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Light Mechs In The Wild


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#1 topgun505

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:03 PM

While I play all weight classes I tend to play lights the most.

Lights are supposed to be a viable weight class. And ... indeed ... they certainly are right now. I think in regards to one or two mechs maybe too much so (I'm looking at you Oxide, and Jenner IIC-O)

But that's just the problem. That's ALL I see these days is 3 light mech chassis.

Oxide
Jenner IIC-O
Artic Cheetah.

That's it. Maybe in FW for scouting I will occasionally see a COM or LCT but I expect the ONLY reason you see them is due to their 170 kph speed.

I've been playing since closed beta and I miss the non-hero IS Jenner and other chassis as well. Now? I just can't justify taking them. There is no reason to.

I'm not suggesting a nerf to the dynamic duo (though I would not be surprised nor dismayed if that did happen at some point). What I'm looking for here is helpful ideas on how to:

-Make other light mech chassis viable to the point where you actually see them more than once in a blue moon.

-But, at the same time, do not make another mech(s) suddenly rabid-good and the meta simply shifts to that mech and all others once again fall to the wayside.

Thoughts?

#2 STEF_

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:10 PM

View Posttopgun505, on 27 May 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

While I play all weight classes I tend to play lights the most.

Lights are supposed to be a viable weight class. And ... indeed ... they certainly are right now. I think in regards to one or two mechs maybe too much so (I'm looking at you Oxide, and Jenner IIC-O)

But that's just the problem. That's ALL I see these days is 3 light mech chassis.

Oxide
Jenner IIC-O
Artic Cheetah.

That's it. Maybe in FW for scouting I will occasionally see a COM or LCT but I expect the ONLY reason you see them is due to their 170 kph speed.

I've been playing since closed beta and I miss the non-hero IS Jenner and other chassis as well. Now? I just can't justify taking them. There is no reason to.

I'm not suggesting a nerf to the dynamic duo (though I would not be surprised nor dismayed if that did happen at some point). What I'm looking for here is helpful ideas on how to:

-Make other light mech chassis viable to the point where you actually see them more than once in a blue moon.

-But, at the same time, do not make another mech(s) suddenly rabid-good and the meta simply shifts to that mech and all others once again fall to the wayside.

Thoughts?


Being a light pilot, I can say... yes, many lights need love.

Those you mentioned are top tier, tho. I would add the FS9, it's still good enough.
Then there are 2-3 other fun/interesting mechs ....but all the rest..... needs love.

#3 Mole

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:11 PM

I dunno man. Whatever you do to light 'mechs there are always going to be a couple that just work better than all the others. I'm a light pilot as well and every single one of my light 'mechs receives regular play and I do very well in them. And I own and have mastered every light chassis in the game. People are bringing their Oxides and their Jenner IICs and their Arctic Cheetahs because they are just the best that the weight class has to offer right now, not because the other lights are bad. Any change I can think of to make would only accomplish shifting the current light 'mech meta to another chassis and then that's all you'd ever see. No matter what kind of balance change is implemented there will always be one or two things that do it better than all the other things.

#4 topgun505

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:25 PM

I know Mole. That's the rub.

Maybe make a two-tier approach. By that I mean ... some mechs perform well in combat ... but make others do really well in some other aspect. Maybe all COMs get a +20% to c-bill earnings. Or maybe some IS light chassis get +50% sensor range to help them scout/gather intel better. Or you could do subtle nerfs that don't impact gameplay at all ... like give the Oxide a -20% cbills earnings ... something that doesn't touch its combat ability ... but nevertheless makes it not as desirable to take for other reasons. (These aren't real suggestions ... just making a point).

#5 TercieI

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:25 PM

Aside from the SRM bombers most lights need some help. But I still see and run most chassis. WLF, FS9, LCT-1E, SDR-5K, all very workable.

#6 Mole

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:30 PM

View Posttopgun505, on 27 May 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

I know Mole. That's the rub.

Maybe make a two-tier approach. By that I mean ... some mechs perform well in combat ... but make others do really well in some other aspect. Maybe all COMs get a +20% to c-bill earnings. Or maybe some IS light chassis get +50% sensor range to help them scout/gather intel better. Or you could do subtle nerfs that don't impact gameplay at all ... like give the Oxide a -20% cbills earnings ... something that doesn't touch its combat ability ... but nevertheless makes it not as desirable to take for other reasons. (These aren't real suggestions ... just making a point).

