80 replies to this topic

[Fate 6]

Zibmo, on 30 May 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

I would have to say it's not the mechs, for me. It's the players. I am despondent over the lack of skill I see these days. In fact, I'm more than despondent. Aside from TTK being ridiculously low, the playerbase is actually getting worse. Sigh.

most new players just aren't good, and the good veterans slowly leave the game because it's stale.

[BigBenn]

There are some things that simply shouldn't be so common, and a light mech with a massive SRM alpha is one of them. It seems that each and every drop I've been in the past few months has had a Jenner of some sort running around and woody ramming some guy from behind with a SRM alpha worthy of being gifted from an assault mech, not a light mech.

I've always said, let people take what they want for mechs and weapons. It isnt the individual weapon that is an issue, it is the massed alphas that ruin the game. Likewise, I've stated for the 1.5 years I've been here "full time" (I've watched MWO closely since the beginning), that the number of weapons allowed before the heat penalty kicks in needs to be lower, AND the heat penalty needs to be more intense. The goal of that is A: to reduce the # of mechs like the Jenner SRM woody rammers; B: diversify the types of weaponry used on mechs. Mechs that have only one kind of weaponry (lots of light mechs, etc), would need to chain fire or group weapons seperately to keep from over heating.


btw... the Kodiaks are not any more of an issue that the Dire Wlves and other such assault mechs. While certainly powerful, they are not dominating, imo. They can be dealt with well enough.

[Mcgral18]

PhoenixFire55, on 31 May 2016 - 03:04 AM, said:

Ignorance, ignorance and some more ignorance.

Yes, Kodiak can put about ~100 dmg into you within 2-3 seconds. But you know whats funny? He'll be at ~95% heat after he does. That works with every single high-alpha mech, if you play peek-a-boo with it and let them constantly have time to cool off - you lose. An organized push with high DPS mechs, be it ballistics or SRMs, turns high-alpha unbeatable overlords into a pulp in a matter of seconds. It worked during the times of PPC Stalkers, poparts and whatever else you might come up with.

But of course to do it people actually need to push, and what happens when you try to push in PUGs? ... right, 1 or 2 guys might support you but the rest will just chicken out like always. So tell me now, what is the incentive for me to take a DPS mech when I know nobody will support me if I try to play it right? Nope ... I'll take a high-alpha something and will do the hill humping like a cool kid. See where problem actually is?

As for Oxides ... I've been trolling around in mah brand new Jestah just yesterday. Got separated from a team, had an Oxide who came to kill me. I've pulsed him once, I've pulsed him twice and suddenly his CT was so red he decided to evacuate his mighty OP self. Ya'all cool kids whanna know whats the trick, eh? Simple ... 355 rated engine and lasers with 0.5s burn time that allow me to easily keep my aim right at him when he circles me or face him with the least damaged parts of my mech, etc.

But of course you can't do same if you are sporting nothing but ERLL, Gauss or LRMs in a heavy or assault with a 270 rated engine. Nope, noooo sir. Funniest thing is that you can annihilate that allpowerful Oxide at the optimal range of your weapons if you actually pay attention to what happens, but again, you can't do that when you are oh so very busy sniping or lurming hard in advanced zoom.

But please don't let me dissuade you from preaching how terribly OP Oxides and Kodiaks are. It is mildly amusing after all.

Actually, it's three quarters of a second for 80 damage, and 2-400 damage before the heat cap while alpha striking.

SRMs out brawl him, but UAC10s aren't exactly bad up close either, neither are they hot in pairs.

Edited by Mcgral18, 31 May 2016 - 08:47 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

BigBenn, on 31 May 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

There are some things that simply shouldn't be so common, and a light mech with a massive SRM alpha is one of them. It seems that each and every drop I've been in the past few months has had a Jenner of some sort running around and woody ramming some guy from behind with a SRM alpha worthy of being gifted from an assault mech, not a light mech.

If you are referring to an Oxide: you honestly think assaults have a 32 points alpha? Seriously?

