88 replies to this topic

[SOL Ranger]

Solve the TTK problem and these issues evaporate, as they are part of it.

[Deathlike]

Ultimax, on 28 May 2016 - 05:51 PM, said:

They don't keep them down bud, it's inherent in the Battletech system.

Look at some of the quirks the really bad light mechs have gotten, how extreme does it need to go before they are viable - and is that number also just ridiculous?

They only thing that could be done at this point is give a personal or team wide cbill bonus for those lesser mechs as a quasi "low resource use" bonus.

Gimp to farm?

Give EmP a list of terribad mechs, and you can be assured they'll make them look 50% better than the average pilot that doesn't even torso twist. Free C-bill farmin' bonuses.

While ideally, we would make a lot of the terrible Light mechs come to the level of the optimal Light mechs... given our balance overlord's track record, this idea sounds bad from a Paulconomy standpoint... but yet probably the easiest to implement.

Neither's going to happen though.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 May 2016 - 06:19 PM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

While ideally, we would make a lot of the terrible Light mechs come to the level of the optimal Light mechs...

It's a catch 22.

If an upper ton light mech is better than a lower ton light mech, why play the lower ton light mech?

If a lower ton light mech (that is smaller and more agile, usually) is buffed to compete head to head with upper ton light mechs, why do you take the upper ton light mech?

[Deathlike]

Ultimax, on 28 May 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

It's a catch 22.

If an upper ton light mech is better than a lower ton light mech, why play the lower ton light mech?

If a lower ton light mech (that is smaller and more agile, usually) is buffed to compete head to head with upper ton light mechs, why do you take the upper ton light mech?

There is a point where the Lighter mech will always be more deficient their their "bigger brothers". I don't think that's the worst case.

When the ACH was a no brainer over the alternatives (during its initial debut), it is possible for a smaller mech to be better than things bigger than it.

The question ultimately becomes "by how much?"


It's not impossible, and it can be impractical in some instances (certain Locusts won't be good, unless you're allowed to overquirk it)... it's just that the alternatives are so much worse in comparison to the "gold standard", that you'd have to really address a lot of the alternatives with significant quirks... even if you nerf the gold standards... the alternatives still need buffs.

[Xetelian]

It isn't like they have a lot of range
It isn't like they have a small spread
It isn't like they carry a ton of armor

Light mechs killed me, nerf all light mechs?

I take off a Jenner's leg with a cLPL and dual Gauss in one shot I blow out their XL torsos even faster



No light is OP because it can only carry 40 armor in the torso...it can only take a single hit so if you have good aim hit it twice and its dead.




The only time a light succeeds in ruining my day is when there are more than one circling me. My DWF can back up and spin drawing the light into my range of fire and "pop" it dies.


The light queue is 10%
The Heavy queue is 45%

Which one is OP?

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

There is a point where the Lighter mech will always be more deficient their their "bigger brothers". I don't think that's the worst case.

Quirks can achieve almost anything, aside from saving mechs that have 1 hardpoint or something silly (and even then we've seen Emp take the Spider-5K in recent MRBC matches).

The Oxide is currently better than almost everything under 55 tons, this was a mech that was considered bad previously.

Deathlike, on 28 May 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

When the ACH was a no brainer over the alternatives (during its initial debut), it is possible for a smaller mech to be better than things bigger than it.

We had Dragon Slayers > all Assaults, pre-december Quickdraws were better than the vast majority of other heavies primarily through quirks, the Black Jack was hands down the best medium in the game for a while - again through quirks.


Personally, I don't think that's the right direction, I don't think lighter tonned mechs should ever have as much or more raw combat value as higher tonned mechs when the gap is relatively large.

Which is relative. 10 tons different between TBR and EBJ isn't that bad, 10 tons between ACH and Locust is huge.


Monetary incentive is one way I think the gap in value to the player can be closed a bit. You have to work harder to do as well as a higher tonned mech, but in return get cbill incentives to make up that difference.

Quirks to keep mechs from being outright trash are a must of course, but I'd like to see other avenues of incentivizing the lesser valued lighter tonned mechs in different classes (which also combines with tonnage restrictions in FW & Group queue).

Edited by Ultimax, 28 May 2016 - 07:06 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

I'm fine with bringing knockdowns and collisions back if PGI ever manages to fix the code to make it work right. We had it in closed beta, and I stayed 10-20 meters away.