This thread could be closed if PGI would implement some manner of role warfare instead of making anything that's not an unstoppable killing machine not worth taking. I mean sure you get rewards for scouting and such, but they are absolutely meager. The only way to make real points in this game is to do damage. Which is an awful approach to a game like this. I'm also pretty salty that I don't get rewarded for efficient kills where I blow out someone's CT or cockpit while leaving other components mostly untouched but I get TONS of XP and CBills if I am really sloppy and take off a bunch of their other components before finally putting them down. That's now how it should work.

#7 dario03

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:53 PM

Well the easy way would be more quirks on the other lights.
Or JJ buffs could help. JJ buffs wouldn't help the Oxide, would only some what help the main IIc builds, though they would be big for the Cheetah. But when I say JJ buffs I'm not so much talking about the actual jump part. I would probably buff that a bit since I find it odd that 0.5t JJs propel 55t mechs more than 30t mechs.
But the main things would be less fall damage (again IIRC mediums take less fall damage percentage than lights). Don't remove it fully, just raise the speed to start taking damage and maybe lower the amount of damage.
And remove or reduce the JJ affect on heat, currently heat doesn't go down when jumping like it used to. They changed it a couple of years ago, mostly to stop poptarting. But to me it never made sense for lights since I don't really recall poptarting lights being a big problem. So change it from 100% reduction in heatloss rate to some lower percentage, maybe make it class based.

#8 Mole

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:58 PM

View Postdario03, on 27 May 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

Well the easy way would be more quirks on the other lights.
Or JJ buffs could help. JJ buffs wouldn't help the Oxide, would only some what help the main IIc builds, though they would be big for the Cheetah. But when I say JJ buffs I'm not so much talking about the actual jump part. I would probably buff that a bit since I find it odd that 0.5t JJs propel 55t mechs more than 30t mechs.
But the main things would be less fall damage (again IIRC mediums take less fall damage percentage than lights). Don't remove it fully, just raise the speed to start taking damage and maybe lower the amount of damage.
And remove or reduce the JJ affect on heat, currently heat doesn't go down when jumping like it used to. They changed it a couple of years ago, mostly to stop poptarting. But to me it never made sense for lights since I don't really recall poptarting lights being a big problem. So change it from 100% reduction in heatloss rate to some lower percentage, maybe make it class based.
They fixed poptarting all wrong. I'm glad to see it go, but they did it all wrong. You know how your aim goes all over the place if you fire your weapons while firing your jumpjets? All they needed to do was take that mechanic and make it apply to any time you are in the air instead of your aim stabilizing immediately as you let off your jump button and allow yourself to start falling. That right there, poptarting is now ineffective and jumpjets can still actually make a 'mech fly instead of the stupid friggin' hoverjets that we have now.

#9 Cupid and Psyche _

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 01:01 PM

I'm a light pilot also. People tend to pilot the 3 you listed because they reap the most c-bill rewards and highest scores. To a certain level, lights tend to get lower damage (like the Locust, Spider, Mist Lynx...), but they can still be effective - just in a different way.

Also, the 3 you mentioned are the ones that I and many others play in comp drops.

The issue, then, is not that the other chassis are not viable, but that players gravitate towards chassis that give them a higher score and damage count.

#10 dario03

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 01:10 PM

Oh and get rid of the 40kph speed limit when legged. All mechs should move at the same percentage of top speed when legged. Either the current 50%, or lower that for all mechs. 50% wouldn't be a huge help to lights since you would still be screwed if legged but you would be slightly less screwed. And lowering all mechs percetage wouldn't directly help lights but bigger mechs might start getting legged more often so they won't be able to skip leg day.

#11 mailin

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 01:12 PM

I've never been much of a fan of buffs to achieve balance. That's how we got into this mess of power creep and low TTK that others talk about. Instead I would like to see some small nerfs to the top tier mechs to make them a little bit more fairly matched against non top tier lights. Really all PGI needs to do is very, very small nerfs to things like structure and eventually the number of some mechs will decline.

Edited by mailin, 27 May 2016 - 01:13 PM.


#12 Moldur

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 01:18 PM

View Posttopgun505, on 27 May 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

-But, at the same time, do not make another mech(s) suddenly rabid-good and the meta simply shifts to that mech and all others once again fall to the wayside.

