30 replies to this topic

[Stealthrider]

So I'm about ready to take my MWO experience to a higher level, which means optimizing/improving my current mechs' builds. Only just got my 4th mech and loving it, and I feel effective on all 4 of my mechs, but I wanted to get some critique and advice from more experienced players about how to make them better, and maybe some feedback on how well or poorly constructed they are.

First off, my baby, the first thing I bought as soon as I could afford it, my Arctic Cheetah

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bd06a80310a8da3

I play it like a scout/harasser, running around and scouting for my team and occasionally finishing off weaker targets, and generally being a nuisance.

Next, my two Shadowcat builds that I switch between depending on what I feel like doing.

LRMs
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cef4247e8781f66

Large lasers and SRMs
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a84ea895a98448c

Usually I play both as heavy support, providing ECM and light mech protection as well as additional firepower for my lance.


My Warhammer, which is probably too generalized I admit, but I didn't like being defenseless at long range (used to be large pulses instead of large lasers)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...daf154539712b56


And finally my newest, my Shadow Hawk. I saw the AC/2s build in a vid a friend showed me, knew I had to try it myself. It's *hilarious*. The SRM 2 is mostly 'cause I found I wasn't needing more AC/2 ammo, but was lacking in up-close power, so I figured why not.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...453612dfe7f9a7d

And there you have it, my current mech stable. I know it's split between Clans and IS; my unit switches between the two, though we don't do much faction play. So, what did I do wrong? What needs fixing, what can I get away with, and what did I do right, if anything?

Thanks.

Edited by Stealthrider, 22 August 2016 - 08:33 PM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Stealthrider, on 22 August 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

So I'm about ready to take my MWO experience to a higher level, which means optimizing/improving my current mechs' builds. Only just got my 4th mech and loving it, and I feel effective on all 4 of my mechs, but I wanted to get some critique and advice from more experienced players about how to make them better, and maybe some feedback on how well or poorly constructed they are.

First off, my baby, the first thing I bought as soon as I could afford it, my Arctic Cheetah

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bd06a80310a8da3

I play it like a scout/harasser, running around and scouting for my team and occasionally finishing off weaker targets, and generally being a nuisance.

Next, my two Shadowcat builds that I switch between depending on what I feel like doing.

LRMs
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cef4247e8781f66

Large lasers and SRMs
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a84ea895a98448c

Usually I play both as heavy support, providing ECM and light mech protection as well as additional firepower for my lance.


My Warhammer, which is probably too generalized I admit, but I didn't like being defenseless at long range (used to be large pulses instead of large lasers)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...daf154539712b56


And finally my newest, my Shadow Hawk. I saw the AC/2s build in a vid a friend showed me, knew I had to try it myself. It's *hilarious*. The SRM 2 is mostly 'cause I found I wasn't needing more AC/2 ammo, but was lacking in up-close power, so I figured why not.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...453612dfe7f9a7d

And there you have it, my current mech stable. I know it's split between Clans and IS; my unit switches between the two, though we don't do much faction play. So, what did I do wrong? What needs fixing, what can I get away with, and what did I do right, if anything?

Thanks.

Edit: edited my post to be more constructive...

First off- your arctic cheetas armor values seem rather low in the torsos... but i am not a light pilot so ill leave that to more experienced light pilots to comment on.

About your LRM boat shadowcat.. I personally think your not taking full advantage of the capabilities of the shadowcat by equipping LRMs... But If you must load LRMs on it... You "might" want to consider more ammo (even if you must shrink the launcher sizes). I am not very versed in LRMs, so once again, I'll leave this subject to others more experienced with indirrect fire.

Now about your LL srm shadowcat. You should probably max out your armor in the torsos, and maybe front load them more. i would probably have at most 6-8 in the rears. Honestly, I would probably remove the srm launchers completelly and swap the LLs to LPLs and more heatsinks plus more total armor.

Ok, onto your warhammer. With the current system, its very hard to justify a heavy mech with a lot of energy points, to only run 2 Large type lasers when you can run 3. I would recommend running either 3x LL or 3x LPL... Backed up by medium lasers probably. Also you armor values or extremelly low... Max out you torsos please, even if that means you have to drop the missle launchers.

Heres an example of something... Idk if its the most optimum, but its definatelly viable I think.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5931d44b025eee2

I know you said you swapped out of LPLs because you dont like being defenseless at long range but... Most engagements revolve around LPL range or less. Use terrain to close the distance if needed, you probably had a problem because your armor values were so abysmal.

