153 replies to this topic

[Cy Mitchell]

@JayceWolf

I would say that your estimates are a bit low. For evidence to support my case, I submit the fact that over $30,000 extra has been raised for the upcoming Tournament prize pool. That means that at least 6,000 players have bought the Tournament Supporter Pack. I seriously doubt that all but 1,000 players choose to support the tournament. I would guess that only about 1/4 to 1/2 of the active players choose to spend the $10 for that and the percentage is probably even less than that.

Taking the 6000 number and factoring in a percentage of 1/2 to 1/4 of active players buying in then that would give you a range of 12,000 to 24,000 active players. Not great or even good numbers for a modern PvP game but also a far cry better than what you are projecting.

There is a lot of good in MWO and there is plenty that could be significantly better. I see slow progress being made in moving this game towards realizing some of its incredible potential. It is OK to be upset that the game is not all you want it to be. Every BattleTech MechWarrior fan has their own vision of what the focus of the game should be and how it should play. The game has to be a compromise to satisfy as many BT/MW and non BT/MW fans as possible.

Some have not been satisfied and left. Some are not satisfied but stay and keep pushing for game improvement. Some lobby the forums to convince everyone that the game is a lost cause and should be abandoned so a better company will take over and make a better game. I personally do not see a bidding war for the BT/MW IP license and think it will be a really long time if ever that another company makes a real time action MechWarrior computer game. I will stick with this one because I would rather be playing than hoping and waiting.

[JayceWolf]

Tangelis, on 29 May 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

Well, yes there are many "MMO's" out there doing considerably better in the numbers dept... Several far worse though.

It's a game for us but ultimately like anything else it is a business....and if it wasn't making money, no one would bother keeping it live.

Not saying it's tremendous or couldn't be better etc blah blah.... but it's rather incredible to me that for all the doomsaying about MWO over the years it's still around with plans for the foreseeable future.

One day MWO will see it's final day, but it will not be via any prophecy for which we can already see those coming out of the woodwork with "I told you so" on their lips. It'll be for the same reason anything else see's its day...inevitability. There's always a bigger fish and everything has its time.

Everyone has their opinions and feelings.... even myself. I support MWO but no... I have not been overjoyed with everything that's been done. However with the exception of maybe Everquest...there is not a single title I've played longer. I guess it can't be that bad.

Then again It really is just a game to me.....not a way of life.

Thank you for your unbiased input, but please re-read my post.... I've explained how MWO surprisingly was able to keep going (due to die-hard fans)

but again, having a handful of customers that will pay you a limb does not mean your product is doing "ok".... it only means that these customers thought you will become the old "Coffee shop" that sold outstanding coffee in the past, so they are paying for all these Kool-laid you are selling now... waiting for that one good cup of joe.

basically, the returning customers now are the same people that loved the old management back then... and they are hoping the new management (PGI) will be able to meet the old standard. Also, this is the only coffee shop in town.

:/

[Helsbane]

JayceWolf, on 29 May 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

Thank you for your unbiased input, but please re-read my post.... I've explained how MWO surprisingly was able to keep going (due to die-hard fans)

but again, having a handful of customers that will pay you a limb does not mean your product is doing "ok".... it only means that these customers thought you will become the old "Coffee shop" that sold outstanding coffee in the past, so they are paying for all these Kool-laid you are selling now... waiting for that one good cup of joe.

basically, the returning customers now are the same people that loved the old management back then... and they are hoping the new management (PGI) will be able to meet the old standard. Also, this is the only coffee shop in town.

:/

Why do you think PGI was directly responsible for the end of MW:LL progress. They knew they couldn't survive if there was another viable option (even if it was just a mod) out there for players to choose.

[JayceWolf]

Rampage, on 29 May 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

@JayceWolf

I would say that your estimates are a bit low. For evidence to support my case, I submit the fact that over $30,000 extra has been raised for the upcoming Tournament prize pool. That means that at least 6,000 players have bought the Tournament Supporter Pack. I seriously doubt that all but 1,000 players choose to support the tournament. I would guess that only about 1/4 to 1/2 of the active players choose to spend the $10 for that and the percentage is probably even less than that.