Gotta be honest though, if half these oxide and Jenner IIC pilots figured out how to boom and zoom properly the demands for a nerf would be way way more numerous.

P.S. When hitreg worked (on a blue moon) the oxide was a good mech even before it had quirks if you played it BnZ style.

[Deathlike]

Ultimax, on 28 May 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

Monetary incentive is one way I think the gap in value to the player can be closed a bit. You have to work harder to do as well as a higher tonned mech, but in return get cbill incentives to make up that difference.

Quirks to keep mechs from being outright trash are a must of course, but I'd like to see other avenues of incentivizing the lesser valued lighter tonned mechs in different classes (which also combines with tonnage restrictions in FW & Group queue).

PGI has yet to incentivize that at all, seeing it has been mentioned long before the death of role warfare (it didn't get past infancy).

I'm not against trying to incentivizing it. I'm only saying, PGI has not put any consideration (to my knowledge) to that when we had different systems (like 3/3/3/3 or Elo with weight classes) in play.

[Void Angel]

JC Daxion, on 28 May 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

Bring back Knockdowns.... I hope that comes with an engine upgrade


I'd even like to see collision damage completely removed.. aka my teammate is an idiot and grazes my leg, and now i lost a bunch of armor.. and perhaps if they see you being knocked down, they might learn to pilot.. Or better yet, give them a -Cbill modifer for every time you knock down your teammate.

Erm, the amount of damage you lose from that leg graze is a tiny fraction of a point - it would be nice to get that damage removed, but from a practical standpoint it's a nonissue. It only feels like a problem because Light pilots are sensitive about any damage to their legs.

As for collisions? No. No, we're good; thanks anyway.

Trauglodyte, on 28 May 2016 - 04:41 PM, said:

This is the problem that I've been screaming about since closed beta. The concept of a simple engine cap formula for all mechs is ridiculous. Given the power of the Jenner versus all Light mechs, why is it as fast as all of the other Light mechs while having superior firepower? The only Lights that the Jenner doesn't keep pace with is the Locust and the Commando and both of those mechs got significant engine cap increases because they couldn't stand toe to toe with the Jenner. Hell, the Jenner is a more powerful mech than its 5 ton heavier cousin, the Cicada, while having a much lesser to-hit profile.

To the OP's point, SRMs are extremely powerful on two platforms: something that is extremely small and fast that can put a lot of them on their (read: this is why the SRM Locust and Commando suck - they can't fit as much on their frames while maintaining survivibility) OR you put it on something slow and extremely durable that can pack them in mass quantities (read: brawler Atlas). There isn't a lot of in between because they either don't make a mech that is 100% missiles or they do but the size profile/lack of speed prevents it from being prolific and capable. Everyone used to fear the Splat Cat but that was back when there were only like 10 mechs in the game. The lack of mechs meant that there was a lack of weapon combinations which meant that they weren't kept in check. Look at today's game and you don't see them.

Actually, SRMs are my go-to support weapon for brawlers of any size. They're heat-efficient and hard-hitting, and you can get pretty good effects on target with the right combination and groupings (Shadowhawk-2H has good grouping, for example; the Hunchback-4SP, not so much.) You don't want to over-invest, but particularly if you want to fight things bigger than a Medium, nothing packs the punch for the heat of an SRM, even considering missile spread. To put it another way, a heat-limited build can use SRMs to gain more effective targeted firepower against large opponents, but with the drawback that their firepower doesn't work terribly well against Lights.

And that's kind of the effect in play here. If you can place your shots reliably on a big hitbox, SRMs are one of the meanest knife-range weapons in the game, so you're seeing Jenner IIC's and Oxides coming after assaults, particularly the ones using a lot of torso weapons. Unless your Assault driver is alone and helpless (or already cored,) they're usually not just standing there face-hugging you; they hit and run, then come at you again when you try to engage others. They're mean, but you've got a team - ask for help, recognizing that they may have other people shooting them, and ask yourself how that Oxide got all the way into your face in the first place. Use your mic - and if you don't have one, well... that's on you, and you really can't complain that people don't coordinate to help you when you can't talk to them.

As for Jenners... Jenners have been left behind until just recently - since about forever ago. Even before quirks, for every Jenner with a huge CT hitbox, you had two Firestarters standing next to them singing, "Anything You Can Do."

