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Why Is Pilots Not Able To Understand How To Fight Clans?


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#1 maniacos

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 04:27 AM

When going solo in fraction play against clans I see the same, IS pilots die trading long range with clans where clan clearly have the greater advantage. They don't organize push to brawl and they dont focus fire, they waste their best firepower firing large pulse or med lasers over ranges where clans make almost double as much damage. When you have a team that knows how to push, you most certainly win that match.

The rule of thumb is simple DO NOT WASTE YOUR FIREPOWER IN LONG RANGE FIGHTS.

#2 Scandisk

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 04:36 AM

The funny thing?

When you play as Clan, you always hear all of this or read this in the chat. Again and again.

"Don't trade in long range vs IS"Posted Image

#3 maniacos

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 05:05 AM

Funny that all what clans do is firing long range, a clan medium laser makes almost the opt range of a IS large laser. They pop like balloons when you push them.

Edited by maniacos, 28 May 2016 - 05:10 AM.


#4 Delta1262 Scorch

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 05:19 AM

And also on the contrary - i often see Clan players or pushing in to the close range when they have that range advantage, just to get themselves in the situation where they got no advantages, and so get slaughtered. Or just group up in one spot behind the cliff or corner with some 200-300m range from the enemy and stand there doing nothing or trading shots, and wait till IS players will push out and kill them all.
Stupidity...It's not about the factions, it's about players ;D

#5 Tarogato

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 02:17 AM

Funny, in my times playing as clan I usually lost long range trades against IS. And now that I'm back as IS, tend to win those trades against clans. In CW where most of the players are potato, the shorter duration for IS really helps them, because they don't have the aiming or reaction time to do work with clan weapons.

Anecdotal, of course, as almost all things in this game are. *shrug*

Edited by Tarogato, 29 May 2016 - 02:18 AM.


#6 multisoul

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 09:53 AM



#7 NUSQUAM

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 04:09 AM

What I see most often is a push will stop and get picked off because they got timid after seeing all those lasers/alphas. People don't know that that opening salvo is often over 50% of their heat threshold even on cold maps. Keep pushing and their DPS drops off significantly if they don't want to overheat. If you stop or slow that gives them time to cool off.

The key is to keep moving, present 12 targets to divide their fire, and keep them running hot. You may lost a mech or two pushing into them but will be able to wipe a wave once their heat is too much and it will end up with IS at 12 kills and clan at 3. But two of those three will be lost early, which spooks some players. So they think they're losing when in reality they're about to pull a head due to heat advantage.

Another pitfall I see is the faster mechs poking around the gates when attacking/recapturing. The end up trading a lot of armor for a fraction of the damage.

After I came back to FP, dropped it in beta 1 because it was horrid, I had no idea the changes clans went through. I came back expecting them to be OP. Little did I know that it was, all 'git gud' jokes aside, my own tactics that were playing directly into clanners hands. I too was afraid of brawling into a clan mech. All those lasers are scary. But then I started doing research. These forums have an extraordinary amount of conjecture and opinion passed off as fact. As well as some elitists. But I did need to reevaluate my tactics. Getting spooked and poking in and out was playing to the clans advantage of range. I was helping them mitigate their heat weakness by being timid, hiding, and letting them cool down.

Once I started getting aggressive I've done a lot better. Sure going alone against 12 is death. Sure letting a KDK-3 unload on you is death. But knowing when to press the advantage as a team I've seen so many clan firing lines collapse into a scattered overheated mess. Even 1v1 in a marauder against a lone ebonjag. Their initial alpha will chunk me, but then I'll pull ahead and get the kill because of the heat difference.

I even have a Firestarter loaded with 3 flamers for hot maps now. It'll shut them down quickly. They key there is to have multiple flamers firing at once, but tapping the trigger. Have them 'off' longer than on, but because you have multiple thier heat goes up but yours doesn't.

I invite anyone whos unsure to use thermal vision next time. Really pay attention to their heat and how quickly it'll go up.

#8 Commander A9

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 11:31 AM

Because people have YET to understand that to win at Faction Warfare/Community Warfare requires teamwork.

When your drop commanders calls a push, and half the team breaks off to engage the enemy rather than push to where the drop commander calls for, you tend to see teams fold and lose-horribly.

Then you have the people who refuse to follow orders simply because orders are being given.

Then you have the people who think bringing missiles into Community Warfare is a good idea.

Then you have people who are more concerned about stat-padding than actually winning the match.

Then you have people who scream 'I just want to have fun!' in the beginning of the match, then turn right around and ask why the whole team failed since said 'fun-lover' doesn't want to listen to the drop commander's instructions.

People...just don't get how Community Warfare works...but they'll quickly point the finger at the big team for "destroying their fun" and "ruining their game" when the big teams keep winning because the big teams know how to play this game.