Taking the 6000 number and factoring in a percentage of 1/2 to 1/4 of active players buying in then that would give you a range of 12,000 to 24,000 active players. Not great or even good numbers for a modern PvP game but also a far cry better than what you are projecting.

There is a lot of good in MWO and there is plenty that could be significantly better. I see slow progress being made in moving this game towards realizing some of its incredible potential. It is OK to be upset that the game is not all you want it to be. Every BattleTech MechWarrior fan has their own vision of what the focus of the game should be and how it should play. The game has to be a compromise to satisfy as many BT/MW and non BT/MW fans as possible.

Some have not been satisfied and left. Some are not satisfied but stay and keep pushing for game improvement. Some lobby the forums to convince everyone that the game is a lost cause and should be abandoned so a better company will take over and make a better game. I personally do not see a bidding war for the BT/MW IP license and think it will be a really long time if ever that another company makes a real time action MechWarrior computer game. I will stick with this one because I would rather be playing than hoping and waiting.

I hope your math is true because I really do want to see this title to flourish.

but for the diverse satisfaction that you stated.... I think it is a bit off,

for a fact that IF Mechwarrior 4 were to be re-made and they slap all the fancy graphics we have now into Mechwarrior 4.
I strongly believe that the sell quantity will exceeds millions.

from what I can tell, a lot of mechwarriors just want the old mechwarrior game back with better graphics and performance.

not as diverse as you might think like going for titan fall or hawken.

[Spheroid]

Stop kicking your own post and leave. There is nothing more to discuss. You your self described the topic as a rant. I am sure your pride will now demand you rebut my statement to get the last word. Retire and be gone.

[Wintersdark]

MWO is a niche game, with a niche game's player base. This is by design.

MWO is complex, and has a steep learning curve. That pushes a lot of potential players away, but it isn't inherently a bad thing.

Consider: Eve vs. WoW. Eve has maintained a population orders of magnitude smaller than World of Warcraft. This, because while both are persistent world MMO's, Eve is tremendously more complex and difficult to play, while WoW is extremely accessible for everyone. Neither is right or wrong, they're just very different animals. I'd personally argue Eve is, and has always been, the superior game - but WoW makes money, even today a decade after it's release, hand over fist.

But on the other hand, Eve is still trucking on just fine. Unlike many, many "WoW clones". Why is this? Because Eve targeted an unserved demographic. Players who wanted something more complex, more interesting.


PGI knew, coming into this, that MWO would never be a huge game. It was never intended to be. Why? There's easy answers:

1) Make a WoW clone, and you compete directly with WoW. Except with a tiny fraction of the budget and nowhere near the established players. Making a game more like existing ones means you're competing with them directly. We saw this happen with Hawken: they made a mech game designed for that broader audience, it lacked the core appeal but on the other hand was tremendously newbie friendly. How well did that work out?

2) The more complex and simlike the game, the more it appeals to a dedicated set of fans who are entirely unserved currently. These otherwise unserved fans are a very dedicated set, but few in number. So, a balance needs to be chosen between this target demographic and "other random players" - the simpler they go, the broader the appeal, but the less they draw in the target demographic. Go too simple, and your core fans leave, while the rest lack the attachment to stay around and will wander off on a whim. Go too complex, and your player base gets very small (but ever more loyal). You see this interaction every day in the forums, by the way. Whether PGI manages this balance well or not is up for debate (and really depends where you personally sit on the whole issue) but that's that.

---

Nobody thinks PGI is doing everything right. Even the whitest of the white knights will fully concede they've made a hell of a lot of poor choices, that development pace is terribly slow at best, etc.

But comparisons to wholly different games designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator is pointless and unfair. Of course they have larger player bases, they're targeting a much broader audience.

Me, I'm damned glad PGI didn't go that route. I detest Planetside 2 and DOTA, and find them terrible. That's just my opinion, and I know I'm in the minority there given the appeal of those games to many. I'm just happy PGI chose to make MWO for me, rather than for the masses.

[JayceWolf]

Helsbane, on 29 May 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Why do you think PGI was directly responsible for the end of MW:LL progress. They knew they couldn't survive if there was another viable option (even if it was just a mod) out there for players to choose.

so what is your point? that MWO jump on this boat knowing that it will be really hard to sink because those die-hards will drown themselves before letting PGI go bankrupt..

how is that good business management? or fair to the community that buys your product?

