7 replies to this topic

[owlNOLA]

After this last tournament I want to see just how bad my investment in the Phoenix Hawk was. So I took and averaged out the score of the top 75 for each med Mech and this is what the numbers came out to be:
Nova=3175.44
Hunchback IIC=2921.5067
Storm Crow=2789.6267
Shadow Cat=2719.573
Cicada=2643.28
Black Jack=2641.12
Shadow Hawk=2571.573
HunchBack=2534.72
Centurion=2517.53
Griffin=2509.867
Enforcer=2435.28
Wolverine=2423.56
Crab=2368.13
Trebuchet=2310.893
Kintaro=2307.773
Ice Ferret=2257.04
Vindicator=2140.867
Phoenix Hawk=2013.213

https://mwomercs.com...?t=201607medium

Depressing if you thought the phoenix hawk was going to be a Black jack that swapped hard points for jump jets. Giving the IS another way to play scouting missions. Alas it falls to preform CW attack / defend, scouting and freeplay. So why?

My first response is to throw out the average results. The reasons being are as follows. There are a lot of good to Great players that don't own the PXH, so the other mechs have a better talent pool. I am only a average player and I ranked in at 22 on the PXH board. This event flooded the teams with meds changing the game play. Any pug matches are random with who you drop with and against and the skill levels. There is not really a solid tier 3s only drop with 3's and the flaws of the tier system. Yet the I don't think the averages are totally flawed. After all besides talent pool everyone's was drop under similar scenarios.

Maybe it is the builds. Personally meds are the hardest builds for me to make. There has got to be a balance when building. They don't carry enough wight for ideal weapon load out to heat management. Yes you can load it down with weapons but you will over heat. But all meds have this challenge. Granted the Black jack does have better hard points but not that much better so kinda a wash in my humble opinion. The thing the PXH does lack build wise is guilds. Granted there are some but not the quint y of battle tested builds like other meds.

Well what about hit boxes? The head is a big box but so is the BJ's. I have taken a gauss to the face and it sent me to yellow. Yet I have not been destroyed by a head shot yet, unlike in my BJ. The torsos are small making it XL safe. On top of that the arms make great shields. But that is also a disadvantage because your best hard points are there. I have finished many matches as a zombie. Again a wash in my opinion.

So than it could be the Quirks. PXH has less structure quirks than the vindicator but more than Blackjack. Yet, it lacks either of their offensive or heat management quirks. In this game you want to hit hard fast and take as many of your opponents off the field as fast as possible. This defiantly hurts it's performance. However it shouldn't break it this bad.

Well what about play styles?
Sniper - PXH makes a good sniper. It can get to positions fast. Also Super high ones. It is fun holding a lock for the LRM boats and than hitting the target with the missiles that way your damage indicator gets lost among the missiles. However the heat is a threat that pilot skill must overcome. I did not play one for this tournament because the scoring system didn't encourage it.
Scout – PXH with a 350xl PXH runs 129.6/139.3kph just as good as a light. Going over instead around takes it to the finish line. Play it just like a light scout. It works as long as you enemy don't react properly. Heck I have wolf-packed with this thing with great results. Very fun and good scores.
Reservist – This is the murder ball roll. You move from one target to the next backing up only for heat or incoming fire. Looking for a easy mark that is focusing on a friendly. You hit that target till they are dead, retreating or start to point at you. Than you back off and find another target. The 1K and ROC excel at this roll they both can drop a lot of damage fast and hard. I have seen the results and I was impressed. However I don't own a ROC. The 1K just feels like a ostrich to me. I dislike playing it.(I will explain later) But they both have a easy time dropping the 30 damage in a blast than getting out of the way to cool down.
So for this tournament I blended the scout and reservist play styles in my Kuroi Kiri and I will explain how later, but I was satisfied with the results.
So This thing plays well so the score didn't suffer from that.

So lets examine each play mode and how the PXH fits:
CW most drop decks don't fit a 45 tonn'er so that limits the war time right out the gate. However the only PXH's that really compete damage wise to a BJ are the ROC and 1K. The ROC is a MC mech that going up against C-bill mechs that handles the heat better. The 1K losses the selection to a BJ because of quirks and most that need a 45 already own a BJ mastered.
Scout mode has turned in to a SRM/Dakka battle mode. Unlike the griffin hunchback and shadow hawk the PXH doesn't hold up to Hunchback IIC, Nova, or Storm Crow in this arena. Not really it's failing but PGI. If scout mode really was about data packets the PXH would shine brighter.
Freeplay meta kills the PXH. This is the days of LRM boats and laser boat brawlers. The PXH fails at LRM and doesn't boat lasers the best.

