72 replies to this topic

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Or we can go and just undo the thing that caused Ghost Heat and this whole mess to start, double capacity due to double heatsinks, which slowly have been nerfed and buffed over time. Throw back to a hard 30 heat scale, hit 30, you shut down, no need for power draw, take the cooldown nerfs from PTS and apply it. Make DHS vs SHS between pod space and tonnage, got plenty of tonnage but not much pod space? Single heat sinks will work better, lots of pod space but little tonnage? Go for DHS, done.

Does Gauss need a fix in this system, yes, Gauss has always been broken in battletech for it's lack of heat, high damage and long range. Longer cooldown partially fixes it, give the weapon shake for any other weapon being fired for .5 seconds forcing people to stagger fire GR's or miss like a drunk MW from TT. LPL's and PPC's balance out with 3 at a time pushing you over 30 heat. Remove energy heat generation quirks for all but a few mechs and on those make it at most 15%, keep the range, keep the velocity, keep bonus structure and armor, but heat generation quirks and a lower heat cap will do what ghost heat and power draw try to do. Throw in penalties for running too hot and we're good. Usual suspects will still run poke builds that run as cool as possible so they can retreat and cower while waiting for their high damage weapon to recycle over the next 5-7 seconds.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 21 August 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

Or we can go and just undo the thing that caused Ghost Heat and this whole mess to start, double capacity due to double heatsinks, which slowly have been nerfed and buffed over time. Throw back to a hard 30 heat scale, hit 30, you shut down, no need for power draw, take the cooldown nerfs from PTS and apply it. Make DHS vs SHS between pod space and tonnage, got plenty of tonnage but not much pod space? Single heat sinks will work better, lots of pod space but little tonnage? Go for DHS, done.

Does Gauss need a fix in this system, yes, Gauss has always been broken in battletech for it's lack of heat, high damage and long range. Longer cooldown partially fixes it, give the weapon shake for any other weapon being fired for .5 seconds forcing people to stagger fire GR's or miss like a drunk MW from TT. LPL's and PPC's balance out with 3 at a time pushing you over 30 heat. Remove energy heat generation quirks for all but a few mechs and on those make it at most 15%, keep the range, keep the velocity, keep bonus structure and armor, but heat generation quirks and a lower heat cap will do what ghost heat and power draw try to do. Throw in penalties for running too hot and we're good. Usual suspects will still run poke builds that run as cool as possible so they can retreat and cower while waiting for their high damage weapon to recycle over the next 5-7 seconds.

That is basically what I'm suggesting. Lower heat capacity, higher disspiation. Lower potential alpha damage since your mech cannot fire as many weapon systems all at once while rewarding people who make balanced builds that mix low heat and high heat weapons. More diversity, more potential builds less gimmics.

Gauss only needed its rate of fire nerfed, which it got some patches ago. The "lack of accuracy" was partially represented with the precharge mechanic, which while I dont LIKE I'm ok with rather than more nerfs to the weapon.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 21 August 2016 - 12:59 PM.

[davoodoo]

FupDup, on 21 August 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that the MW4 Daishi doesn't have enough hardpoint space for that. Last time I checked, it had a limit of 14 Medium Lasers (5 per arm, 4 in the CT).

Youre right, it was 95 ton gladiator.

xXBagheeraXx, on 21 August 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

How exactly is it a band aid fix when thats how it actually worked in canon?

Show me the rule or piece of lore which mentioned that you cant fire more than 2 ppc at once if heat allows for it.

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 01:03 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

i disagree, their are somethings heat cant handle,
for instance;

yes decrease heat cap to 1/3 of what it is now,(-66%Heat Cap)
yes make all DHS true Dubs1.5 to 2.0(+35% Heat Displacement)
but now more mechs are over heating and lasers are now Under Powered,
not an Alpha Nerf just a Energy Weapon Nerf, PPFLD will still Rule,

so what happens you cant Buff Lasers as that will decrease TTK, and also energy Whine
ok lets Nerf Everything else, Lets Cut all ammo by half, that should make it fair, right?


what you would have is New Players running in Energy Mechs(because they are Cheaper)
making a mistake shutting down alot and getting Punished alot for it, this leads to many frustrations,
PPFLD doesnt change what will change it lots of Energy boats shutting down, Shutdown + PPFLD = Death

people will complain that 3 shots per ton of AC20 Ammo isnt enough,
New Players will find it hard to make do with less ammo and Demand Ammo be brought back up,
the Vet/Comp Players Enjoying their PPFLD will Smile and nod, Yes Please Yes Please,


what we have with the Energy Draw first it replaced Ghost Heat,
its easier to understand and fits more into what BattleTech is than you would think,

yes it needs some tweaking but if you played it you would know what it does,
if you havent played it, then you have no real right to Critique this PTS work in Progress,

