~Leone.

[Wintersdark]

Leone, on 24 May 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Only clan uac 20s can be spread by a good torso twist. And have ghost heat if you run more'n one. Oh and an extra heat normally as well.

I've run em both. They both have their uses.

~Leone.

The LBX will spread even if he's standing still, though. That thing has a HUGE spread. And requires SO MANY more shots to kill anything.

Note how many shots to kill even at 100m. At 200, 3t of ammo couldn't bring an AS7 down.

If you're so close that you can get all the pellets to one torso location (say, 50-75m) you're not missing much or spreading much with a UAC20. The burst is about the same as a small pulse laser, and projectile speed at those distances is irrelevant.

[Wintersdark]

It's bad. You can run it and kill stuff, certainly, and you can get just fine scores with it, but that doesn't make it less bad. And it's bad purely because it's roughly equal only at extremely (like 50m) close range, and is dramatically worse everywhere else.

It's still 20 damage, though. It's not like that tickles. But it's a lot less than 40, and it spreads HORRIBLY badly. See: 200m, 3t of ammo all fired CT still not killing an Atlas; even at 100m, where you'd think it should be good, close and against a massive CT, it STILL takes more shots to kill.

And all of that is completely ignoring the UAC20's ability to put 40 damage into your target in the time the LBX does 20.

[Koniving]

Wintersdark, on 24 May 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

But "range" here is like 50m. And at that very limited range, you still do half the damage you'd have done with a doubletapping UAC20 (or as much as a UAC20 that jammed on it's doubletap). Not more - it's important to understand that in the best case scenario, a LBX20 is still only killing as fast as a UAC20 not doubletapping... And it's bigger, to boot.

See:


It still does 20 damage, so it will kill things, but it's wholly worse than a UAC20. Really terribly worse. Awfully so. Use it, sure - it sounds, as a wise man once said, like Chuck Norris dropkicking a hole through a star - and it can certainly kill things... But understand it's pretty terrible compared to the smaller alternative.

Different mech.
As I said, the way it behaves -- without quirks-- is different for every mech.
In the video I showed, it is one singular ball up until just over 250 meters.

Hellbringers get deathballs.

Every. Single. Mech. has different results. At one point it was said (by Paul, in early 2015 / very late 2014) that there are over 45 spread patterns just for the IS LBX-10, and at the time there were about 48 mech variants that could mount an LBX.
Just food for thought.

Also I had one ton of ammo each; there's no ammo to double tap with.

You can watch each hit with the LBX 20, it's a single ball of death each time.
The one time it spread was after I turned on the hud and shot something about 270 meters away where it only just began spreading when showing Lordred (the Shadowhawk) about the LBX 20 deathball.
Lastly, I missed with shots from the UAC/20; every LBX-20 round hit center torso.

Now, I haven't had any luck finding any other LBX-20 that so perfectly deathballs. It is absolutely horrific on the Dire Wolf. But the point is it can be done and it makes it worth really investigating rather than using a single mech, one time, and going "this gun sucks." Especially since even before quirks what mech you put it on would change how it works. The game is loaded with some really contrived hidden mechanics. Take Residual Heat (formerly called Heat Retainment). 1 ML. 10 SHS. 2 times every 10 seconds. Still overheats.

Edited by Koniving, 24 May 2016 - 11:30 AM.

[4ries]

My 0.2 c-bills...

I recently have used an urbanmech with the lbx10 shotgun and I found allthough I hit most of my targets that I did only superficial damage.
That was on canyon network where you are either far away firing ppc's and large lasers at eachother (also lrm's) OR you are at knife fighting range. I was at close range about 300 meters from my target and my lbx10 hit but spread all that damage all over one side of that mech turning him from green to yellow all over but not a single part...
Right there and then I said screw lbx10. Lousy weapons... In my opinion that is.
I prefer the ac10 over the lbx10. And I dont like going to 100 meters just to use that weapon to its fullest; because I am still a goddamn urbanmech... If they sneeze at you, your armor is gone, they fart and you're dead. Thats the urbanmech for you.
But I still love the little buggers.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 24 May 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Different mech.
As I said, the way it behaves -- without quirks-- is different for every mech.
In the video I showed, it is one singular ball up until just over 250 meters.

Hellbringers get deathballs.

Every. Single. Mech. has different results. At one point it was said (by Paul, in early 2015 / very late 2014) that there are over 45 spread patterns just for the IS LBX-10, and at the time there were about 48 mech variants that could mount an LBX.
Just food for thought.