Heres a different take... 3x ER LL for your long range shooting, and it still has some srm launchers for close range. (i would personally not pilot this mech... But its the closest i could get to yor original build...)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8c3a78fc658badf

Heres a mean 5x LL build taken straight from metamechs.com
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...febab7085782f46

Lastly the shadowhawk... i am personally not a fan of AC2s but if you simply must run them... You must front load your armor because of the face time you will expose yourself too! Run a max of 4 in the rears, and max the rest forward! Once again drop some weaponry to do this! Also... Case and IS XL engines dont work, and you will end up dieing anyway if you loose that torso. Infact, that build is probably the worst out all your mechs, you might have to either out the ammo in an arm or the legs... And completelly remove the case... I actually have no idea how to save that build. Sorry bro

Ending note... Please MAX out torso armor. Center torso... Right torso... And left torso, please Max these values!!!

Edited by Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, 22 August 2016 - 11:28 PM.

[CJ Daxion]

Shadow Hawk.. I'd do this.. Use your arms as a shield, but seeing your main weapons on on your left,.. put more armor in that side. It's an XL build, so you are going to die if you loose an ST anyway, so the laser in the arm is worth nothing, same with the SRM in the head.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8e6fb5c20278320


You could also drop 1 the 1 ton of ammo in the right torso, and stuff in an STD 255, that would give you your whole Right side to tank with.. A bit slower, but way more survivable.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

CJ Daxion, on 22 August 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:

Shadow Hawk.. I'd do this.. Use your arms as a shield, but seeing your main weapons on on your left,.. put more armor in that side. It's an XL build, so you are going to die if you loose an ST anyway, so the laser in the arm is worth nothing, same with the SRM in the head.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8e6fb5c20278320


You could also drop 1 the 1 ton of ammo in the right torso, and stuff in an STD 255, that would give you your whole Right side to tank with.. A bit slower, but way more survivable.

This is definatelly a step in the right direction. this might be the only way to run a shadowhawk ac2 boat...

I personally would consider changing to 2x ac5s and maybe a ppc (or LPL) and an xl engine of some type. But thats my personal bias, take my opion with a grain of salt on this subject.

[NeoCodex]

I'd suggest a tag on the Shadowcat if you really want to do LRMs.

But what it does best is the twin PPC poptart build. I've won, and also lost some games to it, it just happened yesterday on that new alpine highlands map, there was a lone SHC sniper pecking off and eventually finishing our wounded assaults from range. He had top damage and kills on the team. But that was a lucky game and map for him.

It's just hard to use it in this niche role. The mech is kind of fun but in overall performance for pug drops it's unreliable and bad. There are games you'll be able to do something if the match is dragging on, but in quick brawl rushes you'll be completely useless.

Edited by NeoCodex, 22 August 2016 - 11:39 PM.

[ImperialKnight]

ACH: It's too hot. there's a reason why most ACH pilots do 6xSPL or 6xSLas builds.

SHC: LRM build way too dependent on the team doing well. SHC is too fragile to do SRM brawl. i've tried all sorts of SHC builds, 2xLPLas or 2xERPPCs are still the best builds

WHM: the 7S is the weakest of the 3 variants. run this if you're doing the 7S

SHD: the 2H is a terribly variant. sell it and get the better variants (2K, 2D, 2D2). who am i kidding. sell it and get the HBK-IIC series.
if you, for some reason, absolutely must do a 3xAC2 build, try this
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c4b72d5b666b125

[Eaerie]

Right off the bat your warhammer is down 30 points of armor in the CT. You will die easily to any mech with a decent alpha

[Whiskey Dharma]

knightsljx, on 23 August 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

SHD: the 2H is a terrible variant. sell it and get the better variants (2K, 2D, 2D2).

As a new player - what is the problem with the 2H? Is it that it carries multiple ballistic slots, instead of the missile slots of the 2D2? The 2D in particular seems meh, except that it has more laser slots in the arms...

[PaquIS]

Whiskey Dharma, on 23 August 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

As a new player - what is the problem with the 2H? Is it that it carries multiple ballistic slots, instead of the missile slots of the 2D2? The 2D in particular seems meh, except that it has more laser slots in the arms...

Well yes thats the thing. Ballistic weapons are heavy so when you only have 50 tons to play with its better to be able to equip more of those much lighter laser or missile based weapons. So for the 2H its more or less you have to go with the triple AC2 which can be decent in certain maps and situations if you get to keep your range and can keep shooting without taking too much fire in return. But thats also its biggest downfall, the facetime required to do any meaningfull damage. As a fire support role its great. I havent' really found any other builds which the 2H would do better than other variants besides the triple AC2 ofc.