[xXBagheeraXx]

Andi Nagasia, on 21 August 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

i disagree, their are somethings heat cant handle,
for instance;

yes decrease heat cap to 1/3 of what it is now,(-66%Heat Cap)
yes make all DHS true Dubs1.5 to 2.0(+35% Heat Displacement)
but now more mechs are over heating and lasers are now Under Powered,
not an Alpha Nerf just a Energy Weapon Nerf, PPFLD will still Rule,

so what happens you cant Buff Lasers as that will decrease TTK, and also energy Whine
ok lets Nerf Everything else, Lets Cut all ammo by half, that should make it fair, right?


what you would have is New Players running in Energy Mechs(because they are Cheaper)
making a mistake shutting down alot and getting Punished alot for it, this leads to many frustrations,
PPFLD doesnt change what will change it lots of Energy boats shutting down, Shutdown + PPFLD = Death

people will complain that 3 shots per ton of AC20 Ammo isnt enough,
New Players will find it hard to make do with less ammo and Demand Ammo be brought back up,
the Vet/Comp Players Enjoying their PPFLD will Smile and nod, Yes Please Yes Please,


what we have with the Energy Draw first it replaced Ghost Heat,
its easier to understand and fits more into what BattleTech is than you would think,

yes it needs some tweaking but if you played it you would know what it does,
if you havent played it, then you have no real right to Critique this PTS work in Progress,

Mechs will NOT overheat nearly as much if they have a balanced amount of heatsinks and arent firing large amounts of weapons all at once. Small numbers of medium lasers dont produce much heat and will dissipate thier heat MUCH faster now.

PPFLD is reduce since your main culprits, PPCS and LPLS cannot be fired in large numbers together or with large numbers of secondary weapons without shutting you down.

Also remember that most weapons have had thier heat values increased a long time ago These values can/should be changed under the new heat capacity rules.

I also never once mentioned about reducing ammo count. I'm not sure why you brought that up. 4 to 5 tons of ac20 ammo has always been more than enough for most of my builds.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 21 August 2016 - 01:07 PM.

[Mystere]

xXBagheeraXx, on 21 August 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

Like I said the heat could be adjusted on a case by case basis depending on the weapons and build being employed.

Be careful there. A few of these and ED can and will end up just as messy as GH.

[Novakaine]

Increased cool downs would be my solution to Alpha Warrior Online.
Plus a modest physical penalty such as slowed movement afterward fizzled vision and such.
Go ahead and alpha.
But you're gonna be weaponless plus a physical penalty.
Alpha strikes should be a last ditch attack not a every 5.9 second one.
Let's be honest that's what we're really talking about.

[davoodoo]

xXBagheeraXx, on 21 August 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Mechs will NOT overheat nearly as much if they have a balanced amount of heatsinks and arent firing large amounts of weapons all at once. Small numbers of medium lasers dont produce much heat and will dissipate thier heat MUCH faster now.

PPFLD is reduce since your main culprits, PPCS and LPLS cannot be fired in large numbers together or with large numbers of secondary weapons without shutting you down.

Also remember that most weapons have had thier heat values increased a long time ago These values can/should be changed under the new heat capacity rules.

I also never once mentioned about reducing ammo count. I'm not sure why you brought that up. 4 to 5 tons of ac20 ammo has always been more than enough for most of my builds.

You do realise that small weapons are main source of huge alphas...

You have stock hbk 4g
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...lab#i=1&l=stock
13 heat sinks 14 heat per alpha. 33 dmg per alpha

and you have hbk 4p
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...lab#i=2&l=stock
23 heat sinks, 25 heat per alpha 43 dmg per alpha

both are running pretty cool but many mediums lasers produce more dmg than single ac20.

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 01:21 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

I will use Solaris boardgame since it was done in 2.5sec rounds, had actual weapon groups (TICs) and weapon cooldowns (delays).

Also consider that MWO is a purely PVP driven game with mechs/omnis that can be customized, unlike MW2-4 where the multiplayer piece was an add-on, not the prime focus so there was no real concern about "balance". EA's MPBT 3025, even without mech customization would have run into the convergence problem MWO has now. Previous MPBTs did not fire alphas at the exact same time, it cycled down the list quickly enough but just enough split second where the last weapons did not hit the same spot as the first set of weapons, think of cUACs.

The long range, hard hitting weapons cooldowns in MWO are too short, allowing them to be semi effective when things hit the fan. Those weapons should be closer to the GH range.

As for heatscale itself, the base can be set at anything, 40 instead of 30, while allowing heatsinks to count as 1 up on that scale, it would be the same for SHS/DHS.

