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Replacing Invasion: A Case And Outline For Mwo Rush As The Only Game Mode We'll Ever Need.

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#1 ScarecrowES

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 03:46 PM

Introduction:

I've included a TL;DR summary at the end of this posting - for those folks who may wish to know the basics of this suggestion before deciding if they want to invest in the lengthy read below. Please feel free to skip to the bottom and get a brief run-down of this post.

And please, if you are interested in the concept described below, PLEASE "LIKE" THIS TOPIC - even if you don't intend to reply.

With that said...

With the recent Faction Play Round-Table focusing on a few ways to reduce queue times and consolidate player groups, it was noted that future round-tables would be occuring and would eventually focus on other aspects of Faction Play that need improvement.

Most frequent players of FP will note that the current Invasion mode simply doesn't work very well. The game mode itself relies on mechanics and map design that are counterintuitive to the types of gameplay Mechwarrior Online does well. Further, the mode tends to funnel players into very specific mech choices, builds, play styles, and strategies in order to be successful. Most players seem to find any number of the core design choices of the Invasion mode not to their liking, and as such the Faction Play mode as a whole has suffered. Unfortunately, despite the community's best efforts in coming up with solutions to truly improve Invasion, the mode itself - from its core gameplay and map design - is unlikely to ever grow into something that will attract the player population necessary to make Faction Play function properly - let alone be an enjoyable mode for its own sake.

As such, I'm seeking to preset an alternative to Invasion that's frequently brought up by the community, as well as to flesh out that mode by outlining themes, mechanics, and overall gameplay flow.

Below, I will present a case for the adaptation of the Rush game mode for MWO.

What is Rush?

Rush is a game mode first introduced as "Gold Rush" in Battlefield: Bad Company as a companion (initially, replacement) to long-time Battlefield staple mode Conquest. Since its introduction a version of Rush has featured in every iteration of the Battlefield, and is one of the most popular modes in the series - and thus one of the most popular modes in competitive shooter gaming.

Rush is an asymmetrical mode designed for 2 opposed teams, and is built on the attack/defend model. Each Rush map is divided into a series of stages that are progressed through linearly as the match progresses. Each stage has an objective, or series of objectives, that the attackers must destroy in order to progress to the next stage. For the attackers, the winning condition is to secure every stage's objectives, while for the defending team the goal is to eliminate the attacking team or prevent them from securing all of their objectives before the match time runs out.

As the match progresses through each stage, the spawn location for both teams also progress so that the attacking team always spawns at the front/starting side of the current stage and the defending team spawns at the rear/ending side of the stage. The stage objectives are often placed nearly equally-distanced from both teams, though sometimes favoring the defending team. When the attackers achieve the objectives of the current stage, their spawn moves up to that stage's defenders' spawns, and the defenders fall back to the next stage's defender spawn.

Rush was an instant hit after it was first introduced, and has since become as synonymous with the Battlefield series as Conquest historically has been. Rush matches tend to be intense and focused, offering a varying gameplay and strategy in each different stage as the match progresses.

MWO Rush: Core Gameplay Similarities and Differences.

MWO's new Invasion mode would be built on the Rush model, retaining most of that mode's core gameplay tenets. The current Invasion mode already shares some similarities to Rush that differ from MWO's other modes: namely matches that support several objectives that are achieved sequentially, triggered events associated with those objectives, and a respawning system to support more advanced and lengthy matches.

Like traditional Rush, MWO's new Invasion mode would be designed to have matches that linearly progress through a series of attack/defend stages - each with their own objectives and distinct map divisions - and team spawn locations will progress with each stage. The new Invasion mode will maintain the current mode's respawn system using predefined drop decks.

This differs from the current Invasion model where there are effectively several sequential objectives on the same overall map, and respawn locations are static throughout the match. Stages, then, are the primary difference between new Invasion and the current model. The smaller scope of each stage focuses combat on specific engagements for a specific purpose. Moreover, the map design necessary to fulfill this gameplay requirement is more akin to stringing several standard maps together more than the bowl-and-chokepoint design of current Invasion maps. This allows for a more varied and open map design with none of the current problems caused with current Invasion maps.

Matches under the new Invasion "Rush" mode will continue to be long-duration matches focused largely on objective-based combat - as is the case in the current Invasion mode - though matches will feature less downtime and more frequent combat which may cause them to progress more quickly once rolling than current Invasion matches.

MWO Rush: In Detail.

