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Impromptu Pts Discussion During Downtime


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#1 Deathlike

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 08:33 AM

I know this is super short notice and frankly I would've posted this yesterday (but I was just grinding out the challenge stuff).

I will try to be on @ 1PM or so (running errands at the moment) when the servers are down, and the PTS will still be up. Hopefully we can form some matches and discuss issues around the newfangled energy draw and other related stuff.

For TS, I believe Stranamechty will be the place. I'll just copypasta the stuff that you need to know:

IP: STRANAMECHTY.INFO
PW: StranaMechty

Whatever we get to, will be posted here or posted separately in the correct subforum.

Again, sorry for the short notice.

#2 Deathlike

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:26 AM

Well, nothing happened. Oh well.

I did enough matches to draw a specific conclusion. I'll probably need more testing, but I'm pretty sure the overall opinion will not change.

#3 FallingAce

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:31 AM

Well, there was only about 10 people on, and most of them were in xImpalerx twitch stream

https://www.twitch.tv/ximpalerx

teamspeak Tuesday.

#4 Deathlike

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:32 AM

Yay leaderboard distractions!

#5 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:34 AM

I went on the TS server but I did not see anyone there so I went to the grocery store instead of logging in.

#6 Lostdragon

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:36 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 August 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

Well, nothing happened. Oh well.

I did enough matches to draw a specific conclusion. I'll probably need more testing, but I'm pretty sure the overall opinion will not change.


Interested to know your opinion of the system.

#7 Deathlike

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:49 AM

View PostLostdragon, on 23 August 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

Interested to know your opinion of the system.


It's straightforward.

It doesn't really aim to fix what ails the game.

There are a fair bit of PPFLD builds that mitigates this behavior (2 PPC+Gauss and variations) what hurts most are laservomit builds that are of two different weapon types. We're talking about LPL/LL + ML/MPL combos.

So, say you have a Wubshee, 3LPL+5ML.

With the current game's Ghost Heat, there is no penalty, but it runs stupid hot (just like many classic laser vomit builds - this includes the Clans). We're talking about 50% heat (assuming heat neutral map).

If I try to run that in the PTS, the heat goes wild into the ~80% range.

Adjusting the 3LPL to a few mediums doesn't seem to work, because there's an audible penalty that comes with that.

What is most likely going to result (based on the current values) is that hybrid builds back in the Ghost Heat era will be more prominent in the form of 3LPL or 2 (or 3?) CLPL + dakka will be more of a thing for heavier mechs. Straight laser vomiting becomes more of a liability than anything else. Other combinations (lasers+SRMs, PPCs+SRMs) will still be OK, but straight laservomiting of multiple types is not going to work (RIP Black Knight).

The bigger issue is how a smaller weapon like the Medium Laser is weighed relative to the Large (Pulse) Laser as they are weighed differently in usefulness and bracket range (and most of that is paid in tonnage). The mere fact that they are weighed the same in Ghost Heat v2 is damn batpoop crazy.


So.. it hurts laservomit (which for the most part isn't as good as it once was) more than any other type of build. Common LPL+ML combinations are pretty bad, and I don't understand why they are in the same weighed boat. It makes no sense.

Ultimately, weapon diversity is lowered and mostly in the weaker laser areas (IS Small Lasers, which are scarce in the current game, IS SPL may also be affected).

Edited by Deathlike, 23 August 2016 - 11:00 AM.


#8 Lostdragon

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:56 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 August 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:


It's straightforward.

It doesn't really aim to fix what ails the game.

There are a fair bit of PPFLD builds that mitigates this behavior (2 PPC+Gauss and variations) what hurts most are laservomit builds that are of two different weapon types. We're talking about LPL/LL + ML/MPL combos.

So, say you have a Wubshee, 3LPL+5ML.

With the current game's Ghost Heat, there is no penalty, but it runs stupid hot (just like many classic laser vomit builds - this includes the Clans). We're talking about 50% heat (assuming heat neutral map).

If I try to run that in the PTS, the heat goes wild into the ~80% range.

Adjusting the 3LPL to a few mediums doesn't seem to work, because there's an audible penalty that comes with that.

What is most likely going to result (based on the current values) is that hybrid builds back in the Ghost Heat era will be more prominent in the form of 3LPL or 2 (or 3?) CLPL + dakka will be more of a thing for heavier mechs. Straight laser vomiting becomes more of a liability than anything else. Other combinations (lasers+SRMs, PPCs+SRMs) will still be OK, but straight laservomiting of multiple types is not going to work (RIP Black Knight).

The bigger issue is how a smaller weapon like the Medium Laser is weighed relative to the Large (Pulse) Laser as they are weighed differently in usefulness and bracket range (and most of that is paid in tonnage). The mere fact that they are weighed the same is damn batpoop crazy.


