61 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

This is just a general, pointless discussion. Not part of some agenda to nerf the Kodiak or make the Jenner great again. And for the uninitiated, TTK means Time To Kill. Low TTK = people die faster. High TTK = people die slower.

It occurs to me that trying to sneak around the enemy force to accomplish crossfire or quick ambushes is a lot less effective in MWO than in low TTK games like CounterStrike (or, indeed, real life). In a game like CounterStrike, a single shooter with an AK-47 can cause havoc if he get behind enemy lines, because he is likely to get 1 or 2 kills before the enemy even knows what's going on.

If you dropped TTK significantly, then it would be a disaster if an enemy light mech snuck up on your position from behind. An ACH or JR7 IIC would be able to take out one or two mechs in seconds, and potentially escape before the team could react.

Now, a lot of people, myself included, have been asking for higher TTK. We feel that it's off-putting to see a 100-ton assault mech reduced to a puddle of molten slag in seconds. Mechwarrior combat should be slow, methodical, strategical, compared to the rapid twitch frenzy of other game.

But doesn't higher TTK mean that you're punishing light mechs? Their ability to harass and do surprise attacks become less and less meaningful as TTK goes up, surely?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

[Steinar Bergstol]

I'm not so sure a higher TTK punishes light mechs in general all that much. After all, low TTK is what you have in TT Battletech for light mechs in the first Place because one hit from a big weapon would murderkill a light mech. That's what made mechs like the Panther armed with a single PPC as their primary gun such a threat. A single PPC shot could take out a significant part of a light mech. Not so in MWO. So, basically what I'm saying is that the thing that's harmed by a high TTK (due to increased armor and internal structure) isn't light mechs in general, but rather Heavy weapons and the mechs relying on said weapons. Light scouts might even be weaker with a lower TTK because they could be taken out by a single salvo, or even a single shot from a big weapon.

Edited by Steinar Bergstol, 31 May 2016 - 03:00 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Well, a Mech that sneaks into the rear of the enemy force always can deal serious damage. It doesn't have to be a Light - i do this on a regular basis using Assaults. Happens more often when using StormCrow or YLW.

The issue is as Steinar said - with convergence smaller weapons are in a better place then bigger weapons. When said Panther slips behind his PPC should draw blood with the very first shot. Or consider the AC20
But the Spider should not - it's simpler to get into the rear of the enemy with a Spider - and the damage is not done by its guns but simply because it's there.
With a push at the front door, you can't turn. So its not necessary that the medium lasers of the spider draw blood with the first shot. (or include Jenner or death by Papercut cheeta - yes paper cut not poor mans deathstar)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 31 May 2016 - 04:08 AM.

[Khobai]

The game needs higher TTK because it sucks with low TTK. It makes critical hits pointless when entire locations get instakilled. Mech locations should get shredded apart more slowly by critical hits. Not get destroyed all at once.

As for light mechs... The role of light mechs should not be killing other mechs. The role of light mechs should be information/sensor warfare. And completing objectives that require speed/mobility as opposed to brute force. Thats not to say light mechs shouldnt be able to kill things, but it shouldnt be their primary strength.

The problem is the game has no information warfare and no role warfare. It also has no gamemodes that require all four weight classes in order to win. All the game has is killing. And light mechs are always going to be inferior at that compared to heavier mechs.

PGI originally stated the game had four pillars. But two of those four pillars are minimally viable at best. Information and role warfare are by far the weakest parts of MWO. That and the general lack of depth/immersion from the gamemodes, which are currently all just lame variations of skirmish.

Edited by Khobai, 31 May 2016 - 04:41 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Higher TTK through the amount of firepower we can output. I did some more thinking on the lower heat cap, higher dissipation ive seen people talk about. I do agree it needs a lower heat cap, idk about more dissipation, the dissipation is fine where it is. But lower the heat cap to like 40, make us have to chain fire, or slowly fire big guns. Alpha strikes and group fire should be the rarity, not the norm, at least not group fire of 8 ERML, maybe 2 at a time. As for PPCs, 1 shot at a time, in a stagger fired chain, not as 6 all at once.

Then add in more fizzicks related things, like flying around a corner at 150kph for a light mech, would send it sliding across the road and slamming into a wall, falling down.....leaving it horribly exposed. Even bigger mechs would do the same thing, just not going 150kph. Add in water slowing us down, cuz even ankle deep water slows a person down, cant imagine its much different for a mech. Rescale mechs so they arent all the size of houses and 55t the size of 85t and 85t the size of 105t...