@ To the OP
Seems like you are trying to make the builds to suit in all ranges. Thats usually a bad idea especially on light or medium mechs. You will be mediocre at best on all ranges without being good on anything. I would recommend that you first decide which range you want to be able to fight on and then make the build for it and try to do your best to stick in those engagement ranges.

So for example your Shadow Cat, make it either a sniper (ERPPC, Large Laser or Large Pulse Laser) or brawler with as many SRM's as you can fit along with small or medium lasers.

Also as others have pointed out never ever strip any armor from center or side torsos on any mech and in case of the light mechs make sure you always have full leg armor as well. You can reduce or completely remove armor from arms if they dont have any/much weapons on them or they do poor job on shielding like on the Mad Dog for example.

Head armor is another place where you can also reduce it since dying on headshot is extremely rare. I usually have around 10-12 points of armor on head, but on some mechs its even lower than that when I really need to squueze in some extra weight.

Leg armor can be lowered on all other mechs except lights or fast medium mechs like Cicada or Viper if you need some tonnage for something else.

Edited by PaquIS, 23 August 2016 - 10:17 AM.

[Leone]

PaquIS, on 23 August 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

I havent' really found any other builds which the 2H would do better than other variants besides the triple AC2 ofc.

Might I suggest the official Garrison Mech of the Crimson Hand Mercenary Band? Dual uac fives and a trio of Srm fours. It's a beast.

~Leone, former Raid Leader of the Crimson Hand Mercenary Band.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Leone, on 23 August 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

Might I suggest the official Garrison Mech of the Crimson Hand Mercenary Band? Dual uac fives and a trio of Srm fours. It's a beast.

~Leone, former Raid Leader of the Crimson Hand Mercenary Band.

I like this mech- looks good! And packs a whallop!

[Appogee]

Stealthrider, on 22 August 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

CRITIQUE MY MECH BUILDS?

They're crap. They're the kind of thing a new player puts together and wonders why they get their butt handed to them game after game. They're going to cause you to be laughed at in game. Even the noobiest of noobs wouldn't build Mech like these. My cat created better builds when she walked over my keyboard one time while I was in the Mech Lab.

Oh, wait a sec, you wanted constructive criticism...?

For that Warhammer-7S, try 3LPL and 3SRM4 with a 330XL. You'll land more damage, and the extra speed of the XL engine will get you out of trouble and keep you alive much better than the plodding 280STD, even with the extra torso vulnerability.

For the Cheetah, you need to max the leg armor. Those are your biggest asset and vulnerability. Your torsii should be max in the front and 6 in the back. Your mixed loadout might work to an extent, but generally, SPLs, MPLs or ERMLs will work better for you.

Edited by Appogee, 23 August 2016 - 01:03 PM.

[Livaria]

You may want to clarify whether or not you merely want to improve upon your existing builds, and/or to suggest whatever build we think is best despite it being completely different.

Edited by Livaria, 23 August 2016 - 01:10 PM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

I've been mostly running my only Shadow Cat with 2 C ER L (+ECM). I think I've tried 2xC ER PPC over few games too.

Lately I tried LRMs, currently I have 3xLRM5 and 2 M PL. Boating bigger LRMs will make it run out of ammo fast. I don''t think it can carry enough LRM launchers and ammo to be effective, even if you drop other weapons.

But sometimes it's very fun, when you have high position and you are dumping LRMs on enemy below you. They can't see you and they won't look up to see that you are actually in very exposed position pretty close to them. Its' so fun sometimes, and you can't do that with other weapons. Just checked, I have about 1500 missiles with those 3x5 launchhers and it's maybe little too much. But with your 2x10 LRM+A with only 720 missiles seems quite little, once you run out those launchers are dead weight.

So for Shadow cat sniping and flanking works much better.

Edited by Teer5, 23 August 2016 - 05:40 PM.

[Stealthrider]

Thanks for all the advice,I retooled all my mechs taking it all into account.

For starters, I maxed armor on everything, save for the arms on the Shadowhawk and legs on everything but the Cheetah.

On the Cheetah, I've never really had heat issues, though I'd rarely be firing long enough for it to matter. Regardless, I switched to four ER Med Lasers and will try that out for a while. Never really liked the Small/SPL builds, personally.


For the Shadowcat, I'm leaving the LRM build as-is. It does it's job well enough that I'm not sold on going for just-LRMs or shaving off anything for more ammo (usually don't run out except for really long matches, and at that point the MPLs have been enough to finish things, or die trying).