So.. it hurts laservomit (which for the most part isn't as good as it once was) more than any other type of build. Common LPL+ML combinations are pretty bad, and I don't understand why they are in the same weighed boat. It makes no sense.

Ultimately, weapon diversity is lowered and mostly in the weaker laser areas (IS Small Lasers, which are scarce in the current game, IS SPL may also be affected).


Pretty much in line with what I think too. They are going to have to adjust energy draw on a per weapon basis and it is going to end up being yet another overly complicated problem to fix a relatively simple issue. They will have to add a power draw stat to every weapon in mechlab and a total for the build or it will wind up being unrepresented in the mechlab UI exceot maybe as a warning like GH.

#9 Mystere

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:00 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 August 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

good stuff


Weapon range should be made part of ED. MLs being rated the same as LLs is just bonkers.

Edited by Mystere, 23 August 2016 - 11:01 AM.


#10 FallingAce

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:13 AM

All this effort to limit Alpha strikes.

End result, less alpha strikes while throwing another wrench in the balance system.

Just what we don't need. Another balancing tool for PGI.

#11 Davegt27

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:15 AM

any progress?

#12 Deathlike

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:41 AM

View PostDavegt27, on 23 August 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

any progress?


Progress on what exactly?

I'm aware some sort of PTS update will happen at some point, but there's no definitive date.

#13 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:46 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 August 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

I will try to be on @ 1PM or so (running errands at the moment) when the servers are down

*cough*someofusarestillatwork*cough*

#14 Deathlike

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 11:52 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 23 August 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

*cough*someofusarestillatwork*cough*


I know.

Don't sweat it.

I do have more stuff I need to test personally. Maybe I'll set up a different date this week (for everyone else that has a life, except me :P ).

Would that interest you?

#15 Davegt27

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:40 PM

I jumped on team speak to listen in but did not see anyone

was wondering if you guys where still in discussion

#16 Deathlike

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:42 PM

View PostDavegt27, on 23 August 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

I jumped on team speak to listen in but did not see anyone

was wondering if you guys where still in discussion


Noone came. Didn't happen (I was late anyways, but lol ok). I spent time on the PTS anyways.

We can try again another time if people want.

#17 Ultimax

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:54 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 August 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

So.. it hurts laservomit (which for the most part isn't as good as it once was) more than any other type of build. Common LPL+ML combinations are pretty bad, and I don't understand why they are in the same weighed boat. It makes no sense.



They are weighted in the same boat of damage dealt, because that is the opposite of the current system of Ghost Heat that penalizes specific weapons being boated.

Pick your poison.

If they are weighted less, than laser vomit (the cause of many tears on these forums, and likely one of the main contributors to ED in the first place) gets to continue and people continue to boat them.

If they are weighted equally, then players will boat a smaller number of large weapons to get better range.

Personally I don't feel they should be weighted less. You pay 7 tons for the LPL, you pay 2 tons for the MLAS.

That's the trade off.

Higher damage per ton, shorter range.
Lower damage per ton, longer range.

I'm not saying we need ED, I don't care if the current GH stays and ED never goes live - but the reality is that there isn't much middle ground, either a bunch of light weapons with a few big weapons will be boated or a small number of big weapons will be boated.

#18 FallingAce

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 01:00 PM

Too bad PGI didn't announce:

Hey guys, while the regular servers are down, the PTS servers are still up. Jump on and give them a whirl.




#19 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 01:02 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 August 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

I do have more stuff I need to test personally. Maybe I'll set up a different date this week (for everyone else that has a life, except me Posted Image ).

Would that interest you?

Potentially, the burnout is real though.

#20 Deathlike

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 01:12 PM

View PostUltimax, on 23 August 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

They are weighted in the same boat of damage dealt, because that is the opposite of the current system of Ghost Heat that penalizes specific weapons being boated.

Pick your poison.

If they are weighted less, than laser vomit (the cause of many tears on these forums, and likely one of the main contributors to ED in the first place) gets to continue and people continue to boat them.

If they are weighted equally, then players will boat a smaller number of large weapons to get better range.

Personally I don't feel they should be weighted less. You pay 7 tons for the LPL, you pay 2 tons for the MLAS.

That's the trade off.

Higher damage per ton, shorter range.
Lower damage per ton, longer range.

I'm not saying we need ED, I don't care if the current GH stays and ED never goes live - but the reality is that there isn't much middle ground, either a bunch of light weapons with a few big weapons will be boated or a small number of big weapons will be boated.


When I was talking about weight... I mean more on the Energy Draw side of the equation... not the mechlab side of it.


View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 23 August 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

Potentially, the burnout is real though.


Well, I have 2 weeks of downtime before the next POE league... so that's why I'm giving more attention to MWO (yes, the burnout is real) and once that date happens... see you guys in a month!

:P





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