Invasion's Rush-style maps will be divided into 3 stages. Each stage will be roughly the size of the original MWO Quick Play maps, while the overall map size will be more akin to the larger, more modern maps. Each stage will be designed to flow into the next/preceding stages in a sequential manner either through physical separation by map geometry, or through triggerable in-match systems (death barriers, turrets, gates, whatever).

Each map will have a theme, and that theme will focus on a valid military target. That target will be different and unique for every map - and the types of objectives and how those objectives will be achieved can be different for each map and stage. Thus players will be presented with a unique Invasion scenario that they'll play through on each map that is thematically appropriate for that map. Additionally, each map will be designed with a different scenario to play through depending on which side of the map each team starts on - thus giving each map 2 unique themed scenarios that will play differently and have different strategies and objectives.

Objectives will be designed to be achieved in a number of common ways. This will include the destruction of a predetermined number of objects directly (destroy all turrets, destroy the orbital cannon, destroy the generators, etc), or by standing within or near designated zones or objects for a set length of time (resource nodes, cap points, etc). These methods can also be used to achieve an objective indirectly (destroy a gen or hack a system to open a gate, etc). These objectives will largely use adaptations of existing objects and methods from both Quick Play and Faction Play currently in MWO, as well as introducing others.

Stage and objective tuning should be designed in such a way as to place combat emphasis on the 2nd (middle) stage. Objectives in the first and last stages should be easier to achieve for the attacking team, while the middle stage should be easier to defend.

When an attacking team achieves an objective that moves the match onto the next stage, the defending team's spawn points will fall back to the far side of the next stage while the attacking team's spawn will move up to the defenders' previous spawn points. There will be certain delays and timers in place to prevent attacking teams from rushing into the next stage before defenders have a chance to spawn in. A certain amount of strategy will be involved in how best to set up defenses in the new stage, and whether remaining defenders should fall back to the new defense line or stay behind to slow the attackers' advance.

Various methods can be used to ensure that players cannot camp opposing players' spawns or gain unfair access to other areas, but the nature of new Invasion matches will greatly encourage focus on objectives over killing enemy players, and thus spawn camping should be less likely under this mode than under current Invasion gameplay. Attackers can't win by merely killing defenders.

Given that each stage will need to be designed in such a way that it has physical or enforced separation from other stages, this affords the opportunity to design the geometry and physicality of each stage differently while remaining true to a central theme. One stage may feature crowded urban combat while the next might feature a more open environment with long sight lines and little cover. Different stages and their associated objectives will cater to different kinds of mechs and playstyles - and expand on the available strategies and options for how to tackle each map scenario.

Matches, then, will play out much like a series of linked Quick Play matches inside of a standard Invasion match.

Ideally, stages and objectives will be accompanied by in-game radio chatter and cutscenes to highlight the events of each stage, including mission in-brief and out-briefs to aid in immersion and provide context to each mission. Intro/outro cutscenes will be brief and to-the-point, merely setting up the scenario being played out and the actual result of the match.

Match scoring will be enhanced by adding partial scoring for each objective as well as adjusting win/loss scoring for attacking and defending teams to further diffferentiate rewards based on the unique differences and challenges involved in each side of the match. This will serve to reward the difference between a well fought win/loss, or a complete stomp from either side - as well as to ensure teams get some value out of time spent achieving objectives even if they didn't win the match.

The increased time and investment from each player in these matches will be rewarded accordingly.

To better highlight how Rush maps and matches will be designed, and to demonstrate some examples of the varied objectives and gameplay that this game mode can afford, I will use a few examples of map themes and scenarios below.

Example Map Themes and Scenarios:

1.Spaceport (In Detail)
· General map theme: Players fight to secure or defend a remote civilian spaceport.

· Map scenario (Attack): The attacking team will have the goal of establishing a beachhead for additional invasion forces waiting in orbit. To this end, the attacking team has decided to use an advance landing force to capture an existing spaceport large enough to support the landing of Overlord drop ships. The desire spaceport is defended by an Orbital Cannon, standard emplaced defenses around the port itself, and a small garrison force.

In stage 1, the attacking team will drop in from Leopard dropships on the outskirts of the spaceport to first remove the threat of the orbital cannon. This will simply involve destroying the cannon itself. This stage will play out like the endgame sequence of the current Invasion mode. Once the orbital cannon has been destroyed, the attacking team will move into the spaceport proper.

In stage 2, the attacking team will be tasked with securing the port, which will involve commandeering the spaceport defense and operating systems. The port will be defended by emplaced turrets in addition to the defending team. The attacking team will need to hack the spaceport systems by moving close to one or more of several data hubs placed around the spaceport. Time spent near the nodes will increase the percentage of subsystems secured by the attacking team. This plays out as a combination of Conquest from QP and Scouting from FP. Once the spaceport's systems have been commandeered, the attacking team will move on to mopping up the remaining garrison resources.