The ERLL build, I dropped the SRMs and added heat sinks, and will make it a dedicated sniper.


On the Warhammer, I experimented with the suggested builds, and eventually settled on 3LPLs, 3SRM4s and two Med Lasers. I know, it sounds like it runs hot, but I haven't had problems so long as I'm not alpha striking every time I can. Put on an XL 275 engine (the one I had on the Shadow Hawk) and I've been doing much better.


Finally, the Shadowhawk. I tried every suggested build, and I wasn't doing nearly as well as I had been with the original. The Ultra AC/5 build was just way too slow and ran out of ammo so quickly, the other AC/2 versions w/o missles didn't feel powerful at all, and overall I missed the one laser too much. Silly as it may seem, having that one laser to deal a bit of extra damage and deal with lights easier really did make a big difference in how well I performed.

That said, I did make changes. I settled on three AC/2s, two SRM/4s and a ML, with an XL 245 engine. I tried slower engines w/more firepower and faster ones with less, and this one seems to split the difference well enough to feel good to play. It's also perfect size in case I decide I prefer two AC/5s and three SRM/4s instead. Played around with that, had mixed feelings about my performance, but I'm still experimenting.

Thanks again for the advice, particularly about the armor. Didn't even realize how much I was missing.

[Void Angel]

Stealthrider, on 22 August 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

And finally my newest, my Shadow Hawk. I saw the AC/2s build in a vid a friend showed me, knew I had to try it myself. It's *hilarious*. The SRM 2 is mostly 'cause I found I wasn't needing more AC/2 ammo, but was lacking in up-close power, so I figured why not.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...453612dfe7f9a7d

Did someone say Shadowhawks?! I love my Shadowhawk, but you'll need to play it a certain way - find a Heavy or Assault that's not trying to hang back at long range, and back them up. Take up position off their left or right shoulder (the side away from cover,) and hit things when they engage; if you time it right, you can peek around the corner (don't get in their way backing up!) and smack whoever just shot at your Big before their weapons cycle. Smash anyone trying to get around your Big, and just generally support whatever they do. Feel free to switch Bigs if you need to, and try not to be the best target the enemy can see - plaster people with that high-mounted AC over the top of cover and other 'mechs. I call this the "Hunchbuddy tactic," after the 'mech I started using it with.

As for your builds in general - well, nothing is going to perform optimally until you have all the Elite chassis skills bought for it, which means you need three variants of your 'mech chassis to start out. Getting all the Elite skills on any 'mech doubles the effects of the Basic skills, and is a huge benefit to your 'mech's handling, which affects everything the 'mech can do.

Otherwise, making builds to start out, you want to do two things: focus, and iterate:

---

Some people will tell you to deliberately set out to make general-purpose builds; to set up your 'mech so that you "always have something to do" by mixing weapon types between all ranges. These people fail at math. MechWarrior is at its core a game of skilled attrition. Sure, you can position yourself, and maneuver, and skill matters a lot - but at the end of the day BattleMech combat is the process of trading damage to your 'mech for damage to theirs, and using your skills to shift the exchange rate in your favor. This means that making a 'mech that is capable at all ranges ensures that someone else has a big 'mechanical advantage in that exchange. I've seen Atlases mix their builds (possibly the worst chassis in the game for doing this) so that they are projecting the firepower of a Medium Battlemech at any given range - guaranteeing that any focused enemy will beat them one on one. It's ok to splash in some backup weapons (all of my LRM builds, when I play them, have backup lasers,) or to focus on weapons that have a wide range; AC/5s and Inner Sphere Large Lasers come to mind. But make sure you have picked one combat focus for that 'mech and stuck within those parameters. I've had people come to drops I was hosting with two ERPPCs instead of the AC/20s they were told to bring, because the ERPPCs were "more versatile." Don't be that guy.

---

Second, and most importantly; iterate your 'mech builds. What I mean by this is to pay attention to how your build is performing, and make adjustments to fine tune a working build or fix a broken one. Armor balance, for example: where you place your rear armor depends on your performance with it. Most players will place very low numbers on the rear torsos, just enough to ensure that commonly-encountered alpha strikes will not finish off the internal structure. But the actual values needed vary by play style and individual. When I was playing it in an 8-man team (before Faction Play existed,) I would put a large amount of armor on my Atlas' rear torsos. I did this because we were using our Assaults to break up enemy formations, which meant moving through the enemy lines: having a surprising (though not huge) amount of rear torso armor confused enemies who were looking at the damaged internals behind my front armor, making me harder to kill. But I don't do that any more; the introduction of Clan weaponry and the increase to 12-man teams means there's a lot more firepower on the field now - I need all the front armor I can get to survive, and I'm much slower than I used to be relative to the average speed on the field.