If you refer to the infamous SRM6 Jenner IIC...to get such a wrecking alpha it is: rather slow, hot like hell, low on ammo and pretty fragile. If it gets close to assassinate you, you deserve it - TOTALLY

[Revis Volek]

Darian DelFord, on 30 May 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

At 180 meters the SRM spread is to large. The only thing you are going to hit are the Torso's and Arms, which is spread over 5 and 6 components if you count the head. You only core fatties from the back if they do not have situational awareness. Skill on Skill assaults win the majority of engagements.

The only reason the OXIDE does as well as it does is they attack when an enemy is distracted or makes a mistake which happens often. However the same can be said for most other mechs, that have a target that is other wise engaged with another.

The spread doesnt get wider as the SRM travel, they are what they are after about 70 meters and are good until they explode. I have done extensive testing. no real difference between 70-180 as far as i can tell.

[meteorol]

everything that kills my is OP and kills the game

[Barantor]

The Basilisk, on 31 May 2016 - 04:51 AM, said:

Risking an educated guess I'll say 95% of the players would never stand either removing Mechlab or bringing it to heal by applying TT-Rules. (R&R costs, modification costs, Structure, Heat-sinks and Engine are always hardwired and can't be changed, weapons can also just switched within their category)

I think it would be around 70% rather than 95%, since there is a pretty good calling for stock mode and such.

The mechlab complexity is what makes this game unbalanced and not new-player friendly though, so it will never really blossom unless something is changed there.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mcgral18, on 31 May 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Actually, it's three quarters of a second for 80 damage, and 2-400 damage before the heat cap while alpha striking.

I take it you don't own the mech? On a fully mastered KDK-3, double tapping 4 UAC10's for 80 points of damage is between +50% and +65% heat depending on the map. If you add any kind of lasers for ~100 dmg as I've suggested in my post that'll be exactly around +90% - +95% heat. Needless to say it can not even remotely repeat that. Anything other that full alpha is much lower damage and/or can be far easier spread. Even a double tap alpha spreads the damage on a moving target, unless of course you stand still and stare into the barrels.

[PhoenixFire55]

Der Hesse, on 31 May 2016 - 04:32 AM, said:

The community could adapt to the Direwolf because it had the disadvantages you mentioned. Which one of those does the Kodiak have?

Well, for starters it is huge. Bigger frontal profile than a Dire or even an Atlas. It is amazingly easy to put all the damage in whichever torso you want. Clan AC's worsen the matter as they require much more face time to do their damage. Apart from the common belief KDK is also very ammo limited, unless you sacrifice engine rating, which in turn means less mobility and slower torso turn rates. Now if you'll try shooting mobile targets like lights and mediums at ranges of ~400m you'll waste a lot of ammo on misses and damaging useless components, and KDK is simply not able to close the distance with those even with a 400XL. 90% of mechs in MWO are able to outrun a KDK, which means they dictate the distance of engagement and not the other way around. Above all else (for me at least when I tryed it) is heat concerns. You either need to shoot 2 and 2 without double tap or risk overheating on more or less every shot. Apart from all the above, just like most big mechs with primary weapons in torsoes it has a hard time aiming up and down, so fighting on a rough terrain puts it at a huge disadvantage, and as we all know the most feared KDK-3 doesn't have JJs.

All that said, I've stared into meta KDK's several times this weekend in a quad AC5 BlackWidow. With decent pilots in KDK's it was an even exchange. They can put out more raw damage while I can put out much more concentrated damage while doing far better spreading myself. The further away we've started trading the more advantage I had. Of course statring at about 200m doesn't give me (or rather most mechs) any chance, but same can be said about an Atlas, etc.

[Bud Crue]

The above thread in a nut shell:
Q: What is killing the game?
A: Oxides, Kodiak 3s, the meta, Clan streaks, Clan players, IS players, structure quirks, poor team work, LRMs and lermy players, bad players in general, bad aim, TTK.

Anything else?

No wonder PGI ignores us.

[Moldur]

High alphas are so good because not just because of ease of use but also because so many players don't know when other people are 'bluffing'.

