88 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

Bush Hopper, on 29 May 2016 - 12:05 AM, said:

Take an Oxide or Jenner IIC and take it to the testing ground. Try to 1-2 shot an unmoving assault. Good luck


Edit: Even if you hump them, you arm weapons will hit most likely other areas as well

Jenner IIC can 2 shot mechs in the testing grounds with ease. Also can do it high level comp games.

Granted this is a baller clip and timing on that strike was sweet.
https://dl.dropboxus...enworsesong.mp4

[MechWarrior319348]

FireDog, on 29 May 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

This thread is a load of BS.... You might as well say. "Why was a WWII PT boat overpowerd?" Heck, in real life a few PT's even took out Japaneses destroyers and light cruisers. A good torpedo run from close range could do the trick. But like MWO light mechs, the PT was limited by ammo and armor, 4 torpedo and a thin plywood hull. While they ate Japanese supply barges protected by machine guns in the Pacific, they did not do so well with German gunboats armed with 88's and fast firing light cannons in the Mediterranean.

Fast, hard hitting and light has always been to some degree a control on heavy and well armed. many parallels can be found though history well onto our modern times. I don't see any change in our future, even in a fictional one.

They couldn't move at 140 kph though, and they didn't have hit reg issues. (just being a smart ***)

But its probably more like a PT boat sinking a Yamato class battleship.

[FireDog]

Delta 62, on 29 May 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

They couldn't move at 140 kph though, and they didn't have hit reg issues. (just being a smart ***)

But its probably more like a PT boat sinking a Yamato class battleship.

I can see what you mean. A large assault in MWO verses a light lance would be like a Yamato class BB vs a squadron of PT boats at night armed with only its 18" and 6" batteries. Without its lighter AA batteries it would have a very hard time protecting itself. Maybe the foolish 18" AA "shotgun" shells that proved so ineffective in WWII would have come in handy given these circumstances. How well does a brace of LBX20s do verses lights in MWO?

[MechWarrior319348]

FireDog, on 30 May 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

I can see what you mean. A large assault in MWO verses a light lance would be like a Yamato class BB vs a squadron of PT boats at night armed with only its 18" and 6" batteries. Without its lighter AA batteries it would have a very hard time protecting itself. Maybe the foolish 18" AA "shotgun" shells that proved so ineffective in WWII would have come in handy given these circumstances. How well does a brace of LBX20s do verses lights in MWO?

Meh, The Japanese navy was good at night fighting, during Guadalcanal they had the U.S. navy on the ropes. And were able to land reinforcements and supplies throughout the battle.

I imagine they would launch flares. PT boats would need to be very close to do any good. They could be spotted if the Japanese were to launch flares. Even if they couldn't aim their main guns low enough, they still have sufficient secondary weapon platforms to squash em with.

If I were in a PT boat, I wouldn't want to be within 3 miles of that thing.

[Snowbluff]

For the record, the Yamato class battleships that Japan deployed all went down in embarassing ways. The Yamato was destroyed by planes deployed by an aircraft carrier, inflicting minimal casualties in return. Musashi met a similiar fate. The Shirano was destroyed by a single sub (4 torpedoes), one which it should have been able to outrun. The Shirano had so little impact that no one believed it existed when the captain of the sub said he blew it up.

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

I'm afraid you've completely ignored physics. Not to that end, how engines are scaled between different mechs lore-wise, in fact, here's a quote from the wiki "[color=#000000]Additionally, engine rating is [/color]not[color=#000000] proportional to engine mass; "[/color]

Actually, you've that entirely wrong. The engine cores are the same horsepower. Literally 2 to 3 sentence from YOUR OWN SOURCE say that a 30 tonner has the same momentum as a 60 tonner if they have the same engine.

Quote

Fusion engines, like other engines, are defined by their "engine rating". For 'Mechs, the engine rating is the mathematical product of the mass of the vehicle and its desired maximum walking or cruising velocity. Stated another way, a 'Mech's maximum walking momentum is directly proportional to engine rating. For instance,
A 30-ton Spider BattleMech with a 240 Pitban Fusion Engine is able to generate the same maximum momentum of a 60-ton Merlin with the same engine, but because the Merlin masses twice the Spider, the Spider's maximum velocity is twice that of the Merlin.^[2][3]

What your quote is saying is that the mass difference between a 150 and 200 engine (5 tons) is higher than that between a 300 and a 350 engine (11.5 tons).

If you're going to say my physics is wrong, be right, and not entirely wrong as you are here. If you're going to source something, make sure it supports your argument, and not literally tell you that you are wrong like you did here.

Edited by Snowbluff, 31 May 2016 - 08:58 AM.