So I iterated; if I get killed more from behind than the front, consistently over more than a few matches, I'll swap a couple of points back and see how it feels - or see if I can increase my engine speed to maneuver more and turn faster. You should constantly be doing this with all aspects of your 'mech design: ammo loads, weapon composition, armor, jump jets and speed. Literally everything. You're doing that to at least some degree already, so keep it up, and make sure you're applying it to everything you do - piloting skills can also benefit. Are you shooting too quickly; do you need to work on hitting with a certain weapon type; is your overheating on this build a mechanical issue, or do you need better heat control? Better focus on damage components? Better positioning? Keep asking those kinds of questions periodically, and your builds will continue to improve - as will the skills to use them.

Edited by Void Angel, 23 August 2016 - 07:25 PM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Stealthrider, on 23 August 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

Thanks for all the advice,I retooled all my mechs taking it all into account.

For starters, I maxed armor on everything, save for the arms on the Shadowhawk and legs on everything but the Cheetah.

On the Cheetah, I've never really had heat issues, though I'd rarely be firing long enough for it to matter. Regardless, I switched to four ER Med Lasers and will try that out for a while. Never really liked the Small/SPL builds, personally.


For the Shadowcat, I'm leaving the LRM build as-is. It does it's job well enough that I'm not sold on going for just-LRMs or shaving off anything for more ammo (usually don't run out except for really long matches, and at that point the MPLs have been enough to finish things, or die trying).

The ERLL build, I dropped the SRMs and added heat sinks, and will make it a dedicated sniper.


On the Warhammer, I experimented with the suggested builds, and eventually settled on 3LPLs, 3SRM4s and two Med Lasers. I know, it sounds like it runs hot, but I haven't had problems so long as I'm not alpha striking every time I can. Put on an XL 275 engine (the one I had on the Shadow Hawk) and I've been doing much better.


Finally, the Shadowhawk. I tried every suggested build, and I wasn't doing nearly as well as I had been with the original. The Ultra AC/5 build was just way too slow and ran out of ammo so quickly, the other AC/2 versions w/o missles didn't feel powerful at all, and overall I missed the one laser too much. Silly as it may seem, having that one laser to deal a bit of extra damage and deal with lights easier really did make a big difference in how well I performed.

That said, I did make changes. I settled on three AC/2s, two SRM/4s and a ML, with an XL 245 engine. I tried slower engines w/more firepower and faster ones with less, and this one seems to split the difference well enough to feel good to play. It's also perfect size in case I decide I prefer two AC/5s and three SRM/4s instead. Played around with that, had mixed feelings about my performance, but I'm still experimenting.

Thanks again for the advice, particularly about the armor. Didn't even realize how much I was missing.

We can only show you the door... Its up to you to check the sign to make sure if its a restroom for a male, female, both or if it has a diaper changing table...

Please remember to wash your hands before leaving the restroom!

[Stealthrider]

Void Angel, on 23 August 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

Did someone say Shadowhawks?! I love my Shadowhawk, but you'll need to play it a certain way - find a Heavy or Assault that's not trying to hang back at long range, and back them up. Take up position off their left or right shoulder (the side away from cover,) and hit things when they engage; if you time it right, you can peek around the corner (don't get in their way backing up!) and smack whoever just shot at your Big before their weapons cycle. Smash anyone trying to get around your Big, and just generally support whatever they do. Feel free to switch Bigs if you need to, and try not to be the best target the enemy can see - plaster people with that high-mounted AC over the top of cover and other 'mechs. I call this the "Hunchbuddy tactic," after the 'mech I started using it with.

This is basically what I've been doing, hanging around heavies and assaults and keeping them safe/supporting their firepower. I might try that AC/10 version out though, looks fun, thanks.

[PaquIS]

Leone, on 23 August 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

Might I suggest the official Garrison Mech of the Crimson Hand Mercenary Band? Dual uac fives and a trio of Srm fours. It's a beast.

~Leone, former Raid Leader of the Crimson Hand Mercenary Band.

Well that certainly is something different, but the speed... assaults will be going past me

[Void Angel]

Stealthrider, on 23 August 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

This is basically what I've been doing, hanging around heavies and assaults and keeping them safe/supporting their firepower. I might try that AC/10 version out though, looks fun, thanks.

I love the AC/10 - the sound it makes when it recycles is like the old Garand.