So...it's time to learn how to work together, guys.

Edited by Commander A9, 10 June 2016 - 11:32 AM.


#9 Chimera_

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 12:57 PM

Since you're FRR, I'd recommend checking out the FRR Hub teamspeak and finding groups there; plenty of mediocre players use that TS but in general you should get decent groups.

As for the actual point of the topic, if the clanners are pugs (or not very good), IS players can actually poke at range pretty well. Under 600 meters the short IS laser durations are a big factor, and if the enemy clanners aren't paying attention you can easily get free trades off. Beyond 6-700 meters, you generally want to avoid trading since that's where C-LPL will outgun your own lasers pretty easily.

Of course I'm specifically talking about doing quick pokes forward then immediately back out, and never sitting still. IS players facetanking clan lasers at range are definitely doing it wrong.

Edited by Chimera11, 10 June 2016 - 01:00 PM.


#10 HA HA POOP

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 05:51 PM

View PostNUSQUAM, on 09 June 2016 - 04:09 AM, said:

What I see most often is a push will stop and get picked off because they got timid after seeing all those lasers/alphas. People don't know that that opening salvo is often over 50% of their heat threshold even on cold maps. Keep pushing and their DPS drops off significantly if they don't want to overheat. If you stop or slow that gives them time to cool off.

The key is to keep moving, present 12 targets to divide their fire, and keep them running hot. You may lost a mech or two pushing into them but will be able to wipe a wave once their heat is too much and it will end up with IS at 12 kills and clan at 3. But two of those three will be lost early, which spooks some players. So they think they're losing when in reality they're about to pull a head due to heat advantage.

Another pitfall I see is the faster mechs poking around the gates when attacking/recapturing. The end up trading a lot of armor for a fraction of the damage.

After I came back to FP, dropped it in beta 1 because it was horrid, I had no idea the changes clans went through. I came back expecting them to be OP. Little did I know that it was, all 'git gud' jokes aside, my own tactics that were playing directly into clanners hands. I too was afraid of brawling into a clan mech. All those lasers are scary. But then I started doing research. These forums have an extraordinary amount of conjecture and opinion passed off as fact. As well as some elitists. But I did need to reevaluate my tactics. Getting spooked and poking in and out was playing to the clans advantage of range. I was helping them mitigate their heat weakness by being timid, hiding, and letting them cool down.

Once I started getting aggressive I've done a lot better. Sure going alone against 12 is death. Sure letting a KDK-3 unload on you is death. But knowing when to press the advantage as a team I've seen so many clan firing lines collapse into a scattered overheated mess. Even 1v1 in a marauder against a lone ebonjag. Their initial alpha will chunk me, but then I'll pull ahead and get the kill because of the heat difference.

I even have a Firestarter loaded with 3 flamers for hot maps now. It'll shut them down quickly. They key there is to have multiple flamers firing at once, but tapping the trigger. Have them 'off' longer than on, but because you have multiple thier heat goes up but yours doesn't.

I invite anyone whos unsure to use thermal vision next time. Really pay attention to their heat and how quickly it'll go up.

This.

Edited by Hipoalergeniko, 10 June 2016 - 05:52 PM.


#11 Count Zero 74

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 06:57 AM

Neither Clans or IS is better at long range trading or the peek-a-boo. I'll let you in on secret boys, so listen carefully and promise to not tell anyone.

It's the better player that will win the trading game. I know it sounds unbelievable but trust me I've done the research.

#12 Chunx

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 12:53 PM

Whenever I push as Black knight, using large pulses and medium pulses, i just get slaughtered. Even if its one badly damaged mech. I tried to push in on a lone ebon jaguar, and he just turned around and killed me, he was within 50 meters. And no he didnt get a headshot, he went through 80 points of armour within seconds, while my black knight can go through only 59 within a couple seconds.

#13 MovinTarget

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 01:07 PM

View PostChunx, on 04 July 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

Whenever I push as Black knight, using large pulses and medium pulses, i just get slaughtered. Even if its one badly damaged mech. I tried to push in on a lone ebon jaguar, and he just turned around and killed me, he was within 50 meters. And no he didnt get a headshot, he went through 80 points of armour within seconds, while my black knight can go through only 59 within a couple seconds.


If only we had the ability twist our torsos to spread that damage....

Sorry, could resist, but seriously... yes clams have better range, but also typically longer burn times. If you torso twist, you'll spread the damage all over...

For a lot of top players, its not about having the biggest alpha, but outlasting your enemy... learn to push your heat to the max without sutting down or cooking yourself., Torso twist, target your prey to id their weaknesses, and ffs move and shoot at the same time.

Maybe your alpha is 59 and his is 65, he can alpha once before having to manage heat severely while you can alpha twice with faster cooldowns...