In stage 3, the attacking team will move into the small garrison facility attached to the spaceport. There the attacking team will be charged with ensuring the spaceports defenders cannot mount a counterattack. This will involve destroying a local air defense tower and satellite communications uplink within the garrison itself - by destroying the mobile uplink platform directly (bases in Domination), and destroying the generator powering the defense tower (O-gens from FP).

If the attackers can secure their objectives, their fleet will begin landing operations and will win the match. Winning attackers will be presented with a small cutscene showing an Overlord dropship coming in for a landing at the port. If the defenders can prevent the attackers from securing their objectives, they'll be presented with a small cutscene showing the arrival of reinforcements.

· Map scenario (Counterattack): The attacking team will play the role of reinforcements sent to push an invading force out of a friendly spaceport. The map will be played from the reverse side, with the attacking team starting at the garrison facility, moving through the spaceport, and finally out to the orbital cannon.

In stage 1, attackers will focus on reestablishing a satellite uplink and air defense network. This would involve remotely restarting a series of power distribution nodes placed throughout the garrison. Stand near a node for a short amount of time to access the node and re-establish operation. This will play out similar to Scouting, requiring only that attackers stay near a node for a very short amount of time to secure it.

In stage 2, attackers will have to destroy a series of enemy dropships that have landed at the port and cut the Invading forces off from the rest of their fleet. This is as straight-forward as it sounds. Destroy all of the Leopard dropships placed around this stage of the map.

In stage 3, the attackers must eliminate the invaders' toehold at the spaceport by destroying their landing beacons - thus preventing the invaders from drawing in any new reinforcements to hold the port. Basically this plays out like a defended version of FP ghost drops.

If the attackers succeed in driving the invaders off world, you'll see a scene of the fleeing invader dropships being shot out of the sky by striking aerospace fighters. If the defenders succeed in keeping their toehold on the spaceport, they'll see a scene of the main invasion forces arriving to drive out any further counterattack.

Below I've included a graphic illustration to serve as an example of how such a map might be layed out:

Posted Image

This map is annotated to show the Attacker match start location and match flow as the teams progress through stages. It shows a general theme (though likely not actual location) of spawn locations, including highlighting those spawns that will actually swap as stages progress. Also shown are the general placement of objectives and other pertinent information. This graphic is for illustrative purposes only, and is not meant to represent an actual map design.

2. Hydro-Electric Dam (In Brief)
· General map theme: Players fight to secure or defend a large hydro-electric dam. Attackers will fight through a watershed with palatial farmlands, a central river, ponds, and trees (stage 1) into a network of forested canyons (stage 2) and on to the dam proper (stage 3). Contains a bit of DNA from Emerald Taiga and Canyon Network.

3.HPG Uplink Facility (In Brief)
· General map theme: Players fight to secure or defend an HPG Uplink Facility. Attackers will fight through an ancient forest with giant trees and in-ground bunkers (stage 1) to a large Uplink dish tower (stage 2) and on to a small fusion powerplant and data center (stage 3). This map and mode is basically an homage to the Endor battle in Return of the Jedi. Contains a bit of DNA from Forest Colony and HPG Manifold.

4.Mech Factory (In Brief)
· General Map Theme: Players fight to secure or defend the remaining resources of a bombed-out mech factory. Attackers will fight through a large network of support buildings and assembly shops (stage 1) into the ruined hulk of a large mech assembly facility with massive destroyed buildings, rubble, and equipment (stage 2) and on to a harbor into which production supplies are shipped (stage 3). Contains a bit of DNA from Mining Collective and Crimson Straight.

5.Capitol City (In Brief)
· General Map Theme: Players fight to secure or defend the ruling council in the capitol city of a strategically-important planet. Attackers will fight through various stages of suburban sprawl, industrial zones, and a densely developed urban city center. Contains DNA from various city maps.

6.Refinery (In Brief)
· General map theme: Players fight to secure or defend a resource (oil or other) refinery and storage facility. Attackers will fight through resource mining/drilling fields - which could include (depending on theme) oil derricks, surface/subsurface mining, or quarry sites (stage 1). They'll then move onto a large industrial refinery facility with various large machines, buildings, and scaffolding (stage 2) before moving on to a storage facility with clustered storage vats and bunkers (stage 3). Contains a bit of DNA from Mining Collective and Caustic Valley among others.

