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Assaults Are On The Fine Line Of Useless


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Poll: Do the assaults need some love (53 member(s) have cast votes)

Should the bigger slower guy be harder too kill

  1. Yes with more armor (20 votes [37.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.74%

  2. Yes with higher energy resistance (8 votes [15.09%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 15.09%

  3. Yes but some other idea please post and say why (5 votes [9.43%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.43%

  4. No I think their fine (19 votes [35.85%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.85%

  5. No I think assaults are too tanky (1 votes [1.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.89%

  6. No they should be nerfed (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

What mechs do you think the need love the most the choices are from what I think need it

  1. Awesome (4 votes [7.55%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.55%

  2. Atlas (9 votes [16.98%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.98%

  3. Highlander (7 votes [13.21%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.21%

  4. Highlander IIC (5 votes [9.43%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.43%

  5. Stalker (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. Victor (17 votes [32.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.08%

  7. Other please say what you think (11 votes [20.75%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.75%

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#21 Wibbledtodeath

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 02:20 AM

I jumped in a king crab the other day, just for nostalgia.

Killed 8 of the enemy team without breaking a sweat.

I can't do that in ANY heavy (and frankly I tend to play meds/heavies- and KC isn't THE best assault).

You need positioning and support to succeed- Assaults may not be the most consistent performers, but when they shine, they shine bright. In no other chassis can you so easily turn the balance of a game with a well timed push.

#22 MechWarrior849305

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 04:00 AM

KDK-3 is useless for sure Posted Image

#23 Kynesis

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 07:54 PM

The relative ease with which we can core mechs is the real problem and it's universal, it's just most obvious with assaults.

In an effort to address it though you'd have to consider making some significant changes and in that, it's difficult to devise a system that is both true to the BattleTech / MechWarrior brand and whose mechanics are transparent to players.

PGI have obviously thought about this, my ideas just off the top of my head follow. They all necessarily diverge from traditional mech specs / mechanics though.

1. Buff internal hit points - this is the least intrusive but also arguably only effective in the short term (made obsolete by power creep)
2. Alter the way armour works, making it ablative for example where the first stage is more resistant to damage (ie introducing damage reduction). Ultimately not too different from simply buffing internals (or external armour) and introduces more complex & non-transparent math & potentially introducing balance issues that favour extremes of armour values & corner cases.

3. Always spread internal damage - seems to me (for now) like the best option, it diverges only slightly from the core rules and directly addresses the issue of mechs being cored too frequently / easily, without penalising good play or supporting... lazy / bad play.

Exactly how internal damage should be spread would need to be mathed out. In keeping with the principles of the core rules though it should be a fairly simple system.

You could start out with a principle of simply taking any damage that doesn't outright destroy an internal structure or component and spread half of the damage that a component / limb takes among all adjacent components and continue sharing half of each stage of damage among their adjacent components / limbs.

Edited by Kynesis, 14 July 2016 - 04:39 PM.


#24 762 NATO

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Posted 13 July 2016 - 09:20 PM

While I realize there were some dark, bad days of match making, BV calculations would change everything. Call everyone a 5/5 pilot in Tier 5; 1/1 for Tier 1. 2/2 Oxide is BV equivalent of a 3/3 Atlas? Ok, NP. (I didn't do math there, I may later.). BV of a mech shown in your mechbay, including your Tier, used as a calculation in MM (+/-1500) would be an amazing thing. It may even allow for such greatness as location specific quirks (like PPC buffs to Whammy arms).

_edit_ This may even prevent things like PGI going up against 228 and PGI thinking KDKs need massive nerfs or just lights in general, just sayin'.

Edited by 762 NATO, 13 July 2016 - 09:25 PM.


#25 VonBruinwald

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Posted 14 July 2016 - 02:47 AM

Damage Reduction/Resistance defeats the point of assaults having extra armour.

Damage Spread would be a much better option...

Damage spread applies to external Armour only.
It is the distribution of damage towards a 'mechs extremities (Head>Centre>Side>Arms/Legs
It's spread is a % based on MechTonnage/10 (35tons=3.5%, 70tons=7%, 100tons=10%)


Examples:
If an Atlas is hit by a 50point alpha in the CT 10% of that damage (5) is transferred to the LT/RT
If an Atlas is hit by a 25point alpha in the LT 10% of that damage (2.5) is transferred to the LA/LL
If it is hit in the Leg that sections receives full damage since there is nowhere for it to propagate to.

If a section lacks armour it still receives internal damage from propagation.

#26 Miles McQuiston

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Posted 14 July 2016 - 12:18 PM

Atlas has low mounted hardpoints. It is ineffective at ranges over 300 meters. Don't believe me, trade a KDK-3 (happens to have 4 fairly high mounted ballistic hardpoints... hmm was someone sitting around thinking how can we make something that looks like an Atlas, but you know doesn't suck in all the ways an Atlas does) from range see who wins. Hell, trade a timber from range see who wins. Point is buffing armor only makes it a crummy mech that can soak more damage. Move the Ballistics to the shoulder and lasers to as high on arms as possible and maybe it would be decent but still outclassed in any battle except a face hug.

Is the Atlas deadly at less than 300 meters.... yes, but the number of engagements under 300 meters where you aren't going to take a ton of focus fire is small. So options are to just hang out while others trade at range and hope for an opening later in the game or lead a push and face tank damage. Either way not a very interesting game for the pilot, and if the enemy is running assaults that can trade at range, well GG.

This is where a player will make an argument about positioning and how good positioning will let you be great in an Atlas every time. Well if you are grouped maybe, but in PUG you will spend most of your time chasing the pack and hoping not to be truly out of position. The problem is some Assaults are much better than others by the fact that when originally modeled their weapons were placed in an area that makes sense for how MWO is played.