You just have to know how to milk your mech...

#14 Vanguard319

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 01:48 PM

So far, I have seen teams that lean towards aggression and have coordination usually win the engagement. Yesterday I was in a team that lost even though we had Long Tom support, the other team was aggressive, and kept a far enough spread where they could group up on targets without losing whole lances to artillery. while our so-called "commander" insisted that we hide in our base instead of going out and taking advantage of the chaos to destroy them. "The best defense is an aggressive offense." Once again the words of Sun-Tzu are proven as truth.

#15 NocturnalBeast

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 03:45 PM

The reason that people feel that one side is more "OP" than the other is because they are probably dropping in a mostly PUG group vs a premade.

#16 MovinTarget

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Posted 04 July 2016 - 04:16 PM

View PostEd Steele, on 04 July 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

The reason that people feel that one side is more "OP" than the other is because they are probably dropping in a mostly PUG group vs a premade.


Am I the only one who ever asked himself if I am to blame for losing and must therefore "up my game"?

If you are good enough to not be carried, you typically can pick 3 guys that you trust and win 50% of the time.

If you are dropping with hope that 3 players will magically carry you every single , you are probably in here... qq'ing about balance.

Edited by MovinTarget, 04 July 2016 - 04:26 PM.


#17 Reptilizer

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 01:16 AM

View PostCommander A9, on 10 June 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

*snip*
Then you have the people who think bringing missiles into Community Warfare is a good idea.
*snip*


Generally i agree, but having 2-3 heavies with LRM loadouts in the first drop is actually a viable strategy.
You go against 90%+ assaults/heavies in the first drop, usually without extensive AMS cover (because nobody brings LRMs, right?). Best targets you will ever get for your missiles.
With very little coordination you also can pull off some very nice area denial.
I can pull the same weight as my teammates in assaults AND have my own assault still ready for the second drop.

#18 Aerei

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 06:00 AM

View PostCount Zero 74, on 30 June 2016 - 06:57 AM, said:

Neither Clans or IS is better at long range trading or the peek-a-boo. I'll let you in on secret boys, so listen carefully and promise to not tell anyone.

It's the better player that will win the trading game. I know it sounds unbelievable but trust me I've done the research.


Allow me to put that in a context that is actually useful.

I think we all know, or should know by now, that clans have more range and more damage than their IS counterparts. I'm sure most of us also know that IS mechs generally have a lower beam duration and lower heat. However, judging from the poor long range trades that generally prevail in IS, most people, I gather, don't understand the importance of that duration.

Your IS weapons have a lower optimal damage, so you can't be fighting at extreme range, but at 500-700 range, you can win relevant trades. An IS mech can peek out, fire its shot, and will naturally take return fire. However, chances are that the IS laser will finish its shot first. As soon as your beam duration is done, or nearly done, twist out of the way and give the clan laser your shield arm, then start getting back into cover. Even if you take the full beam, if you had good aim, chances are you dealt all your damage on one component, because the clan mech was focused on shooting you, rather than twisting. This means that even if you took more percentage damage, you may have hit more important components, and your damage wasn't spread.

To sum that up, you may have taken more damage, but he's closer to dying.

This is even more important when you consider the number of IS mechs that have twist speed quirks, and that some clan setups have negative twist speed quirks. IS mechs also have structure quirks. I may be beating a dead horse here, but you need to use all those quirks together--twist speed and low duration to spread out damage, and then the structure quirks to absorb the damage differential.

Clan mechs have the challenge of managing heat, due to weaker DHS and high heat weapons. They need to decide when to bring the full power of their insane alphas to bear, and when to hold back.

IS, on the other hand, has to be wily. We don't have the range of clan weapons, but we can twist faster, take more hits (on average), have shorter durations, and sometimes even have acceleration and deceleration quirks. We need to use all of those together to reduce our facetime,and apply trades with finesse instead of raw, overwhelming power.

Maybe that makes it harder for IS to trade favorably, but it's certainly not impossible. Heck, I would even say that a competitively IS pilot, assuming mechs have comparable weapon loadouts, has a slight advantage over an equally skilled clanner when it comes to trades.

This does apply to things like IS ACs vs clan Ultra ACs as well. If you're quick on the draw, you can twist and spread damage from clan UACs. Clan mechs, ironically, have less precision. Take advantage of that.

Edited by Aerei, 07 July 2016 - 06:01 AM.


#19 Odanan

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 06:19 AM

View Postmultisoul, on 29 May 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:



And I watched this whole video... :/

#20 Kael Posavatz

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 08:21 AM

It's not you. IS PUGs don't know how to win against Clan Teams, and Clan PUGs don't know how to win against IS PUGs.

I won't comment on the Clan Teams that lose to IS PUGs





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