And of course, many more scenarios/themes are possible.

Implementation Challenges and Advantages:

The current Invasion mode functions similar to a very stripped-down Rush mode already. Challenges in implementing the mode I've described above will be minimal - beyond merely the time and resources necessary to build and code the new maps.

Current Invasion already features sequential objectives and event triggers that would be necessary to create a staged system like in more traditional Rush. Methodologies for varying objective types already exist throughout the game in various other modes, and no new coding should be required to throw in a scanning objective (for example) rather than a pure damage objective.

Nothing on the front end has to change to accomodate the new mode, as it plays entirely within the existing Invasion infrastructure.

The primary challenge is one of development time and resources. Essentially, this new MWO Rush Invasion replacement will require PGI to build, likely mostly from scratch, a minimum of 6 of the most complex and expansive maps they've ever built. There is no great technical challenge involved - it's merely the challenge and cost of building 6 very good, very complex maps. The resources necessary to complete these maps will divert those same resources from the creation or updating of maps for the Quick Play and Invasion modes.

The advantages, however, far outweight any investment.

In terms of map design, we'll be eliminating the bowl-and-chokepoint design of current Invasion maps and replacing those with more traditional maps. And within those maps, more of the map space will be used compared to current Faction Play and modern Quick Play maps. The amount of dead-space will be used up, replaced by actual fighting space. While these maps will likely take more time and resources to complete than similar FP and QP maps, players will actually see and be fighting throughout more map space than they would in those game modes currently. This means the time invested into map development both more efficient and more effective, with players using more or what was developed.

As demonstrated in the examples above, the new game mode provides an extreme amount of variety. Boredom should not be a problem within this new mode. Within 6 main MWO Rush maps, you'd have 3 each sub-maps all with differing terrain and styling. Each of those 3 sub-maps will have, essentially, a different gameplay objective whose gameplay may as well make each objective a different game mode. And each main map will have 2 different scenarios, with different objectives for each sub-map. Within a mere 6 maps, you've got 18 maps equivalent in scope and scale to the maps MWO originally launched with, containing 36 different objectives modes. That's a lot of variety.

Beyond mere map variety, the variety of viable mech types, gameplay styles, and strategies should expand significantly. Different objective/stage combinations will emphasize different qualities for success. Bringing the tankiest, heaviest, most firepower-intensive mechs you can would no longer be the only viable way to build a deck. Sometimes, light mechs will be useful more for specific stages than merely for filling drop weight after your heavies have been loaded. LRMs would even be valuable in some stages.

Additionally, there is a matter of immersion and context. Each map scenario will be designed to feel like a complete and contained mission - part of a greater invasion effort. Rather than feeling as if they've been dropped on a random part of a planet that just happens to have an orbital cannon plopped in the middle of it for seemingly no reason, players will instead be fighting over a series of viable military targets in maps designed to appear as if those targets belong there. This will allow FP matches to feel more like Invasion battles rather than just simple strikes.

Players will find themselves establishing a beachhead for their invasion fleet. Capturing the ruling council of an important planet so it can be turned without months of bloodshed. Taking over a much-needed resource facility to keep your fleets rolling. Engaging an unstoppable enemy to give your civilian ships time to lauch off-planet. Holding the line at a communications relay facility necessary to coordinate your faction's war effort. Every match will have a story, and that story will make sense in the context of the game and map environment.

Conclusion:

With all of these advantages combined, this mode will certainly be more FUN than the current Invasion mode. And ultimately, that's why we play. To have fun.

For Faction Play to work, the core mode of the game has to work. It has to be able to stand on its own as something players would want to play even if there was no greater point to it than just the enjoyment of time invested. It has to be fun.

The mode I've described above? I think THIS mode would immediately become the defacto mode for MWO. I believe in it whole-heartedly.

And if you've been able to read this far, I hope you believe in it too.

TL;DR Version:

Replace or augment the current Invasion mode with one patterned on the Rush gametype. Create roughly 6 new maps with 3 sequential stages - each with a different objective - and 2 separate attack scenarios each depending on which side of the map you start on.

Maps would each be designed with a unique theme built around an actual, thematically-appropriate military objective. Scenarios would be given a degree of immersion and context that makes them feel like an actual mission that might be part of an invasion. Map terrain and composition in each stage of a map will vary but stay true to theme.

Objectives will also be varied - encompassing the full variety of current objective types from both QP and FP, adapted appropriately for the new mode. The varied objectives and map/stage types will allow for more varied mech types, builds, and play styles than currently viable in FP. This will make playing every one of the 12 possible scenarios (if 6 maps created) feel like a completely unique experience, and the tone from stage to stage within the same map will feel unique as well.