My conclusion of why I am disappointed in my purchase of the PXH base 3 and KK is that the mech is in the wrong meta and to unbalanced. Granted the fire has not gone out. The PXH is fun to play. I would not recommend a new player start with. I will be worth the C-Bills once it is balanced. The Balance has already started with this latest patch, but I still find it weak.

So if you find your self with a PXH here are my recommendations for playing one (all that later stuff I mentioned earlier):

You have to stay moving and shot on the move accurately on the move. This thing does not tank. Even sniping. You get spot ed move. If you get to hot move to cover than get back in the fight. The good thing is this thing moves great!

Use the jump jets Boba Fett. Pop tart from different locations if the enemy has taken the high ground. Heck pop tart when ever. Get on top of a building/structure and poke over the edge. Flank hostels by going over objects creating bottlenecks your friends are in/guarding. Go over the assault/heavy twisting in air so when you land you have their back. Jump over tall obstetrical so when you land you are behind cover. Just remember to time your jump in between there weapon cooldown because while you are in air you path is easy to predict.

Hunt the LRM boats. This is some thing I have picked up playing lights in PUG matches. When you see the missile contrails use that to generalize LRM locations. Lock them up and call in your LRM's. While it rains on them take there legs. Most LRMer's can't identify the hit markers or the damaged armor in the legs came from lasers not missiles. Heck a foolish one you can take there back out and they will never turn around of course this is relaying on enemy en experience. Not saying I don't do it when I find a LRM'er with no close in defenses. This has risk but worth it to have a LRM boat die with a near full payload. Just don't be afraid to retreat if it turns south.

Reservist explained. No don't hind out in the back stealing kills. This takes awareness because what you are doing is adding your fire power to the side that is pushed hardest. In a murder ball situation flanks form when one team surrounds the ball. If you are inside the ball move and fire to the side that is getting hit hardest. If you are the flanking team support both flanks using the move time to cool. Just be aware of line of fires. If a bottle neck happens it may be possible for you to take high ground flanking enemy.

Vertical maps are your friend. Horizontal maps are your enemy. Stay near cover. Jump jets may take your cover away.

Scout – reserve – (maybe) hunt -finish shouting for stragglers if any. Don't be scared to change rolls depending on what will help your team.

Once you have a feel for jump jets this powerful you may not want to go with out. Poor 1K.

Machine guns are practically worthless but if you have the free slots and tonnage take them. They are better than nothing. Not saying I haven't seen/tried AC2 or 5 builds. Just the PXH results did not satisfy me personally. I Guess the BJ spoiled me when it comes to dakka.

[Surn]

your averages support the fact that clan mechs are severely unbalanced v inner sphere mechs. The pilots are generally worst on the clan side but the mechs more than make up the difference. Your phx is just outclassed in that tonnage.

Edited by MechregSurn, 20 July 2016 - 05:13 PM.

[jss78]

Some thoughts.

I feel the difficulty of Phoenix Hawk is that it just doesn't fit anywhere... It's kind of fragile, between being rather big, and not quite fast enough. Try to do the "heavy light" shtick it's famed for, you'll get gunned down in no time. Blackjack is in the same position, but makes up with excellent offensive quirks and hardpoint locations. The BJ has a clear role as a fire-support 'mech, with PXH it's a lot less obvious.

You mention hitboxes ... now those are actually EXCELLENT. I've played lots of 'mechs reputed for excellent hitboxes, and the PXH is just phenomenal in rolling damage. However, this doesn't help much when you're so easily disarmed by taking the arms away -- and they will be the first locations to go.

Now if you gave the thing 6+ torso energy hardpoints, it'd probably do great with hitboxes like this. But then it wouldn't be a Phoenix Hawk, would it?

All that said, I love the thing. Between having the guns in the arms (easy to track targets) and huge jumping ability, it's a FUN mech to play. But it is hard mode.

As far as roles:

owlNOLA, on 20 July 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

Sniper - PXH makes a good sniper. It can get to positions fast. Also Super high ones. It is fun holding a lock for the LRM boats and than hitting the target with the missiles that way your damage indicator gets lost among the missiles. However the heat is a threat that pilot skill must overcome. I did not play one for this tournament because the scoring system didn't encourage it.

This is one of those roles where I feel most 'mechs can do it OK, most of the time. If you have decent mobility, and slap on 2+ ERLL, it's a really easy way to halfway passable games. You'll occasionally get a great game. But it's also a bit too situational IMO, and not the ideal way to run in Quick Play.