The critical portion of that is not the max cap though, it is the lack of effects while the mech is heating up. There is nothing that would force a light or med mech to play more cautiously if their mechs were slowing down by 15/25/35%, starting at 30/50/70% heatscale. The same for heavies/assaults. Do they setup their mechs to fire just big guns w/high cooldown timers while risking bringing their mechs to a crawl, unable to reverse back into their poke place? Or even firing all of their short range weapons at once, reducing their speed/agility and preventing themselves from torso twisting faster or turning/reversing while their opponent is using smaller weapon groupings and better firing discipline, allowing them to keep moving semi effective while pouring on the damage?

It does not matter what PGI adds, until PGI puts a hard cap on the amount of damage that can be fired at one time, it is only modestly change people's overall behavior when alpha weapons. The question is how quickly it can be done before shutdown in either the GH or ED environment while still having access to full speed/agility.

Just to touch on it, the reason for both the movement penalties and to hit penalties in the original games (BT/Solaris) is that the myomer bundles efficiency decreases as the mech's heat increased, so arms/legs do not move as quickly, never mind the heat effect on the pilots themselves, even while wearing cooling vests/suits.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 21 August 2016 - 01:20 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Its not "AN UNESSISARY BAND-AID" and in fact is replacing the unnecessary band-aid (ghost heat) that we've had for so long.

The mechanic honestly is working really well and I doubt we'll ever have a TT style heat system in this game because that's not the way the game plays.

True that TT was the jumping off point for most mechanics, but MWO is an semi-sim FPS with a few arcade elements in it and that's probably how its going to stay for ease of access to players. As much as I personally would love to see a Battletech game similar to Living Legends and using something as crazy as the cockpit simulators, its not gonna happen, at least not with MWO.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 21 August 2016 - 01:19 PM.

[davoodoo]

MauttyKoray, on 21 August 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

Its not "AN UNESSISARY BAND-AID" and in fact is replacing the unnecessary band-aid (ghost heat) that we've had for so long.

1 unnecessary bandaid replacing another.

Nothing in the past required anti alpha mechanics... Why is that?? can at least 1 person finally answer this??

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 01:24 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

xXBagheeraXx, on 21 August 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Mechs will NOT overheat nearly as much if they have a balanced amount of heatsinks and arent firing large amounts of weapons all at once. Small numbers of medium lasers dont produce much heat and will dissipate thier heat MUCH faster now.

PPFLD is reduce since your main culprits, PPCS and LPLS cannot be fired in large numbers together or with large numbers of secondary weapons without shutting you down.

Also remember that most weapons have had thier heat values increased a long time ago These values can/should be changed under the new heat capacity rules.

I also never once mentioned about reducing ammo count. I'm not sure why you brought that up. 4 to 5 tons of ac20 ammo has always been more than enough for most of my builds.

if your removing the 66% of your heat cap, but only adding in 34-35% more Displacement?
then yes you will over heat more, as you will have to put on many more heat sinks to get back what you lost,

this will also hurt Light and Mediums the most as they mostly bring Energy and cant usually afford ACs,
Heavies and Assaults can take more HeatSInks as they have more tonnage, but also can take AC/Gauss as well,
this will hurt all True Energy boats, and make Ballistic mixed or Ballistic only Builds much stronger than they are now,

though PPCs are PPFLD, LPLs are not,
your System would make it where again Lights/Mediums cant compete(not enough Tonnage or Speed)
but Assaults and Heavies will just move onto more Ballistics and SRMs much like the Comp scene today,

i bring up ammo because if you think you can Nuke Energy weapons to the Floor,
and people will just accept it and have ballistics rule with no questions asked you dont know the community,
if your system happened Ether Energy weapons would have to get major buffs, or Ammo Major Nerfs,

[Funkin Disher]

Slight problem: lasers generate their heat over their burn time, so lowering cap and increasing dissipation wont help all that much. A nova might even be able to fire all its stock ERML before shutdown thanks to quirks and having the long burn time allow time for his bundle of DHS to start dissipating as the heat is generated.

Edit: Some numbers.
A stock Nova Prime has 12 CERML and 18 DHS, meaning that it can alpha for 72 heat over 1.15 seconds burn time while dissipating 41.4 of that heat over the same time. Add in 30 hard heat capacity and it can handle 71.4 of that 72 before external factors like environmental heat, quirks and efficiencies.

So by waiting a split second (less than the current 0.5) a stock, unquirked and unmastered Nova Prime can deal out an 84 point alpha without even shutting down, though it will be riding at the 80+% heat line. And that's after increasing CERML damage from lore's 5 to 6. And the Nova by lore should not be able to handle that.

How would you fix that?

Edited by Funkin Disher, 21 August 2016 - 02:29 PM.

[Novakaine]

Just increase the weapons cool down simplistic yes.
But it will solve some serious issues.