More variety, more immersion, more context, better maps, compelling objectives... more FUN.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 12 August 2016 - 11:44 PM.


#2 El Bandito

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 08:20 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 30 July 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

Rush is an asymmetrical mode designed for 2 opposed teams, and is built on the attack/defend model. Each Rush map is divided into a series of stages that are progressed through linearly as the match progresses. Each stage has an objective, or series of objectives, that the attackers must destroy in order to progress to the next stage. For the attackers, the winning condition is to secure every stage's objectives, while for the defending team the goal is to eliminate the attacking team or prevent them from securing all of their objectives before the match time runs out.



So basically Assault mode from Unreal Tournament. I loved that mode.

#3 SirNotlag

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 08:33 PM

I think this game mode style could work. But I'm also one of those people that plays the current FP with friends and enjoys it quit a lot.

#4 ScarecrowES

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 09:14 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 30 July 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:



So basically Assault mode from Unreal Tournament. I loved that mode.


Something like that. Rush has a lot of DNA in it, and I think it's safe to say it can be viewed as an expansion of Unreal Tournament's Assault Mode. Rush in Battlefield tends to have quite a few more stages than the 2 found in UT, but I don't think more than 3 would work for MWO. Rush also tends to be more expansive than UT Assault, largely because combat in Battlefield is generally more grand in scope than in UT. MWO might fall somewhere in between. Still, you can hardly find better examples of the Attack/Defend model than these two modes.

View PostSirNotlag, on 30 July 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

I think this game mode style could work. But I'm also one of those people that plays the current FP with friends and enjoys it quit a lot.


I think this mode would appeal to both players who currently prefer the smaller scope and variety of Quick Play AND the objective-focused nature of Faction Play. I've played a lot of both over the years, but I've never felt quite at home with either of them. I've always wanted to put the best of both modes together, and fix the things about both modes that doesn't really work. I quite honestly believe this mode would do that.

#5 Voq

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 09:21 AM

I appreciate your well thought out suggestion. I like the sound of what you're describing. It sounds like each match would actually be different from the other in something other than the temperature.

If the gameplay was appealing and unique compared to QP I could really see it drawing more players in.

And I also like the it doesn't sound like they'd have to build it from scratch but could use a lot of what they already have.

#6 Antares102

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 09:23 AM

Nobody from PGI will even read this.
Kudos to the OP for investing so much time into the description.

#7 Mystere

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 09:26 AM

Why remove something that already exists and replace it with something else, thus wasting a whole lot of development effort? Instead ...


Posted Image

#8 Alistair Winter

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 09:29 AM

May read this later, don't have time now. Any chance of some glorious MS Paint illustrations and a TL;DR?

View PostMystere, on 31 July 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Why remove something that already exists and replace it with something else, thus wasting a whole lot of development effort? Instead ...

Despite the fact that I recently made a thread about not removing features outright, I feel like what we have now is absolutely appalling and disgusting to the majority of MWO players. If they're going to keep it in the game, it needs to be in a way where fans of current Invasion mode can actively pursue it. But then you end up splitting the buckets.

I just don't want there to be a FP voting screen where we vote between Rush and Invasion mode and I end up playing a 30 minute match of Invasion mode that I absolutely despise. I would probably just disco if that happened.

#9 Spleenslitta

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 09:37 AM

You put a lot of thought into this. Thank you. There is one thing that made me decide to give you a "like"

View PostScarecrowES, on 30 July 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

In terms of map design, we'll be eliminating the bowl-and-chokepoint design of current Invasion maps and replacing those with more traditional maps. And within those maps, more of the map space will be used compared to current Faction Play and modern Quick Play maps. The amount of dead-space will be used up, replaced by actual fighting space. While these maps will likely take more time and resources to complete than similar FP and QP maps, players will actually see and be fighting throughout more map space than they would in those game modes currently. This means the time invested into map development both more efficient and more effective, with players using more or what was developed.

As long as there are no chokepoints and the whole map is used i'd love it if this happend.
Now let us get down on our knees and headbutt the ground as hard as we can in prayer.
We need to make the sound of our skulls breaking reach the ears of Tina if there is to be any hope for us to see this gamemode.

Will she judge us worthy of beholding her glory or go on a rampage and tear us limb from limb for our impertinence.
Or will she ignore us and instead nibble on a chocolate chip cookie.

#10 B L O O D W I T C H

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 09:47 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 31 July 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Any chance of some glorious MS Paint illustrations and a TL;DR?