[MechWarrior319348]

Snowbluff, on 31 May 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

For the record, the Yamato class battleships that Japan deployed all went down in embarassing ways. The Yamato was destroyed by planes deployed by an aircraft carrier, inflicting minimal casualties in return. Musashi met a similiar fate. The Shirano was destroyed by a single sub (4 torpedoes), one which it should have been able to outrun. The Shirano had so little impact that no one believed it existed when the captain of the sub said he blew it up.

Yeah, I used it as an example because supposedly it is the heaviest class of battleship ever created. We were jokin around about imagining a scenario with a bunch of PT boats trying to sink one.

[Davis Carlyle]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Now, before you dismiss me as a whiner or flamer, listen to this.
I'm definitely not saying that light mechs in themselves are overpowered, neither are SRMs. However, the issue lies in the fact that there is a key strategy for skilled SRM boats, specifically the Jenner both IIC and IS hero variants.

There's more than one point in this thread, there's an honest question, and there's a suggestion. Jenners are one of the shortest light mechs you can drive, easily ducking under some of the taller mechs, escaping their fury. Now this comes into play, when a assault mech is simply too slow, and has too many torso mounted weapons to deal with a leg humping Jenner, I'm sure everyone has experienced this, A SRM Jenner runs right beneath your firing capabilities, and blows your shins off. Worse so if they can get behind you, or if you're stuck against a backdrop of terrain, and you can't move past the Jenner.

The fix is simple, larger mechs need the ability to stomp/collide with these little pest. The system applies a % increase to collision damage based on both mechs' sizes. An assault moving against a Jenner for example, would do massive amounts of damage, and if the Jenner doesn't back off, possible destruction.

Besides, can anyone argue why a light mech would ever get right next to an assault mech's legs realistically? To me that seems like a bid for assisted suicide.

Ramming/Death from Above are both tactics I would love to see in MWO. Nothing says pretzels like that Madcat that just landed smack on your cockpit.

[Mawai]

Jerry McMasters, on 28 May 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

What a sharp tone, as if you're speaking down to me. I'd like it if everyone on this thread spoke to each other as equals, thank you kindly.

Besides the irritable tat, you're right, but you've completely ignored the entire issue. I never said lights were overpowered and needed to be nerfed. I said that the ability for a light mech to block it's 100 ton counterpart and shoot it's shins off with SRM alpha, is ridiculous. Light mechs are mean't to strife around the assault and rip open it's less armored rear, that's when your whole buddy system works properly.

Also, there is a difference structurally between a 35 ton mech, and a 100 ton mech. I highly disagree that the collision between the two should be identical. That's like saying a 10 pound steel ball would deal just as much kinetic damage as a 28 pound steel ball rolling at the same speed towards a brick wall. The size really does matter.\

Also, I know how assault mechs are mean't to be played, there's different situations, in which they fill a different roles.

I realize I am replying late to this but I was out of town on a business trip.

I'm sorry you perceived it as talking down to you ... I wasn't ... however, I was disagreeing with the suggestions that:

1) SRM armed light mechs are OP
2) Assault mechs should be able to stomp light mechs that are face hugging due to collision damage since you state that assaults can have trouble hitting Jenners at close range.

In my opinion and experience, neither of these are true to the extent that a properly played assault mech would always find itself in a hopeless situation when faced with a Jenner. I think the assault has a decent chance in many situations depending on their loadout and its effectiveness against faster opponents. However, even saying that, my point was that an assault mech should rarely if ever find itself in a 1:1 agaisnt a Jenner (although having a PUG team that abandons the assaults can be an issue ... however even in this situation, the assaults can stick together to mitigate the problem somewhat).

As for your analogy:

"That's like saying a 10 pound steel ball would deal just as much kinetic damage as a 28 pound steel ball rolling at the same speed towards a brick wall."

Obviously, the 28 pound steel ball has more kinetic energy if they are moving the same velocity.

However, we are not discussing steel balls striking a wall. We are essentially discussing steel balls striking each other with the deformation of the steel balls as a result of the collision being equivalent to the armor damage sustained by the mechs in question.

In addition, a 35 ton mech at 150kph has about 3 times the kinetic energy of a 100 ton mech at 50kph. The light mech would actually do MORE damage to that brick wall than the 100 ton mech. However, brick walls are fragile compared to mechs so the bricks break and the mechs don't. When the two endosteel, myomer and armor encased mechs collide ... (since this is science fiction ) ... I really have no good idea of how the damage would be allocated ... however, if the mechs are like steel balls then both will end up a bit beaten up by the collision.

Anyway, that is a reality argument in a fantasy physics game so it isn't really relevant.

I played light mechs quite a bit when collisions and knockdown were in the game. Light mech pilots needed a bit more skill to stay close without getting tripped up but honestly it wasn't that difficult and the same general tactics prevailed. Loner assault mechs were vulnerable.

[Xetelian]

I just got clobbered by a JR7

Was my fault for being out of position, I went the long way around something and got caught.

Do I think the JR7 is OP? Nope.

Never would have tore me up if I had went with the team.