24 replies to this topic

[kesmai]

After reading through my last thread it is obvious for me that an 1:1 adaption of the tt heatscale would be nonsense.
So I would like to ask you guys:
How could an adoption of tt heatscale look like in a real time environment such as mwo?
What needs to be balanced beforehand and what penalties do you think are feasible?

I do think an added mechanic like powerdraw brings nothing on the table that would benefit the game (at least as it I shown on pts).
My own premise is to penalize constant riding the shutdown threshold and increasing ttk.
How can low heat weapons be balanced, or over boating a single weapons (splatcat) made unfavorable without nerfing a certain weapon or play style into the ground.

Or in the end maybe pgi's idea is the better one?

So what do you think?

Edited by kesmai, 21 August 2016 - 10:58 PM.

[wolf74]

As I said in the other Thread You would need a Dual Heat system to delay the Penalties for us Human to try to control them.

Ambient Heat scale: No Cap here, This is where all Weapon, Movement, Environment heat all get put, and Heat Sinks Remove it from.
Mech Heat Scale: The Heat of Your Mech itself and where Penalties get apply from.

The Mech Heat Scale is always Moving closer to the Ambient Heat Scale point. The Speed of which I think needs to be a set percentage of the difference between to two Heat Scales. So if you do a Super hot Alpha the Mech Heat scale will Climb fast.

Movement Penalties: I think should start at 20% and Climb from there
Fire Penalties: Delay on Lock-ons and % Mis-Convergence
Ammo Explosions: should be changed to Chance for some Structure damage.

Under the Spoiler is the CBT Heat Table so you can see it if you want or Have never seen it

Spoiler

CBT Game Turn for those who have never played
Round start
Movement
Range Combat
Melee Combat
Heat Phase (where heat sinks remove the Heat you made in the above action)
Heat Penalties applied for the next round from left over heat using the Heat Table
New Round

Edited by wolf74, 22 August 2016 - 05:55 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Also think that the current energy draw mechanic has some beauty to upgrade the mwo heat system into something beautifull.

maybe you have a internal "temporal" heat sink - this is based on the of the number of heatsinks. (yes number not value or sum)
the second is the dissipation rate - you have 2-5sec based on "size" of the Mech to cool down this value.

After this time the remaining heat bleed into the BattleMech - dissipation is much slower here and each heat point reduceds the combat ability of your Mech (no steps - but a constant penalty)

Quick Example:

Panther fires PPC - 13 SHS - iDissipation = 2.6 - after 2.5sec (35t mech with area of xy m²) 3.5heat remains and bleed into the Mech - max speed, acceleration, twist speed, lock on time.... is reduced by 12% - dissipation of Mech is again based on the number of heatsinks so 1.3 per second.

hm quick sketch look promising:


Anyhow this system works only as long as there are penalties for the external heatscale.
my assumption:

• internal threshold = number of heatsinks
  
• internal dissipation = tt dissipation rate x 2
  
• external threshold =30
  
• external dissipation = number of heatsinks / 10

Edited by Karl Streiger, 21 August 2016 - 11:56 PM.

[kapusta11]

I bet 1:1 adaptation of 3025 heat scale is exactly what people around here want, they just don't know it.

It would look much like that "new" energy draw system of PGI except for:

- 30 energy cap turns into X heat cap, where X is amount of single heat sinks you have.

- Instead of 0.5 heat penalty for every 1 point of energy above the max you'd take:

• a mobility hit for 5 pts above X heat cap,
  
• an accuracy hit for 8 pts
  
• more severe mobility penalty for 10 pts.
  
• shutdown chance at 13
  
• ammo explosion at 19
  
• etc. (consult TT heat scale if you want to know more)

- Heat dissipation is much higher (proportional to weapon cooldown reduction compared to TT)

- 3025 tech means STD engines for everyone which means lower firepower overall. It also means that the only heat sinks available are single heat sinks which means another drop in firepower.

- At this point mixed range loadouts might work pretty well as you don't have enough heat capacity to fire all of your weapons but enough tonnage to bring weapons that excel in its own range bracket.


BUT, for better or worse, we're not in 3025 and that will never happen.

Edited by kapusta11, 21 August 2016 - 11:47 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

kesmai, on 21 August 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

So what do you think?

I think that as long as PGI is at the reins we'll never see anything remotely close to a balanced fun game, let alone "BT game".

Apart from that, square 30 points heat scale with proper penalties, pretty much what Wolf said. Anything else that PGI did/does is just useless fkn bandaiding.

[RedDragon]

kesmai, on 21 August 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

Or in the end maybe pgi's idea is the better one?

That would be a first-timer.

I'm still baffled, even after all these years, by how they go out of their way just to not touch the subject of an actual heat scale. I can only explain it by them not wanting to admit they were wrong all the time - eben if it means a serious negative impact for the game. Something I think is really possible after watching the game go down the drain over the last years.

There are so many things you could do with a real heat scale - not to mention it is right f*cking THERE in the Lore. Heat penalties for hot builds, slower movement, red-/black out, blurred vision, flickering HUD, cone of fire ... You could also add things not directly from TT like making hot mechs glow on the radar for a longer range because sensors can pick them up easily.
Or you could even implement pilot damage, making your pilot die/black out when the mech constantly overheats.
It doesn't have to and can't be exactly like in TT, but you can do a lot of things while still preserving the spirit of BT. But what does PGI do? Put in something completely uncalled for that hasn't got anything to do with BT and doesn't even make sense. After all in BT your engine can put aout a lot more power than necessary, but it will get hotter doing so, that's exactly why TT is balanced by HEAT and not power.

[patataman]

I followed the other thread during the weekend, but i was at work and couldn't log in. ( Curse you, corporate proxy!!! )

I agree that a modified TT heat scale would make a lot of sense even in a FPS enviroment.