[Snowbluff]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

It's ridiculous however, to support the fact that they can literally stand next to a 100 ton mech, themselves being 35 tons, and completely halt movement, so far as to resist the force of a 100 ton mech attempting to surpass them. It's not a particularly necessary advantage. Light mechs shouldn't be face tanking assault mechs, they should be moving at a fair distance from them, using their ungodly turning speed as an advantage. That's where the SRM boat light mech would be fairly useful.

Typical 100 tonner engine size: 300
Jenner Oxide Engine Cap: 300

Seems to be working just fine to me. Two forces of equal magnitude moving in opposite directions would cancel each other out.

[Cy Mitchell]

I do not want to see knockdown come back but I would like to see collision damage between enemy Mechs and no more rubberbanding through enemy Mechs. I have penned ACHs and Oxides against a wall with Assaults and Heavies only to have them teleport through me and shoot me in the back.

Whar dey go?
Jus doan seem natural there Martha.

[Jerry McMasters]

Bush Hopper, on 28 May 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

The only chance a light mech has to be close (also because of their mostly close-range weaponry) to the heavy or assault to even have a chance to stay a little bit outside their firing arcs.

When speed value were overall reduced the heavies and assaults got an agility compensation with quirks. The losers were the light mechs. "Humping" is therefore often necessary. Take that also away - or even punish them for it - and you can trash the whole class.


Which advantages?

1. To get crippled or blow up when one of those huge alphas strikes one solid hit?
2. To get to close through seismic and radar (for non ECM lights) to even use their close-range weaponry?
3. To carry half the armour and (in many cases) half the alpha/dps of a heavy or assault?

Oh, sorry, you mean speed! As I already said already above: Speed which is negated to quite an extend by the agility of the heavies and assaults...yeah, I mean whoopidooo what an advantage! This surly cannot compensated by all the disadvantages listed above

Sarcasn aside: be honest for a second. You think a light should have no chance against a heavy or assault whereas it is totally ok that a light blows up when it eats an alpha of a heavy or assault

You seem to be convinced that alpha striking light mechs is "The easiest possible action" in the entire game. I'm not sure if you've been playing it, or actually just surfing it's forums, but alpha striking a moving light mech (They generally tend to be moving at all times.) is nigh impossible, even with perfect aim. The lag shield still exist, travel time weapons are nearly incapable of connecting shots, not to mention the LB-X weapons, which seem like a cure all for lights, but in reality, barely any of it's pellets are registered.

Edited by Jerry McMasters, 28 May 2016 - 09:40 PM.

[Deathlike]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

You seem to be convinced that alpha striking light mechs is "The easiest possible action" in the entire game. I'm not sure if you've been playing it, or actually just surfing it's forums, but alpha striking a moving light mech (They generally tend to be moving at all times.) is nigh impossible, even with perfect aim. The lag shield still exist, travel time weapons are nearly incapable of connecting shots, not to mention the LB-X weapons, which seem like a cure all for lights, but in reality, barely any of it's pellets are registered.

If it's impossible, you need to work on your aim.

I know hitreg eats some of the fire you do, but actual practice on shooting Lights isn't that bad... unless you're not willing to commit to it.

[Mavairo]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2016 - 09:43 PM, said:

If it's impossible, you need to work on your aim.

I know hitreg eats some of the fire you do, but actual practice on shooting Lights isn't that bad... unless you're not willing to commit to it.

And if he still has trouble...could just find the tonnage for a pair of streak 2s....or streak 4s

[Jerry McMasters]

Snowbluff, on 28 May 2016 - 08:34 PM, said:

Typical 100 tonner engine size: 300
Jenner Oxide Engine Cap: 300

Seems to be working just fine to me. Two forces of equal magnitude moving in opposite directions would cancel each other out.

I'm afraid you've completely ignored physics. Not to that end, how engines are scaled between different mechs lore-wise, in fact, here's a quote from the wiki "[color=#000000]Additionally, engine rating is [/color]not[color=#000000] proportional to engine mass; "[/color]

Deathlike, on 28 May 2016 - 09:43 PM, said:

If it's impossible, you need to work on your aim.

I know hitreg eats some of the fire you do, but actual practice on shooting Lights isn't that bad... unless you're not willing to commit to it.

You can blow what I said off, and take my words and twist them into a whole new meaning. But do that somewhere else please.