If you pay attention to it, you see this mistake all the time when playing a clan mech. You can be totally flankable, but you put 54 damage on a guy who gets the short end of the stick while peeking you and they go back into cover and wait to peek again, even though they could totally get me if they ran up on my corner since I'm at 60-90% heat probably..

Bud Crue, on 31 May 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

The above thread in a nut shell:
Q: What is killing the game?
A: Oxides, Kodiak 3s, the meta, Clan streaks, Clan players, IS players, structure quirks, poor team work, LRMs and lermy players, bad players in general, bad aim, TTK.

Anything else?

No wonder PGI ignores us.

Pretty much. As Mystere said on page 1, he and others prefer an old meta to the current one. It is a bit of anecdotal proof that all these balance updates and changes are really PGI chasing their tail and spending months to grant us genie wishes that always come out wrong anyway. The game rarely gets better for everyone, it just favors different groups of players while pissing off others in a sort of zero-net-gain system. I am glad they stopped listening because maybe just maybe they will dedicate more time to something other than the broken cycle I described.

[Baba Yogi]

LordNothing, on 31 May 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

you know whats really killing the game.

campy lermy players, huge maps and the lack of will to engage in actual combat. these three things combined result in horrible gameplay. any one isnt too bad and two is tolerable. but all 3 is hell.

be grateful in the queue you are in. T2 is completely different animal, synchronized pincer pushes, highly accurate enemies and fully decked meta mechs etc. In some ways its good to present a challenge but that leaves no room for messing around or you get destroyed without mercy most of the time. Wish i could go back to bein t3, players there are generally good enough shots to be a threat yet teamwork is generally bad enough that you can get away with anything if you play it well.

[LordNothing]

Lordhammer, on 31 May 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

be grateful in the queue you are in. T2 is completely different animal, synchronized pincer pushes, highly accurate enemies and fully decked meta mechs etc. In some ways its good to present a challenge but that leaves no room for messing around or you get destroyed without mercy most of the time. Wish i could go back to bein t3, players there are generally good enough shots to be a threat yet teamwork is generally bad enough that you can get away with anything if you play it well.

ive been gopher holing in and out of t2 for the past several months. the first time i crossed the threshold i actually had a number of good games. the game play was aggressive, the way i like it. people wont spend 12 minutes camping and then get stomped. eventually the pendulum turned and i ended up getting blasted back to the pits of t3. this has happened twice more since. i figure a couple more really good scores to pick up that last pixel and i will be right back in t2 again.

but the past month there seems to be a plague of sedentary game play that is seriously making the game boring. when polar came out i thought it was a good map, introducing a different way to play the game. but then when plexus came out it became the only way to play the game. il be in an erppc mech and the team wont even get close enough to give me half damage. people firing lerms that blow up 500 meters before they reach their targets.

[wanderer]

Quote

wait till they release the mounted long tom. competitiveness will be back. 1shot everything.

LT Artillery cannons (thats the cut-down Mech version of the full sized LT) fire a whopping 20-point hit (at the impact point) that's down to half that 30m out and zero by 60m from the impact point. And the smaller arty cannons deal less. Having an AOE effect does mean it'll at least ding a light if it hits anywhere near, though.

[wanderer]

Quote

T2 is completely different animal, synchronized pincer pushes, highly accurate enemies and fully decked meta mechs etc

Are you somehow playing a different MWO server than I am? Because I keep running into the same people I dealt with in T3, and they never seem to change. It's a bit better when there's enough T1s since fewer Mr. Potatoheads have crawled up the ranks yet.

[Mcgral18]

PhoenixFire55, on 31 May 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

I take it you don't own the mech? On a fully mastered KDK-3, double tapping 4 UAC10's for 80 points of damage is between +50% and +65% heat depending on the map. If you add any kind of lasers for ~100 dmg as I've suggested in my post that'll be exactly around +90% - +95% heat. Needless to say it can not even remotely repeat that. Anything other that full alpha is much lower damage and/or can be far easier spread. Even a double tap alpha spreads the damage on a moving target, unless of course you stand still and stare into the barrels.