[Queen of England]

I don't know if I'd say"punish", but high TTK promotes deathballing as a primary strategy, certainly.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Khobai, on 31 May 2016 - 04:36 AM, said:

The problem is the game has no information warfare and no role warfare. It also has no gamemodes that require all four weight classes in order to win. All the game has is killing. And light mechs are always going to be inferior at that compared to heavier mechs.

That is yet another area PVE is superior to PVP. PVP is just about killing everything as quickly as you can. PVE, if not made to be a timed shoot house, like Armored Warfare, then you can slowly, and methodically, use tactics, info warfare and all that, to properly plan and execute a move.

I run around the BZ in the Academy wishing I had a light mech with me right now......So he could go around and find what I need to shoot, so I stop getting shot up my *** by mechs spawning behind me.

But yeah, Light anything has never had the primary role of destroying things, players just like to think they should be able to.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Higher TtK means light mech agility is amplified in effectiveness.

[Fut]

Alistair Winter, on 31 May 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

If you dropped TTK significantly, then it would be a disaster if an enemy light mech snuck up on your position from behind. An ACH or JR7 IIC would be able to take out one or two mechs in seconds, and potentially escape before the team could react.

Although I like that you're spitballing ideas, I can't get behind this one... at all.

Mechs that die in seconds don't feel like Mechs.
This game already suffers from this problem, so lower TTK would only make it feel more like CounterStrike with robot costumes.

[Mycrus]

As a retired light mech pilot... this game badly needs higher time to kill.... contrary to popular belief, ganking fatties gets old eventually.
.

[Alistair Winter]

Fut, on 31 May 2016 - 06:14 AM, said:

Although I like that you're spitballing ideas, I can't get behind this one... at all.

Mechs that die in seconds don't feel like Mechs.
This game already suffers from this problem, so lower TTK would only make it feel more like CounterStrike with robot costumes.

Just to clarify, I'm not spitballing ideas. I'm trying to decide if I've understood a key element in balancing this game. If my hypothesis is correct, then increasing TTK will only result in further imbalance between light mechs and heavy mechs. And light mechs are already pretty unpopular, relatively speaking.

[Chrithu]

You got a good Point. As for what some of the other's said: I don't see (at least in PUGland) how we can get even more Deathballing.

In my view a longer TTK opens room to survive bad decisions. In so far it would be a way to make the game more friendly for new players. Whether or not it would be necessary I do not know. I don't mind either way. Higher TTK would be just as fine with me as leaving it where it is.

As for lights having a harder time with higher TTK: I think the main problem with lights in general is that the Info Warfare aspect of the game is lacking too much complexity (read is too shallow) to make lights a viable asset outside of sheer firepower and agility.

[Alistair Winter]

Steinar Bergstol, on 31 May 2016 - 02:58 AM, said:

I'm not so sure a higher TTK punishes light mechs in general all that much. After all, low TTK is what you have in TT Battletech for light mechs in the first Place because one hit from a big weapon would murderkill a light mech. That's what made mechs like the Panther armed with a single PPC as their primary gun such a threat. A single PPC shot could take out a significant part of a light mech. Not so in MWO. So, basically what I'm saying is that the thing that's harmed by a high TTK (due to increased armor and internal structure) isn't light mechs in general, but rather Heavy weapons and the mechs relying on said weapons. Light scouts might even be weaker with a lower TTK because they could be taken out by a single salvo, or even a single shot from a big weapon.

I don't think TT is a good way of looking at it at all, because it's a turn-based tabletop game with hexes and stuff. TT doesn't really do a good job of simulating what happens when a Locust with 6xSPL is dancing around a Dire Wolf with 2xcERPPC and 2xcGauss, trying to evade fire. The dynamic changes a lot in an actual FPS versus a TT strategy game.

To understand the dynamic better, I think you have to multiply everything by ten. What if every weapon had 10 times the rate of fire and 10 times less heat. Imagine if you could fire 6xSPL 10 times every 2.5 seconds, as opposed to 1 time. You could do a total of 24 * 10 * 2 = 480 damage in 5 seconds. Now compare this to TTK lowered by a factor of 10. You would then do 24 * 0.1 * 3 = 4.8 damage in 5 seconds.

Which of these scenarios are likely to benefit light mechs? If a Locust can do 480 damage in 5 seconds, then it's basically going to insta-kill any mech within range, unless it gets spotted and killed first. Similarly, if a Dire Wolf is in a sniping war with a Stalker, they both have enough firepower to basically instakill each other as soon as they have clear line of sight.

If a Locust could do 480 damage in 5 seconds, then it would win any engagement as long as it entered optimal range unnoticed. A lone Dire Wolf would generally never be able to react fast enough to counter-attack and defeat a Locust that snuck up behind it, even though the Dire Wolf only needed to land a single alpha strike to get the kill.