Also I had one ton of ammo each; there's no ammo to double tap with.

You can watch each hit with the LBX 20, it's a single ball of death each time.
The one time it spread was after I turned on the hud and shot something about 270 meters away where it only just began spreading.

Interesting. I'm going to test that tonight with a Hellbringer then.

As the spread amount is in the XML files, and pattern seems random (its not repeated with sequential shots) one must do due diligence in testing. Of course, there are spread quirk mechs, but iirc the Hellbringer isn't one of them.

[Koniving]

Wintersdark, on 24 May 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

Interesting. I'm going to test that tonight with a Hellbringer then.

As the spread amount is in the XML files, and pattern seems random (its not repeated with sequential shots) one must do due diligence in testing. Of course, there are spread quirk mechs, but iirc the Hellbringer isn't one of them.

Indeed. As each mech is said to have access to 4-6 patterns, that means there's about 10x (9x?) more patterns than each mech has access to.

Heat retainment was discovered in 2014 and remarked on exactly once by Paul or Timothy (not sure now) (it was in regards to flamers), this was during no quirks and 1-to-1 single heatsinks, so firing rate may have to be stepped up to the standard firing rate of 3x per 9 seconds (1 second beam + 3 second recharge + 1 second beam + 3 second recharge + 1 second beam)... easier to say 2x per 8 to test/prove now. Flamers were the more obvious proof where a single flamer could overheat you (at the time when it made 0.7 units of heat) on a mech with 26 DHS in about a minute to two minutes (and yet two flamers or even 6 flamers chain fired could fire eternally; proving that heat retainment had something to do with firing the weapon repeatedly with little to no rest). But it was also found in medium lasers (but not smalls), ER large Lasers (but not regulars) and while I haven't tested it, there were claims that it happens in SRM-6s (but not 4s or 2s)..

Retainment is the name the developer referring to it gave it. I'm calling it Residual Heat.

Edited by Koniving, 24 May 2016 - 11:48 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 24 May 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Different mech.
As I said, the way it behaves -- without quirks-- is different for every mech.
In the video I showed, it is one singular ball up until just over 250 meters.

Hellbringers get deathballs.

Every. Single. Mech. has different results. At one point it was said (by Paul, in early 2015 / very late 2014) that there are over 45 spread patterns just for the IS LBX-10, and at the time there were about 48 mech variants that could mount an LBX.
Just food for thought.

Also I had one ton of ammo each; there's no ammo to double tap with.

You can watch each hit with the LBX 20, it's a single ball of death each time.
The one time it spread was after I turned on the hud and shot something about 270 meters away where it only just began spreading when showing Lordred (the Shadowhawk) about the LBX 20 deathball.
Lastly, I missed with shots from the UAC/20; every LBX-20 round hit center torso.

Now, I haven't had any luck finding any other LBX-20 that so perfectly deathballs. It is absolutely horrific on the Dire Wolf. But the point is it can be done and it makes it worth really investigating rather than using a single mech, one time, and going "this gun sucks." Especially since even before quirks what mech you put it on would change how it works. The game is loaded with some really contrived hidden mechanics. Take Residual Heat (formerly called Heat Retainment). 1 ML. 10 SHS. 2 times every 10 seconds. Still overheats.

Took a couple quick videos, have to go to work.

Can confirm that LBX20 spread on the Hellbringer is WAY WAY tighter than on the Direwolf, even though neither have -Spread quirks.

I'm going to have to investigate this much closer later, as it's going to take some time and I need to leave for work in 15 minutes.

However, this could go to explain some things about people's experience.

Did two HBR vs. AS7 @ 200m tests exactly like the DWF video above.

In both tests, the HBR destroyed the AS7 with LBX20 alone in 16 shots, and only damaged the torsos, not the legs, despite aiming (once comparing the resultant videos) slightly lower which, given the same spread, would have resulted in MORE leg damage.

This is very interesting, and I'm extremely glad you pointed it out. I'll be making a dedicated thread investigating it.

[Koniving]

Heh. You're welcome.

I've known about the LBX situation since 2013.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 24 May 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

Heh. You're welcome.

I've known about the LBX situation since 2013.

I wish I'd known then, that's totally the sort of thing I love looking in to.

I've done MANY LBX videos exploring how they work, but tended to use the same mechs because generally they were easier to test with. This has opened a huge can of worms >.<