Spheroid, on 29 May 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

Stop kicking your own post and leave. There is nothing more to discuss. You your self described the topic as a rant. I am sure your pride will now demand you rebut my statement to get the last word. Retire and be gone.

sorry cult-member, if you don't feel the need for my opinion then just don't click on this post.

also, if you feel like it hurts your beloved cult-community then I am sorry... maybe submit a ticket to PGI to create a forums just for Mechwarrior die-hard fans?

so you don't have to ever see these rants.

[TLBFestus]

DaZur, on 29 May 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

Why do folks put so much effort into trying to sheep people into jump on hate PGI / MWO bandwagon?

There likely not one player who can name one reprehensible thing about PGI / MWO but even knowing that most (I did say most) generally find the core game enjoyable.

You are absolutely right.

If there's just one thing PGI does well, it's alienating people and fostering emnity. They should balance the game that well.

[JayceWolf]

Wintersdark, on 29 May 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

MWO is a niche game, with a niche game's player base. This is by design.

MWO is complex, and has a steep learning curve. That pushes a lot of potential players away, but it isn't inherently a bad thing.

Consider: Eve vs. WoW. Eve has maintained a population orders of magnitude smaller than World of Warcraft. This, because while both are persistent world MMO's, Eve is tremendously more complex and difficult to play, while WoW is extremely accessible for everyone. Neither is right or wrong, they're just very different animals. I'd personally argue Eve is, and has always been, the superior game - but WoW makes money, even today a decade after it's release, hand over fist.

But on the other hand, Eve is still trucking on just fine. Unlike many, many "WoW clones". Why is this? Because Eve targeted an unserved demographic. Players who wanted something more complex, more interesting.


PGI knew, coming into this, that MWO would never be a huge game. It was never intended to be. Why? There's easy answers:

1) Make a WoW clone, and you compete directly with WoW. Except with a tiny fraction of the budget and nowhere near the established players. Making a game more like existing ones means you're competing with them directly. We saw this happen with Hawken: they made a mech game designed for that broader audience, it lacked the core appeal but on the other hand was tremendously newbie friendly. How well did that work out?

2) The more complex and simlike the game, the more it appeals to a dedicated set of fans who are entirely unserved currently. These otherwise unserved fans are a very dedicated set, but few in number. So, a balance needs to be chosen between this target demographic and "other random players" - the simpler they go, the broader the appeal, but the less they draw in the target demographic. Go too simple, and your core fans leave, while the rest lack the attachment to stay around and will wander off on a whim. Go too complex, and your player base gets very small (but ever more loyal). You see this interaction every day in the forums, by the way. Whether PGI manages this balance well or not is up for debate (and really depends where you personally sit on the whole issue) but that's that.

---

Nobody thinks PGI is doing everything right. Even the whitest of the white knights will fully concede they've made a hell of a lot of poor choices, that development pace is terribly slow at best, etc.

But comparisons to wholly different games designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator is pointless and unfair. Of course they have larger player bases, they're targeting a much broader audience.

Me, I'm damned glad PGI didn't go that route. I detest Planetside 2 and DOTA, and find them terrible. That's just my opinion, and I know I'm in the minority there given the appeal of those games to many. I'm just happy PGI chose to make MWO for me, rather than for the masses.

I do agree with you on this point, "something better than nothing".
And PGI took a smart route on doing it compared to others.

I am glad MWO exist, but during their planning phase.....

a re-make of Mechwarrior 4 with current technology would have been gold.

but they still picked this route of f2p so the revenue will trickle in, slowly, but in the long run it will make more than a single title of $60 bucks one time buy. (again a smart move by PGI)

.... but for the community and customers?... this is such a bad deals for us....
I understand business is business and money is money.... that comes first for any companies out there....

the way it turned out for the Mechwarrior series is saddening... and that was all my rant about.

Since we are all in this state of "ehh at least we have something."

[Bud Crue]

Jayce,

Read your rant three times just to make sure I didn't misunderstand it.

So what is your point? Old people spending money on this game keep it afloat? Okay. And...