Movement penalties: speed reduction, slower torso twist, slower arm movement.
Aiming penalties: delayed convergence, hud flickering, longer lock on times, ghost readings on sensors.
Ammo explosion: i'm fine with rng ammo explosions, as long as the penalty is applied quite high in the scale. Also, allow players to dump ammo when it starts cooking.

wolf74, on 21 August 2016 - 11:23 PM, said:

Ammo Explosions: should be changed to Chance for some Structure damage.

That's a good solution, and it's already implemented.

Shutdown: There was a suggestion in the other thread, with a countdown to shutdown, the higher your heat the shorter the countdown. You would be able to override before the countdown reaches 0. I think that was a very good idea.

[Dago Red]

I'm all for keeping it simple.

As you heat up you lose effective engine size being down to only 2/3 of normal right before shutdown. So you move and twist slower simulating pilot aim penalties. Maybe add some hud flickering and increased lock on time as you go up as well.

I'm really not convinced that either ammo explosion or random internal damage pre shutdown is a good idea.

If we had a proper convergence system I'd suggest that process getting slower as you go up the heat scale as well but that's never going to happen so meh.

[Cabusha]

All great ideas, but it'll never be touched. I remember in VB we never even got to test true Doubles. The Ballance gods said they would be OP, so they instead implemented the scaling heat cap and 1.4 Dubs. They've never looked back and thought, "you know, we never did finish heat penalties besides shutting down".

[Mycrus]

kesmai, on 21 August 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

After reading through my last thread it is obvious for me that an 1:1 adaption of the tt heatscale would be nonsense.
So I would like to ask you guys:
How could an adoption of tt heatscale look like in a real time environment such as mwo?
What needs to be balanced beforehand and what penalties do you think are feasible?

I do think an added mechanic like powerdraw brings nothing on the table that would benefit the game (at least as it I shown on pts).
My own premise is to penalize constant riding the shutdown threshold and increasing ttk.
How can low heat weapons be balanced, or over boating a single weapons (splatcat) made unfavorable without nerfing a certain weapon or play style into the ground.

Or in the end maybe pgi's idea is the better one?

So what do you think?

i'm still clobbering mechs with my oxide at 90% heat... because guess what? override...

heat has like no meaning in this game...

[kesmai]

Cabusha, on 22 August 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

All great ideas, but it'll never be touched. I remember in VB we never even got to test true Doubles. The Ballance gods said they would be OP, so they instead implemented the scaling heat cap and 1.4 Dubs. They've never looked back and thought, "you know, we never did finish heat penalties besides shutting down".

And that is what pgi always does. starting something and not bringing it to an end.
Like the planet descriptions on the fw map.
But maybe this time.

[Airwind]

i can see having a light running around me chain firing will be annoying af. but once they alpha or overheat, and starts to slow down.. sweet justice

[Tarl Cabot]

Airwind, on 22 August 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

i can see having a light running around me chain firing will be annoying af. but once they alpha or overheat, and starts to slow down.. sweet justice

That would be for any class of mechs where the pilot lacked fire control, fired that next weapon/alpha while running warm or hot and causing his mech to slow down even further, slower turns, etc. making it easier pickings.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 22 August 2016 - 06:09 PM.

[Archangel Dino]

It's simple: there would be a 30 Heat Max. like in the TT.

For heat dissipation, it would be # of heat sinks / 10 = heat per second dissipated.

So, if you had 8 heat sinks, your heat dissipation would be 0.8/second.

Or, if you had 6 double heat sinks, it would be 1.2/second.

[Karl Streiger]

I made a simple visualisation of the idea from above:
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

examples stock PNT -9R firing a single PPC
PNT with 2 PPC but 10 DHS firing both
same DHS Panther firing his PPC in chain with 2.5sec break between the shots.

reminder:
internal (energy) rating= number of heatsinks
internal dissipation = 2x dissipation rate of heatsinks (2.6 for 13 SHS; 4 for 10 DHS)
external rating = 30
external dissipation = number of heatsinks / 10

heat in external bar causes penalties (in this case reduction of speed = mobility)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 August 2016 - 05:17 AM.

[El Bandito]

I assume this TT heat scale is able to control dakka boating? Or Gauss?

Edited by El Bandito, 23 August 2016 - 06:14 AM.

[Dago Red]

El Bandito, on 23 August 2016 - 06:14 AM, said:

I assume this TT heat scale is able to control dakka boating? Or Gauss?

Irresponsible dakka boating maybe.

Gauss was straight up power creep even on tabletop so other than giving it actual heat I'm not sure what you could do to fix it.

[Karl Streiger]

El Bandito, on 23 August 2016 - 06:14 AM, said:

I assume this TT heat scale is able to control dakka boating? Or Gauss?

of course not - their limiter is ammunition not heat
- if i had to start i would limit the amount of ammunition a mech can carry and reduce the shots per ton back to tt standard - but i would make the recharge faster
for example 5sec per gauss but 7.5sec per PPC

last not least i would grant the Gauss the 8 heat it deserves

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 August 2016 - 06:53 AM.

[El Bandito]

Karl Streiger, on 23 August 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

of course not - their limiter is ammunition not heat
- if i had to start i would limit the amount of ammunition a mech can carry and reduce the shots per ton back to tt standard - but i would make the recharge faster
for example 5sec per gauss but 7.5sec per PPC

last not least i would grant the Gauss the 8 heat it deserves

Mere 5 shots for AC20? Really?

[Karl Streiger]

El Bandito, on 23 August 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

Mere 5 shots for AC20? Really?

jup - its enough when every shot count....and with 2-2.5sec reloads you run dry very fast

Edited by Karl Streiger, 23 August 2016 - 06:56 AM.