The good news is that if PGI wanted to fix it they could. However instead we will just have 4UAC10s high mounted stomping those who play anything else.

#27 Kynesis

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Posted 14 July 2016 - 04:49 PM

View PostVonBruinwald, on 14 July 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

Damage Reduction/Resistance defeats the point of assaults having extra armour.

Damage Spread would be a much better option...


While spreading damage internally is less effective (and almost certainly isn't a comprehensive solution), spreading damage over external armour devalues the core gameplay mechanic of targeting locations. It's worth considering (and may ultimately prove necessary) but the spread would have to be fractional to avoid screwing with core gameplay.

#28 762 NATO

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Posted 15 July 2016 - 10:53 PM

So to start with: look up the Kodiak in sarna.net. compare with the atlas. The Kodiak was always supposed to be better, plus it is a Totem mech that people have wanted for a very long time (Timber 2 and Stone Rhino, PGI come on). Yes, the atlas is nowhere near the beast it is in TT. Do you want this to act like TT? Would you like to aim at a side torso for an XL check and hit the opposite arm with half you alpha? Didn't think so.


#29 Tibbnak

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Posted 16 July 2016 - 01:47 PM

What if instead, when you killed an assault via any method besides headshot, they ejected in an elemental and continued the fight?

#30 762 NATO

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Posted 16 July 2016 - 09:45 PM

View PostTibbnak, on 16 July 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

What if instead, when you killed an assault via any method besides headshot, they ejected in an elemental and continued the fight?


Or you could go play Titanfall or Hawken...

#31 Tibbnak

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 09:30 AM

View Post762 NATO, on 16 July 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

Or you could go play Titanfall or Hawken...

Or heavy gear assault. Salt.

#32 Alienized

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 11:30 AM

now that im tier 1 im still playing the highlanders.
assaults are dead? no. they just need the team to perform with them instead of against them.
if a bloody highlander fights some mechs then you better support it instead of running away from the fight.

thats all you need to know when you have one in your team.

results like this can happen quite often then even with a highlander.


Posted Image


the problem with highlanders is that they have a max engine of 325.
even if you put a XL in you cant get much better weaponry in it since all the slots can be filled easily with hard hitting weapons even without XL.

that means: its just slow whatever you do.
that counts for so many assaults and everyone knows it usually.
and still everyone keeps running away from them.
this is the main reason why they die early without beeing a asset to the team. happens in each tier.

Edited by Alienized, 17 July 2016 - 11:34 AM.


#33 TheWatchman

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Posted 17 July 2016 - 08:54 PM

I personally do not play assaults but I can easily beat a lot of them 1v1 in a nerfed pirates bane. Even if I had just a small laser its just a matter of time.

As one of the first comments mentioned medium boats dish it enough over time to hurt them more than should be needed.

In a heavy which i specialize in its easy life for me as I can take any with damage over 60 and wreck face with any assault.

As someone who isn't an assault pilot thats not so bad for me but shows the imbalance. I should be terrified of them in mediums, worried in heavies and very cautious in lights. There are lots of variables to consider in fighting between different weight classes but they are the big badasses of battletech. I see them and go "Oh easy target, just gotta walk around them and avoid their front. (thats with all classes I might add).

Suggestion: better top speeds OR acceleration. Make them a bit tankier though not unbreakable. (seriously they kill each other waaaaay faster than heavies or mediums do themselves.)

#34 Spleenslitta

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 01:48 PM

I think all mechs are tough enough. Even the Locust. The problem is our ability to mount massive amounts of firepower onto our mechs.
The ability to mount enough AC, lasers and who knows what else to kill a medium mech within seconds is the biggest problem.

If we had an energy and recoil system we wouldn't be able to shoot so often and all our mechs would be harder to kill.

#35 insanoex

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 11:21 AM

I think the good ol' Zeus needs a boost. Missile Fist needs an Uprgrade!

#36 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 01:28 PM

Simple solution! PGI should implement reactive and reflective armor, and expand on existing weapons. We don't even have MRMs. This will go a long way towards balancing the game without deviating from the established lore; more loadout options and the choice to have either laser or ballistic resistance (or the middle ground of standard/ferro fibrous armor) will encourage mixed builds rather than all of the boats you generally see. Because news flash: in the current meta, if you aren't boating lots of weapons of the same archetype, you are running an inefficient loadout that will not compete well!

#37 Omniseed

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 03:50 PM

I think ghost heat is too painful a tax on assault 'mechs, it means taking a medium or heavy that's a stripped-down gun platform carrying whatever your favorite assault packs is probably a better choice.

There isn't enough room for heat sinks in assault 'mechs, which is a pretty cruel hit to the largest, heaviest, slowest 'mechs in the game.

I think even adding a bonus engine heat sink slot per weight class would be a good measure.

#38 The6thMessenger

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 04:54 PM

Direwolf needs better torso pitch and yaw speed and distance.

#39 MarsThunder

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 12:59 AM

> What mechs do you think the need love the most the choices are from what I think need it
What?

#40 Aesthetech

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 12:02 PM

Honestly, the only problem with assaults right now is that there's 1 assault that in addition to being able to quickly delete smaller mechs also takes a giant dump all over the other assaults. As such, occupying the tonnage/slot in either a QP or group drop is inherently a suboptimal choice compared to other mechs of near/similar tonnage in the hands of equally skilled pilots. Given how prolific this particular mech is, you are very likely to run into one. Thus, when you play something similar to that of near tonnage you are relying on your skill and your group's coordination to be able to overcome a likely disadvantage.

The best counter to the mentioned mech is to avoid, outmaneuver, and swarm it, and thus mechs of a similar movement profile for the tonnage are not desirable.





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