Posted Image

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 31 July 2016 - 09:47 AM.


#11 Mystere

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 09:59 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 31 July 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Despite the fact that I recently made a thread about not removing features outright, I feel like what we have now is absolutely appalling and disgusting to the majority of MWO players. If they're going to keep it in the game, it needs to be in a way where fans of current Invasion mode can actively pursue it. But then you end up splitting the buckets.

I just don't want there to be a FP voting screen where we vote between Rush and Invasion mode and I end up playing a 30 minute match of Invasion mode that I absolutely despise. I would probably just disco if that happened.


Imagine the current invasion mode as only one of several types of battles, and people often do not get to choose which battles to fight. Some would be easy, some would be hard, and some would be absolutely terrible. But, they all need to be won to take or defend a planet.

Of course, once we have several modes in CW, we would also need a planetary-level campaign system which governs where, when, and who get to fight which battle. That is something CW really needs.

Edited by Mystere, 31 July 2016 - 10:01 AM.


#12 ScarecrowES

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 10:29 AM

View PostVoq, on 31 July 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

I appreciate your well thought out suggestion. I like the sound of what you're describing. It sounds like each match would actually be different from the other in something other than the temperature.

If the gameplay was appealing and unique compared to QP I could really see it drawing more players in.

And I also like the it doesn't sound like they'd have to build it from scratch but could use a lot of what they already have.


The actual stage objectives will be more varied in this mode than in either QP or FP currently. Essentially, you'll be playing through up to 3 different objective types in every match of "Rush." And those objectives will be pulled from all of the various types currently available and beyond. Some stages might feel like Scouting, some like the gate stage of Invasion, some like Conquest, and some like the O-gen stage of Invasion - just as a few examples.

In terms of "from scratch," a lot of assets and coding from the existing game can be readily used to build the mode, but sadly the maps would still have to be created which requires significant investment. Still more of that investment will have a practical application to players than most maps. Think about the average FP map, or the larger modern QP maps and how much of that space is actually used. Most of the new "Rush" maps would be used, which means more of the time invested by PGI to create them would not be "wasted" compared to existing maps.

View PostMystere, on 31 July 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Why remove something that already exists and replace it with something else, thus wasting a whole lot of development effort? Instead ...


Sure... why not have both. I don't expect 6 Rush-style maps to drop, fully-formed into the game. It would make sense to have both modes rolling at the same time as Rush is spun up. The two modes might compliment each other in the live game. Though I imagine once Rush is up and running with a full map selection, folks will be much less interested in the current Invasion mode.

View PostAlistair Winter, on 31 July 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

May read this later, don't have time now. Any chance of some glorious MS Paint illustrations and a TL;DR?


Despite the fact that I recently made a thread about not removing features outright, I feel like what we have now is absolutely appalling and disgusting to the majority of MWO players. If they're going to keep it in the game, it needs to be in a way where fans of current Invasion mode can actively pursue it. But then you end up splitting the buckets.

I just don't want there to be a FP voting screen where we vote between Rush and Invasion mode and I end up playing a 30 minute match of Invasion mode that I absolutely despise. I would probably just disco if that happened.


I may do some graphic flow examples to highlight how maps might be arranged and objectives set up. Typing this up was a lot of work and I simply haven't had time to do more. I'll probably get to it eventually though, because let's face it... everyone responds well to pictures.

In terms of "voting" for either Rush or Invasion, I don't think that would work in FP. Setting up a good drop deck is important in FP, and "Rush"/Invasion will have very different requirements. I imagine mode/map selection would work similar to how it is now, where you'll be informed what mode and map you're playing when you finally catch a match, so you'll have a short amount of time to select your deck accordingly.

View PostSpleenslitta, on 31 July 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

You put a lot of thought into this. Thank you. There is one thing that made me decide to give you a "like"

As long as there are no chokepoints and the whole map is used i'd love it if this happend.
Now let us get down on our knees and headbutt the ground as hard as we can in prayer.
We need to make the sound of our skulls breaking reach the ears of Tina if there is to be any hope for us to see this gamemode.

Will she judge us worthy of beholding her glory or go on a rampage and tear us limb from limb for our impertinence.
Or will she ignore us and instead nibble on a chocolate chip cookie.


I've emailed a link to Russ directly, but only here through the official website. I'm relatively sure he doesn't read that though. I definitely would like to get the attention of him or Tina. Perhaps with enough attention from the community, this will get noticed without having to fly a flag in the face of PGI to get it.