I'm serious here. What are you proposing?

Edited by Bud Crue, 29 May 2016 - 11:15 AM.

[Jetfire]

It may be a small player base, but it is a small company making the game. MWO is and will likely be a niche product forever. Maybe it will blow up someday... but I really don't expect it to, but PGI has kept the lights on for years like this so they are making enough month to survive.

[Johnny Z]

Someone got banned for cheating and is trolling with their alt........

[JayceWolf]

TLBFestus, on 29 May 2016 - 11:10 AM, said:

You are absolutely right.

If there's just one thing PGI does well, it's alienating people and fostering emnity. They should balance the game that well.

Like what I said to the other cult members... you don't have to read this, simply put. (Russ Bullock does it best)

"thanks for playing" in my case, "thanks for reading"

if you are going to jab at me because you don't agree with my point of view then here is my jab to you.

in the voice of Russ Bullock:

"Thanks for playing! and thanks for the thousands of dollars you invested in us, we will guarantee you that all your investment will push our game up to the mediocre standard... on top of that, we will make sure that only the few, the dedicated, the nerdiest will be able to voice their opinion in our utopia."

I am sorry it hurts that you invested so much time and money into a video game, to the point when a valid opinion made towards your cult is seen as an action for war.

Bud Crue, on 29 May 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

Jayce,

Read your rant three times just to make sure I didn't misunderstand it.

So what is your point? Old people spending money on this game keep it afloat? Okay. And...

I'm serious here. What are you proposing?

"the way it turned out for the Mechwarrior series is saddening... and that was all my rant about."

Edited by JayceWolf, 29 May 2016 - 11:20 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Helsbane, on 29 May 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Why do you think PGI was directly responsible for the end of MW:LL progress. They knew they couldn't survive if there was another viable option (even if it was just a mod) out there for players to choose.

I am happy someone is getting paid to make a MechWarrior game rather than what ever was going on with MWLL.

[JayceWolf]

Johnny Z, on 29 May 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

Someone got banned for cheating and is trolling with their alt........

assumption will take you ... not too far in life...
add me and watch me play online?

Johnny Z, on 29 May 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

I am happy someone is getting paid to make a MechWarrior game rather than what ever was going on with MWLL.

I agree.

[Green Mamba]

Hit the Deck, on 29 May 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

Look at the bright side, without PGI there'd be no MW game. Also, HBS' BT uses PGI's assets (Mechs 3D models) which are excellent! PGI also gave us Alex.

Mechwarrior Living legends was still around when this game started...I wont talk about the infamous Cease and Desist

[Johnny Z]

I amaze even myself how I can spot the bitter banned and the franchise hijackers in a topic so quickly and easily.

Now where are the Star Citizen fan bois?

Edited by Johnny Z, 29 May 2016 - 11:23 AM.

[Bud Crue]

JayceWolf, on 29 May 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

"the way it turned out for the Mechwarrior series is saddening... and that was all my rant about."

That's it?
That giant post and this whole thread to say that this game makes you sad?! Okay.
WP.

[JayceWolf]

Green Mamba, on 29 May 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

Mechwarrior Living legends was still around when this game started...I wont talk about the infamous Cease and Desist

oh please don't lol, it will make me cringe.

Johnny Z, on 29 May 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

I amaze even myself how I can spot the bitter banned and the franchise hijackers in a topic so quickly and easily.

Now where are the Star Citizen fan bois?

well since you didn't understand.. then let me put it in layman' terms.

- I am not a banned member, you can add me and see me play online.
- If you read my post, you are that cult-member I described, and you freaked out because someone "bad-mouth" your investment in a video game.

Bud Crue, on 29 May 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

That's it?
That giant post and this whole thread to say that this game makes you sad?! Okay.
WP.

a pretty valid rant coming from an old mechwarrior fan ain't it?

Edited by JayceWolf, 29 May 2016 - 11:29 AM.

[Bud Crue]

JayceWolf, on 29 May 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

a pretty valid rant coming from an old mechwarrior fan ain't it?

Rant is fine. I just thought given the title of the thread, that you were going somewhere with this. FYI: When I whine, without proposing something I do it down in the barracks session, in "the daily whine". You get a lot less grief for just ranting there.