If you trigger 8x Ghost Heat, you can get two full (no risk) Double tap alpha strikes (and a third normal) for 200 damage. If you wait that 0.5s difference, you get nearly twice that.
If your last UAC alpha jams, you can get 5 alphas and the additional 3 UAC10s also without risk of overheating (230 dam)


7 salvos, at 280 damage
Without a coolshot, mind you, on a heat neutral map

Praise be RNGeesus, you can get less heat and less damage



Now, if you would kindly stop lying to protect this overperforming robot, that'd be great.
It's common practice to pop your cockpit above whatever cover, then let loose 200 points of damage in a matter of seconds, then falling back.

Don't build a bad robot to prove something isn't good.

[dervishx5]

Motion to OP to replace Kodiak/Srm Jenner with PGI.

Remember when the Arctic Cheetah killed the game?

[Gas Guzzler]

The only time I feel at a disadvantage against SRM lights is when I am in a high alpha laser vomit build that runs really hot, or a long ranged hot build (like ER LL boating). Otherwise, they typically take one hit and realize that it isn't worth it to stick around and try to back stab me later if they survive the rest of the match.


In other news-

100 ton mechs have a lot of firepower.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mcgral18, on 31 May 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

If you trigger 8x Ghost Heat, you can get two full (no risk) Double tap alpha strikes (and a third normal) for 200 damage. If you wait that 0.5s difference, you get nearly twice that.
If your last UAC alpha jams, you can get 5 alphas and the additional 3 UAC10s also without risk of overheating (230 dam)


7 salvos, at 280 damage
Without a coolshot, mind you, on a heat neutral map

Praise be RNGeesus, you can get less heat and less damage



Now, if you would kindly stop lying to protect this overperforming robot, that'd be great.
It's common practice to pop your cockpit above whatever cover, then let loose 200 points of damage in a matter of seconds, then falling back.

Don't build a bad robot to prove something isn't good.

Honestly, whatever. I'm not stupid enough to actually pay for any mech packs so I've done my testing on a tournament client. I can't do two double tap alphas without sending it close to overheat no matter what. Maybe you are wrong, maybe tourney client is bugged and supposedly mastered mechs aren't mastered at all, doesn't matter. What does matter is that your facetime during those two alphas and in between is way above what is considered a quick poke and you are likely to recieve much more damage then you dish out. The whole argument was about 100 points of damage in one alpha, not several shots, and one alpha isn't anywhere near enough to kill a mech like certain people here seem to think (unless its some stupid stationary medium). Plus, you can't do more than 80 in one alpha even if you do have other weapons without getting your arms over terrain as well, and thats even more exposure and even more facetime.

You think KDK is OP, be my guest. I don't seem to have any trouble against them whatsoever in either Battlemaster, BlackWidow or even a damn Jester. But then again, people here think that Oxides and ArcticCheetahs are OP as well.

Meh.

[Gas Guzzler]

PhoenixFire55, on 31 May 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

Honestly, whatever. I'm not stupid enough to actually pay for any mech packs so I've done my testing on a tournament client. I can't do two double tap alphas without sending it close to overheat no matter what. Maybe you are wrong, maybe tourney client is bugged and supposedly mastered mechs aren't mastered at all, doesn't matter. What does matter is that your facetime during those two alphas and in between is way above what is considered a quick poke and you are likely to recieve much more damage then you dish out. The whole argument was about 100 points of damage in one alpha, not several shots, and one alpha isn't anywhere near enough to kill a mech like certain people here seem to think (unless its some stupid stationary medium). Plus, you can't do more than 80 in one alpha even if you do have other weapons without getting your arms over terrain as well, and thats even more exposure and even more facetime.

You think KDK is OP, be my guest. I don't seem to have any trouble against them whatsoever in either Battlemaster, BlackWidow or even a damn Jester. But then again, people here think that Oxides and ArcticCheetahs are OP as well.

Meh.

How many DHS does your quad UAC-10 KDK have?

I don't know if I would say the mech is RIDICULOUSLY OP, but I think it could stand to lose its quirks (at least the agility ones anyway).