View PostToha Heavy Industries, on 31 July 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:


<who's going to pay the bill (not addressed, ofc)>


Obviously my suggestion would be to put a large number of those new employees to work building the new maps. There aren't a lot of maps left that need to be up-sized to the new standard, and I think many players would probably be ok if we held off on upgrading some of the old maps in favor of producing new ones. This is especially true if you consider the value of the mode those maps would be used for. Noting that, we can re-allocate the employess working on upgrading the QP maps and put them on this instead.

The maps require only minor coding, mostly concerned around adapting existing coding and systems to the new maps. Mostly you're looking at asset creation. Beyond the physical map terrain, much of what's needed to create these maps already exists in the game. It's unlikely we'd need much in the way of texture creation, thus we could use texture themes recycled from existing maps. We can also take much of the architecture and object geometry from existing maps.

The refinery map I've described, for instance, can use a large selection of the objects from Mining Collective. Walking around certain parts of that map, they've got oil vats, refinery towers, etc all over the map. The HPG Uplink map is a bit like dropping the center dish tower of HPG into the middle of Forest Colony.

The advantage is that most of these maps, re-using a lot of existing assets, will be cheaper and easier to produce that a lot of original maps were. Production time and energy may be more akin to the upgraded QP maps than a fresh build.

And the value to PGI? What justifies their investment into creating these maps and mode? Well, obviously I believe that the mode is compelling and will see a lot of interest from players. I believe strongly that this is exactly the sort of thing that will please players and take attention away from QP. Getting that degree of interest will keep players on the servers, which earns PGI money. Well worth their effort. It can certainly be argued that they'll see a greater return on their effort building these 6 or so "Rush"-style maps and building a whole new mode around them than they would see putting the same amount of effort into creating or updating maps for QP or the existing FP modes.

Consequently, given that you're looking at building maps that are roughly the size of the larger modern QP maps, it's entirely possible that some of the "Rush" maps could be reworked and adapted into QP maps. This would be doubling PGI's output for the same amount of investment.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 31 July 2016 - 10:41 AM.


#13 Narcissistic Martyr

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 10:44 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 30 July 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:



So basically Assault mode from Unreal Tournament. I loved that mode.


Thinking of which I believe one can download the pre-alpha (anyone else miss games being released when finished?) of the new UT now.

#14 Spleenslitta

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 11:02 AM

View PostScarecrowES, on 31 July 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

I've emailed a link to Russ directly, but only here through the official website. I'm relatively sure he doesn't read that though. I definitely would like to get the attention of him or Tina. Perhaps with enough attention from the community, this will get noticed without having to fly a flag in the face of PGI to get it.

I once sent a PM with a link to Paul asking him to look at my idea for introducing usefull rifles into MWO without breaking the lore.
I sent that PM to Paul on 9 september 2015 and that he still hasn't read my PM.

So i sent a very polite PM to Tina and she at least read it so she's your best bet. But she didn't reply or anything else for that matter so......yeah.
If we are to get PGI's attention we need thousands of posts from hundreds of players.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 31 July 2016 - 11:03 AM.


#15 ScarecrowES

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 11:08 AM

View PostSpleenslitta, on 31 July 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

If we are to get PGI's attention we need thousands of posts from hundreds of players.


Agreed. Or perhaps if I can convince some of the players to whom Russ pays a degree of attention, they can point his gaze this way.

View PostAlistair Winter, on 31 July 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

May read this later, don't have time now. Any chance of some glorious MS Paint illustrations and a TL;DR?


Added a TL;DR statement. Perhaps graphics to follow.

#16 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 11:13 AM

Nice presentation. I could see a similar type staged battle for a planet by using the present QP maps with the existing Invasion maps already in FP.

Example - Cold Planet
Stage 1 - Scouting
Drop on Alpine Peak to scout for intel and get whatever the Scouting award turns out to be.
Stage 2 - Invasion
Drop on Boreal Vault with a FP Drop Deck to establish a foothold for the invasion. Take out cannon.
Stage 3 - Domination
Drop on Frozen City to control home base for the invasion forces
Stage 4 - Conquest
Drop on Polar Highland where the invasion force is confronted by defenders in open battle and tries to secure key resource hubs.
Stage 5 - New Assault
Drop on Alpine Peaks to secure enemy base and subdue defenders.

Attackers must succeed in every mode to secure planet. For either side that fails a Stage can be replayed once during an attack phase and then the invasion must continue to advance or the defenders may be able to force the previous stage to be replayed to force the invaders off the planet.

If neither side completes all the stages before the end of the attack phase then the planet will be scored as contested and the next attack phase will begin at Stage 3 and continue until the invasion is either repelled by the defenders or the invaders triumph and complete all the stages.