The Phoenix Hawk can do this -- but so can most 'mechs, and then you'll have stuff like SHD-2K or many heavier mechs which put those ERLL's on the shoulder(s) and be excellent at it, which the Phoenix Hawk is not.

owlNOLA, on 20 July 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

Reservist – This is the murder ball roll. You move from one target to the next backing up only for heat or incoming fire. Looking for a easy mark that is focusing on a friendly. You hit that target till they are dead, retreating or start to point at you. Than you back off and find another target. The 1K and ROC excel at this roll they both can drop a lot of damage fast and hard. I have seen the results and I was impressed. However I don't own a ROC. The 1K just feels like a ostrich to me. I dislike playing it.(I will explain later) But they both have a easy time dropping the 30 damage in a blast than getting out of the way to cool down.

This is where I've had the best luck with my Phoenix Hawk, and yup, my favourite for this is my ROC with LPL, 2xML, 2xSRM2, 2xAMS. I run about my team's murderball, maybe skirmish on the fringes, but won't go too far. Good mixture of speed and firepower for this job. With a mid-range focus, there's rarely a game or map where a 'mech like this doesn't work. This is the one PXH build in which I've been able to be ... let's say fairly consistently useful in my Tier 2 games.

Edited by jss78, 20 July 2016 - 05:31 PM.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

Honestly? Put Soy in any mech with JJs and he's bound to rank among the top 5.

And then you have the HBK-IIC, of which people were almost certainly using the HBK-IIC-A to grind the leaderboard. the IIC-A is the best medium mech in the game because of hardpoint locations, and not because of anything else. It is super fragile at close range. More glass cannon than a 5AC2 Jagermech.

Shadowcat is as good as Griffin/Blackjack? Nope. That was just Warkhan doing amazingly well in his. If you had the best pilots piloting those things, results would have been different.

Cicada better than Griffin, Enforcer, Hunchback? Not a chance.

The leaderboard is not accurate for "best mechs" or a mech's capabilities in any way.

[jss78]

Keshav Murali, on 20 July 2016 - 05:25 PM, said:

Honestly? Put Soy in any mech with JJs and he's bound to rank among the top 5.

And then you have the HBK-IIC, of which people were almost certainly using the HBK-IIC-A to grind the leaderboard. the IIC-A is the best medium mech in the game because of hardpoint locations, and not because of anything else. It is super fragile at close range. More glass cannon than a 5AC2 Jagermech.

Shadowcat is as good as Griffin/Blackjack? Nope. That was just Warkhan doing amazingly well in his. If you had the best pilots piloting those things, results would have been different.

Cicada better than Griffin, Enforcer, Hunchback? Not a chance.

The leaderboard is not accurate for "best mechs" or a mech's capabilities in any way.

I'd agree, the top scores are really sensitive to which 'mechs the true elite players fancy running in. And if you start taking averages of the whole leaderboard (as done by the OP), then that's really sensitive to how many people you have running said 'mech. Have a 1000 people vs. 100 people grinding for those great outlier games, and the results will be very different.

Now that said, the Phoenix Hawk average is really, really low, considering that you had lots of people running theirs during that event. So it wasn't for the lack of collective trying, it's just a tough 'mech to do well in.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

I'm really not disputing the phoenix hawk, it's sort of subpar considering what the meta is right now.

Edited by Keshav Murali, 20 July 2016 - 05:44 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

The other side of the coin is for both weight savings and speed, the use of isXL engine in its current setup is what is holding back several mechs. It does not mean that it would make subpar mechs meta mechs, but when you consider what part of the mech was destroyed with the loss of a side torso, but for Clan mechs most would still have half of its weapons and still have the ability to dish out damage til it is brought down. Yes, it has a speed/heat penalty but it is still a target and can still target.

And in a game with no actual engine crits, that is the one item that is totally bonkers. Lord help us if PGI brings in IS Omnimechs, especially the heavy and assaults.

[Blind Baku]

Thanks for the theory craft, OP. These mechs were such a disappointment, enough that I was almost tempted to ask PGI if I could refund them for the Viper... (pretty sure they would not do that, as I have 'opened' the pack and played with them a little, though lately they've just been gathering dust)

My suspicion is that the change of swapping some of the hardpoints (maybe one per variant with out them already) from the arms, to the torsos.

So swap one of the two from the 1's and 3S' RA to RT or CT, maybe leave the 2 alone as ECM+3E is sweet looking... (I do not have this mech, don't know if it is worth the time of day as is), and leave the 1B and K alone. That combined with quirks that are less... scattered would go a long way. (I might just be a scrub, but 3 weapons specific quirks for 3 different weapons, on a light weight medium mech, is a bad choice of quirks. And I would argue the RoF MG quirks are too little to be worth while as it seems the rough rule of thumb to make MG's 'worth it' is having the equivalent of ~4 mgs. I.E. 2MGs+50% rof, 3MGs+30% rof, etc...)