I said that hitting them with slow moving weapons, like cannons or PPCs, is difficult. Lasers, SRMs, sure, that's besides the point.

[Deathlike]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

You can blow what I said off, and take my words and twist them into a whole new meaning. But do that somewhere else please.

I said that hitting them with slow moving weapons, like cannons or PPCs, is difficult. Lasers, SRMs, sure, that's besides the point.

It takes actual practice.

Even with crappier slower weapons.. up to a certain point (usually range) where you can hit mechs with slower dakka.

PPCs up to a certain quirked point is more than enough for a Light. I spent some time with a 2 CERPPC Summoner shooting Oxides. It was a lot of fun.

[LordNothing]

light srm boats are very ammo constrained things. i got 3 tons ammo in my oxide. its gone before you can get started on your third kill, unless you got real lucky finding holes in armor. its also very easy to die. like if the target you decided to pick on turns out to be a streak boat. or you just happen to run by that one t1 player who can leg or kill a light in a single shot. its very easy to die a stupid useless death.

[DAYLEET]

No light should be able to put 30+ damage much less front loaded damage like srm.

I mean, we already knew that 30+ energy duration light were stupids, why make lights with 30+ damage srm?

[Walsung]

LordNothing, on 28 May 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

light srm boats are very ammo constrained things. i got 3 tons ammo in my oxide. its gone before you can get started on your third kill, unless you got real lucky finding holes in armor. its also very easy to die. like if the target you decided to pick on turns out to be a streak boat. or you just happen to run by that one t1 player who can leg or kill a light in a single shot. its very easy to die a stupid useless death.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...20413a297240b7b

this build (metamechs) max damage 1000 and good luck hitting with all of it esp if you end up in knife fights with other lights.

[Weeny Machine]

Ultimax, on 28 May 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

I think there needs to be some middle ground in "viable land" between commandos & locusts on one end of the potato spectrum and Jenner IICs & Oxides capable of one or two shotting mechs from being with enormous SRM alphas (6xSRM6 IIC) or generating upwards of 16 DPS +structure/agility/firepower quirks (oxide).

Take an Oxide or Jenner IIC and take it to the testing ground. Try to 1-2 shot an unmoving assault. Good luck


Edit: Even if you hump them, you arm weapons will hit most likely other areas as well

Trauglodyte, on 28 May 2016 - 04:41 PM, said:

This is the problem that I've been screaming about since closed beta. The concept of a simple engine cap formula for all mechs is ridiculous. Given the power of the Jenner versus all Light mechs, why is it as fast as all of the other Light mechs while having superior firepower? The only Lights that the Jenner doesn't keep pace with is the Locust and the Commando and both of those mechs got significant engine cap increases because they couldn't stand toe to toe with the Jenner. Hell, the Jenner is a more powerful mech than its 5 ton heavier cousin, the Cicada, while having a much lesser to-hit profile.

To the OP's point, SRMs are extremely powerful on two platforms: something that is extremely small and fast that can put a lot of them on their (read: this is why the SRM Locust and Commando suck - they can't fit as much on their frames while maintaining survivibility) OR you put it on something slow and extremely durable that can pack them in mass quantities (read: brawler Atlas). There isn't a lot of in between because they either don't make a mech that is 100% missiles or they do but the size profile/lack of speed prevents it from being prolific and capable. Everyone used to fear the Splat Cat but that was back when there were only like 10 mechs in the game. The lack of mechs meant that there was a lack of weapon combinations which meant that they weren't kept in check. Look at today's game and you don't see them.

The Jenner IIC SRM boat you are complaining about is NOT as fast as other lights. Depending on the build (and amount of SRMs) it drives at about 130 km/h. Most other light mechs are at about 149

The Jenner IICs also are very fragile and not as agile as quite a lot other lights even if you put the same engine in them.

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

You seem to be convinced that alpha striking light mechs is "The easiest possible action" in the entire game. I'm not sure if you've been playing it, or actually just surfing it's forums, but alpha striking a moving light mech (They generally tend to be moving at all times.) is nigh impossible, even with perfect aim. The lag shield still exist, travel time weapons are nearly incapable of connecting shots, not to mention the LB-X weapons, which seem like a cure all for lights, but in reality, barely any of it's pellets are registered.

Or maybe I just have spent enough time to know on lights to know when I can risk pumping a whole alpha out and get most of it.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 29 May 2016 - 12:41 AM.