Thoughts?


Things that are different are inherently not equal. PGI tries (and sometimes fails) to even the playing field with quirks and what not, but really unless everything is the same. Really the same. Some things will be better than others, whether it be because of something as intrinsic as the shape of the mech and its hitboxes.

A few chassis barely edging out the others is all it takes for everything else to "fall to the wayside." You list them as two separate situations, but I argue that they are coexistent. It is not like people are not piloting any other lights. Spiders, Locusts, and Ravens are still running around. They are just not the predominant light. The recent influx of Oxides must also be taken into account.

#13 dario03

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 01:33 PM

View PostMole, on 27 May 2016 - 12:58 PM, said:

They fixed poptarting all wrong. I'm glad to see it go, but they did it all wrong. You know how your aim goes all over the place if you fire your weapons while firing your jumpjets? All they needed to do was take that mechanic and make it apply to any time you are in the air instead of your aim stabilizing immediately as you let off your jump button and allow yourself to start falling. That right there, poptarting is now ineffective and jumpjets can still actually make a 'mech fly instead of the stupid friggin' hoverjets that we have now.


Theres a couple of problems there though.
- That would nerf jump brawling which is pretty big for the lights that the OP was wanting to buff. I shoot while falling in my lights all the time.
-That kills poptarting entirely. And the only real problem with poptarting was that it was the be all end all for a while. Everybody did it because it was so dominate, especially back in the only 1jj needed, no ghost heat, no charge time, synced speeds on 3ppc Gauss Highlander days. But really after all the changes poptarting wasn't the end all be all about 2 years ago when they gave it the final nerf that put it in the ground. There were other viable tactics, and now there should be even more.

#14 cazidin

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 02:37 PM

You'd see more Urbanmechs on the field but their best pilots fear too easily overwhelming the enemy with such an incredibly powerful mech. It'd be neither fair or fun for them!

#15 Nightmare1

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 05:21 PM

I see a goodly amount of Ravens, Wolfhounds, and Locusts still. Urbies aren't exactly rare either.

#16 Mole

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 06:24 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 27 May 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

I see a goodly amount of Ravens, Wolfhounds, and Locusts still. Urbies aren't exactly rare either.

I think the OP must be playing FW or something. I see all shapes and sizes of light 'mechs in quick play, which is where I spend most of my time. Quick play doesn't really matter, so people bring whatever. But people are bringing their best 'mechs into FW matches. So obviously you're only ever gonna see things like Jenner IICs, Arctic Cheetahs, Oxides, and there are probably still some Firestarters out there too. They're just the best lights available right now.

#17 Fang01

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 10:32 PM

Finigan and I were running the Anasasi and 5V tonight to decent effect. If you aren't seeing other lights you just may not be paying attention

#18 DarthHias

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 11:45 PM

My Locusts, Spiders, Adders all work decent enough. The Adder is a good example of good buffs. Unlocking the flamer and decent quirks made it better without being OP.
However too many players crying "LIGHTS OP" running around.

#19 Weeny Machine

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 12:43 AM

Lights suffer from quite some problems:

1. Agility of heavies and assaults
It is hard to stay out of their firing arc for a meaningful time. A smart heavy or assault pilot will put his backside to an obstacle anyway

2. Huge alphas
If you take an unlucky broadside your ST, leg or whatever is gone. My Wolfhound was literally one-shotted when I didn't see an assault which was in ECM cover

3. Close-range weaponry
With most lights you need to get quite close


You may argue "but you have a lag shield" etc. Again: a light carries not much armour and even glancing blows of those broadsides can rip all the armour of a limb.

What I do not get is: why are heavy and assault player pissed when they get killed by a light but it is totally acceptable for them to be able to one-shot a light mech if it is unlucky/not careful

Currently running a light without Radar Derp and/or ECM is not such a great experience because you need twice as hard as in heavier mechs imo.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 28 May 2016 - 12:44 AM.


#20 Narcissistic Martyr

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 02:43 PM

I run my other jenners, jenner IICs, fire starters, wolfhounds, and AC20 Ravens still. However, at the moment due to the high numbers in assault queue I'm running my warhammers and marauders mostly.

In FW... I typically bring a STD engine worlfhound [to eat up hits for my team] or an ECM raven but I'm weird.

Edited by Narcissistic Martyr, 28 May 2016 - 02:45 PM.






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