The advantage to this type of planetary campaign is that it would use existing assets that are already in game. Some logistical links from one stage to the next and planet status would be the only additional coding requirements.

Existing maps would be themed together to give the planet a distinct personality.

Edited by Rampage, 31 July 2016 - 11:19 AM.


#17 ScarecrowES

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 02:02 PM

Added a sample graphical representation of map layout and match flow under the spaceport map example scenarios. This will give an additional illustrative example of how Rush matches might work.

I used the HPG Manifold map because it has several clear divisions of the map. There is not intent to use the actual map geometry here, just to illustrate how stages are set up and their flow, spawn points, objectives, etc.

I apologize that I'm not a graphic artist, so my illustration is a bit crude.

#18 Kanil

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 02:20 PM

How is this meaningfully different than what we already have? I don't get why it's going to play out differently than Open gate -> Destroy Gens -> Destroy Cannon.

#19 C E Dwyer

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 02:35 PM

nicely written well presented, shame I have to say this but, this stopped having any chance of being a thing when you said

asymmetrical mode


P.G.I have already said they can't do this because of Balance issues, so it won't happen

Edited by Cathy, 31 July 2016 - 02:37 PM.


#20 ScarecrowES

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 02:39 PM

View PostKanil, on 31 July 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

How is this meaningfully different than what we already have? I don't get why it's going to play out differently than Open gate -> Destroy Gens -> Destroy Cannon.


Let's see... first, the match takes place in stages, with the combat of each stage occurring on different parts of the map. Spawns change with the progression of stages, with each team spawning on opposite sides of the current stage. Spawns for both teams will always be located fairly close to where the action is supposed to be taking place. More akin to walking to the center of the map in Canyon Network or Viridian Bog than trudging all the way to the orbital cannon from the attacker spawn in current Invasion maps.

From the offset, the march from spawn to combat is fairly quick. Teams will find themselves in combat within the first few minutes of the match, and will never be out of combat until the match ends. There will be little downtime. This contrasts greatly with the current Invasion mode where there is a lot of time spent out of combat and there are long trudges to the objectives.

Next, the objectives themselves are different for every stage and map, with 36 total possible unique objectives on a mere 6 maps. There is currently one set of 3 objectives in Invasion, and all invasion maps have the same objectives. The system I'm proposing has 12 sets of objectives, with different sets on each scenario of every map. So that's 12 times the current level of variety. Moreover, objectives will be achieved in a variety of ways, and not merely destroying a specific object on the map.

Further, map and stage design will vary, meaning you can have widely different terrain within the same map depending on the stage you're playing. Each stage is essentially a sub-map which flows into the following/preceding stage. Current map design for Invasion places two large bowl arenas on either end of parallel choke points. New Rush maps will be significantly more varied.

Varied map design combined with varied objective design will lead to varied mech types, builds, and play styles being more valuable on different stages. This allows for more compelling and varied gameplay, as well as more varied strategy and tactics. On some maps, you'll want to bring lights because they're the best mechs to tackle the objectives of a certain stage, while on others you might want want long-range mechs to take advantage of unique terrain to aid in your defense. The variety this new mode allows is significantly more than the current Invasion mode.

Moreover, because each map is themed, and the objectives and scenarios of each map are appropriate to that theme and represent a believable military mission, there is significantly more immersion and context to your actions. You'll feel like you're playing through an actual mission with actual ramifications. This contrasts from the current Invasion mode where you're simply attacking the same set of objectives on whatever random map the game is throwing you on. Each "Rush" map scenario will feel like a completely different experience from the next, and each scenario will feel like it has a purpose to furthering the war effort.

There is a lot in the base design of both Rush and Invasion that are similar, and I've noted that above to demonstrate how easy it would be to adapt the current system to the new one. However, there should be no doubt that the two modes will play COMPLETELY differently.

View PostCathy, on 31 July 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

nicely written well presented, shame I have to say this but, this stopped having any chance of being a thing when you said

asymmetrical mode


P.G.I have already said they can't do this because of Balance issues, so it won't happen


Two things... all FP modes currently are asymmetrical modes. And PGI had said in the last townhall that they're currently developing asymmetrical modes for use in Quick Play as well.

You may be confused here. Asymmetrical merely means each side has different goals. Two groups are playing together, but not in the same way or to the same purpose. Any attack/defend mode is asymmetrical. You're here to break my stuff, I'm here to stop you from breaking my stuff.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 31 July 2016 - 02:48 PM.






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