If, on the other hand, the Locust could only do 4,8 damage in 5 seconds, then an ambush would only provide a minimal advantage. The Dire Wolf's teammates would have all the time in the world to chase off the Locust before it did too much damage. Backstabbing Oxides and Cheetahs wouldn't really be viable, because they wouldn't be able to do much damage before their opponents could regroup properly. And it would be all about focus fire rather than who gets the first shot.

That's my take on it, anyway. The higher you increase TTK, the less emphasis there is on individual players getting into good position. Higher TTK means there is more emphasis on grouping up (e.g. deatballing) to win each engagement with superior numbers.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Alistair Winter, on 31 May 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

I don't think TT is a good way of looking at it at all, because it's a turn-based tabletop game with hexes and stuff. TT doesn't really do a good job of simulating what happens when a Locust with 6xSPL is dancing around a Dire Wolf with 2xcERPPC and 2xcGauss, trying to evade fire. The dynamic changes a lot in an actual FPS versus a TT strategy game.

To understand the dynamic better, I think you have to multiply everything by ten. What if every weapon had 10 times the rate of fire and 10 times less heat. Imagine if you could fire 6xSPL 10 times every 2.5 seconds, as opposed to 1 time. You could do a total of 24 * 10 * 2 = 480 damage in 5 seconds. Now compare this to TTK lowered by a factor of 10. You would then do 24 * 0.1 * 3 = 4.8 damage in 5 seconds.

Which of these scenarios are likely to benefit light mechs? If a Locust can do 480 damage in 5 seconds, then it's basically going to insta-kill any mech within range, unless it gets spotted and killed first. Similarly, if a Dire Wolf is in a sniping war with a Stalker, they both have enough firepower to basically instakill each other as soon as they have clear line of sight.

If a Locust could do 480 damage in 5 seconds, then it would win any engagement as long as it entered optimal range unnoticed. A lone Dire Wolf would generally never be able to react fast enough to counter-attack and defeat a Locust that snuck up behind it, even though the Dire Wolf only needed to land a single alpha strike to get the kill.

If, on the other hand, the Locust could only do 4,8 damage in 5 seconds, then an ambush would only provide a minimal advantage. The Dire Wolf's teammates would have all the time in the world to chase off the Locust before it did too much damage. Backstabbing Oxides and Cheetahs wouldn't really be viable, because they wouldn't be able to do much damage before their opponents could regroup properly. And it would be all about focus fire rather than who gets the first shot.

That's my take on it, anyway. The higher you increase TTK, the less emphasis there is on individual players getting into good position. Higher TTK means there is more emphasis on grouping up (e.g. deatballing) to win each engagement with superior numbers.

Yeah, well, if the Locust went in to a position where he could be focused and chased off, that is more a fault of the Locust then TTK.

No mech should go it alone, not lights backstabbing, not assaults, not heavies or anything. The TTK for a "backstab" already is "dead before you can react......ive been 2 shot before I even saw what was happening. Ofc, the shots make no sound, so its just like nothing is happening, then suddenly "boom dead"

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Uh... my 6srm6 Jenner IIC can already kill any mech in the game in less than 10 seconds...

Granted I play it like a mech proctologist but if I get behind you, you're gonna feel it.

[Rebas Kradd]

Alistair Winter, on 31 May 2016 - 06:18 AM, said:

Just to clarify, I'm not spitballing ideas. I'm trying to decide if I've understood a key element in balancing this game. If my hypothesis is correct, then increasing TTK will only result in further imbalance between light mechs and heavy mechs. And light mechs are already pretty unpopular, relatively speaking.

I think they'll increase their imbalance in terms of ability to kill, possibly. Although I'd point out that the meta tendency to skimp on rear and leg armor still gives sneaky lights an opening.

But then again, lights aren't necessarily supposed to be killing machines. A big part of their in-game responsibility is supposed to be scouting and information warfare. So I see no great loss in taking away a little of their ability to straight-up kill Atlai. That's not supposed to be their job anyway.

Of course, like Khobai said, if you're going to have information warfare, you'll need to redesign the gamemodes to make a place for it...

[Aresye]

Khobai, on 31 May 2016 - 04:36 AM, said:

As for light mechs... The role of light mechs should not be killing other mechs. The role of light mechs should be information/sensor warfare. And completing objectives that require speed/mobility as opposed to brute force. Thats not to say light mechs shouldnt be able to kill things, but it shouldnt be their primary strength.

If Overwatch has proven anything to me, it's that it doesn't matter how good you diversify roles or give unique, teamwork oriented abilities to the various characters. Teamwork and casual don't mix, because nobody wants to be the tank, or the healer, even when it very clearly says, "Team Tips: No Support Heros."