[Rakshasa]

davoodoo, on 21 August 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

1 unnecessary bandaid replacing another.

Nothing in the past required anti alpha mechanics... Why is that?? can at least 1 person finally answer this??

6x PPC Stalkers one-shotting 'Mechs left and right. Those were the days (if you were a Stalker pilot)

Edited by Rakshasa, 21 August 2016 - 02:59 PM.

[Dirkdaring]

Rakshasa, on 21 August 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

6x PPC Stalkers one-shotting 'Mechs left and right. Those were the days (if you were a Stalker pilot)

Yep I ran that build for fun, was a riot. Even though, the cooldown before being able to alpha again was looong.

[TheArisen]

At the least I'd say your idea is worth trying on the PTS.

[Livaria]

If I may have your attention...

Before anyone makes any crucial judgements about the system. I feel that it may be necessary to point this out. The mechanic is about taxing players with high damage alphas by adding heat. It's probably not meant to solve any kind of laserboating problem. I repeat; It's not meant to solve heat issues, but punish high damage alphas.

If players are going in with the expectation that it's going to solve laserboating. Then it's entirely possible that they are missing the point. Do you want to know whats a big factor as to why mechs can manage so much laser heat? Take a good look at this topic. http://mwomercs.com/...d-for-gameplay/

The skill tree allows players to get away with a lot. If players didn't have such a huge bonus towards heat capacity and heat dissipation. The story of MWO game balance could be a lot different. As far as my opinion goes, power draw does it's intended job well.

I'm still deciding if it's a job that I'm thankful for. But i'm certainly not against it.

Edited by Livaria, 21 August 2016 - 05:00 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Funkin Disher, on 21 August 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

Slight problem: lasers generate their heat over their burn time, so lowering cap and increasing dissipation wont help all that much. A nova might even be able to fire all its stock ERML before shutdown thanks to quirks and having the long burn time allow time for his bundle of DHS to start dissipating as the heat is generated.

Edit: Some numbers.
A stock Nova Prime has 12 CERML and 18 DHS, meaning that it can alpha for 72 heat over 1.15 seconds burn time while dissipating 41.4 of that heat over the same time. Add in 30 hard heat capacity and it can handle 71.4 of that 72 before external factors like environmental heat, quirks and efficiencies.

So by waiting a split second (less than the current 0.5) a stock, unquirked and unmastered Nova Prime can deal out an 84 point alpha without even shutting down, though it will be riding at the 80+% heat line. And that's after increasing CERML damage from lore's 5 to 6. And the Nova by lore should not be able to handle that.

How would you fix that?

As ive said earlier if certain builds become issues the heat of the individual weapons can be altered a bit to keep any potential cheese wheels from popping up. Ideally I'd only like about 6 clan er medium lasers to be able to fire at once (would put you at around 80 to 85% heat) Which is half the nova's load. to fire the other 6 you'd have to wait till at least 20% heat again to not shut down after you fired.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Andi Nagasia, on 21 August 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

if your removing the 66% of your heat cap, but only adding in 34-35% more Displacement?
then yes you will over heat more, as you will have to put on many more heat sinks to get back what you lost,

this will also hurt Light and Mediums the most as they mostly bring Energy and cant usually afford ACs,
Heavies and Assaults can take more HeatSInks as they have more tonnage, but also can take AC/Gauss as well,
this will hurt all True Energy boats, and make Ballistic mixed or Ballistic only Builds much stronger than they are now,

though PPCs are PPFLD, LPLs are not,
your System would make it where again Lights/Mediums cant compete(not enough Tonnage or Speed)
but Assaults and Heavies will just move onto more Ballistics and SRMs much like the Comp scene today,

i bring up ammo because if you think you can Nuke Energy weapons to the Floor,
and people will just accept it and have ballistics rule with no questions asked you dont know the community,
if your system happened Ether Energy weapons would have to get major buffs, or Ammo Major Nerfs,

Actually NO. Most medium mechs that boat large amounts of energy weapons usually carry around at most 6 medium lasers/pulse lasers at the most? (excluding the hunchback, but are we REALLY gonna complain of the 8medium laser Hunchback becomes usable again?) If anything the mechs that employ lighter laser loads will benefit most from this since you get more out of your limited amount of available tonnage for heatsinks. Your Jenner running around with only 4 mediums and an SRM6 will be able to fire much faster and more often with its available sinks on this system than it can currently.

ALSO do not take my numbers LITERALLY. the capacity nerf could be as little as half, the entire point of it is to reduce the amount of heat a mech can take all in one alpha strike and to introduce some punishment to overheating your mech. The numbers can ofc be played with a bit as long as the end result is finally having a functional heat system and without some silly gimmick.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 21 August 2016 - 05:14 PM.