The majority of casual MWO players aren't going to pick up a light mech if the chances of them getting kills ends up even lower than it already is.

[Khobai]

Quote

The majority of casual MWO players aren't going to pick up a light mech if the chances of them getting kills ends up even lower than it already is.

Because the games reward structure is based solely around how much damage you do. Nothing else really matters.

Believe me if information/role warfare was actually a thing and you got rewarded for it then people would WANT to play lights

Quote

Teamwork and casual don't mix

Obviously which is why groups and pugs need to be kept seperate, even in CW. But PGI screwed that up royally.

World of Tanks doesnt have a problem with groups vs pugs. I dont know why its such a huge issue in MWO. They copied world of tanks for everything else why dont they copy their queue system too? When it doubt copy WoT...thats the only rule PGI needs to follow.

Edited by Khobai, 31 May 2016 - 08:01 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Alistair Winter, on 31 May 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

This is just a general, pointless discussion. Not part of some agenda to nerf the Kodiak or make the Jenner great again. And for the uninitiated, TTK means Time To Kill. Low TTK = people die faster. High TTK = people die slower.

It occurs to me that trying to sneak around the enemy force to accomplish crossfire or quick ambushes is a lot less effective in MWO than in low TTK games like CounterStrike (or, indeed, real life). In a game like CounterStrike, a single shooter with an AK-47 can cause havoc if he get behind enemy lines, because he is likely to get 1 or 2 kills before the enemy even knows what's going on.

If you dropped TTK significantly, then it would be a disaster if an enemy light mech snuck up on your position from behind. An ACH or JR7 IIC would be able to take out one or two mechs in seconds, and potentially escape before the team could react.

Now, a lot of people, myself included, have been asking for higher TTK. We feel that it's off-putting to see a 100-ton assault mech reduced to a puddle of molten slag in seconds. Mechwarrior combat should be slow, methodical, strategical, compared to the rapid twitch frenzy of other game.

But doesn't higher TTK mean that you're punishing light mechs? Their ability to harass and do surprise attacks become less and less meaningful as TTK goes up, surely?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Yes and no. I say, "Yes" because it reduces the ability of a Light mech to be a sneaky backstabbing bugger. But, I also say, "No" because Lights should serve as opportunistic hunters, harrassers, and anti-Light mech killers instead of what they currently are in game. In fact, to take that one step further, I'd say that the game doesn't really actively support the role of Light mechs because there are no side objectives to remove or react to, there are no convoys to blow up, etc. and scouting isn't really a thing. TTK needs to be reduces dramatically because it is absurd that you can lose a limb in a single salvo by peaking out for a second. Case in point, in my Awesome - go ahead and laugh if you will - last night with full armor on all locations, I turned a corner and lost my right arm, aka my gun arm, to two Class Assaults that were some 500m or more away. That is 52 armor on the the AWS arm burned down to orange internals in the flash of a second. I'm not some "no twisting" tier 5 **** so it wasn't even that. It was there, I peaked, and then it was gone.

Another thing to take into account, and this isn't an anti-Kodiak comment either, but look at this:

- My Awesome 9M with 3x PPCs at 540m (max range for PPCs) can deal 30 damage for 28.5 heat and can do so every 4s
- A KDK-3 or DWF with 4x UAC/10s at 540m (max range for UAC/10s) can deal 40 damage for 13.5 heat, can do another 40 damage 0.5s later and then follow it up with another 40 damage 2s after the double tap; that's 80 damage in 0.5s for 27 heat

The Awesome has less armor, more speed, lower weapon mounts, and faster projectiles. BUT, the problem is that the damage ratio is way off in favor of the Kodiak/Direwolf, as it should be. The KDK/DWF are the larger beasts and, as such, can carry more weaponry. None of that is in question. The question, though, is the same above for the Light mechs. Where is the place in the game for the Awesome, especially compared to the KDK/DW? For mechs that are faster, like the Dragon, what is the point of the speed when it cannot be harnessed and utilized to its full effectiveness?

In summary, TTK needs to be reduced in a major way. But, the problem will always remain that if we don't have supportive functionality for all mech types, lowering TTK won't help anyone. Instead, it'll just drag the games out longer and create scenarios where players drift away from ammo based weapons to energy based builds because the lowered TTK creates too much of a strain on ammo builds.

Honestly, I don't know what the solution is.

[LordNothing]

ttk for lights attacking assault is mostly a function of failing to put enough armor on the back side. sure pros front load, but pros also know how to deal with lights and to stay with the group. if you are routinely getting back shat by lights, maybe you need to put more armor back there. or perhaps your tactics need work, are you lagging behind the team? you might as well convert your mech to a roach coach because they are coming to feast.