96 replies to this topic

[Archangel Dino]

I played MWO when repair/rearm was used.

I then took a hiatus from the game before it was changed, and by the time I got back into the game, repair/rearm was gone.

I'm just curious: why was it removed? Was it problematic for new players with a low skill range? Also, what are the reason(s) for why it won't come back? Or will it come back?

Edited by Archangel Dino, 23 August 2016 - 01:34 PM.

[627]

because it was a tax for losing, added nothing to the gameplay and decreased the viable weapon loadouts yiu could bring to a fight. You didn't dare to lose a big XL engine, you would lose money if you die, even with a win.

[Deathlike]

Premium Time would be the "P2W" option to mitigate a lot of the losses.

Right now, we have a fair number of Mech Romneys to ignore the most of said losses... while the poor new players would get screwed over royally and then some.

[Alistair Winter]

Because it was a poor implementation and most players didn't like it. There were a number of unfortunate side effects with the way it was originally implemented.

No, it will never come back.

The only way to have R&R in a game like this is to redesign the whole game to have a working economy. It would be a completely different game from this. One way would be to copy EVE Online economy, another way would be to copy CounterStrike economy.

[Pjwned]

Flagrantly pay2win.

Didn't and would not do anything to affect the space rich players.

Rewarded pilots for playing badly because selfless actions were punished with a higher repair bill, as well as seeing mechs dropping into battle with armor & ammo missing.

It was just a bad idea for this game and it will never work ever because it's a fundamentally incompatible system for this game.

[FupDup]

The short list:

• Punishes experimentation with new builds because if the build doesn't turn out that good, you just lost a bunch of money.
  
• Punishes players who tank damage for their teammates, because they have to pay C-Bills for it.
  
• Rewards cowardly players who stay at the back because they don't have to pay as much for repair bills.
  
• Punishes the use of all ballistic and missile weapons; makes players want to only use energy weapons so that they don't have to pay rearming bills.
  
• Attempts to justify the idea that bigger mechs should be superior at all times and circumstances, because they cost more to maintain.
  
• Hurt the new player experience massively by making newbs unable to buy anything that can compete with the decked-out veterans being dropped on the enemy team.
  
• People who paid money for Premium Time, Hero Mechs, and/or C-Bill Packs would have superior combat options over players who do not pay money for those things. Pay-2-Win.

It basically didn't add anything to the game other than "immersing" some grognards.

Edited by FupDup, 23 August 2016 - 01:39 PM.

[Deathlike]

R&R literally has to be designed as a reward system... not as a punishment system. Otherwise, we're just going to repeat past problems with the previous base design.

[MoonUnitBeta]

It was a meaningless c-bill sink, with a bunch of pitfalls…

To add to FupDup's list:

• Encouraged people to hide to save their mech damage.
  
• Encouraged people not to use weapons that used ammo.
  
• Not earning enough c-bills would pigeon hole you into 0 c-bills and an always damaged mech.
  
• People abused the freebie auto-repair (up to 30%?), and didn't bother to accept the repair fee to bring their mech back to 100%. Opting to always fight in damaged mechs to save money.

... etc.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 23 August 2016 - 02:19 PM.

[627]

in the end if you want some kind of R&R you have to find some ways to earn money beside the PvP. If we ever see a campaign or coop or whatever PvE they can make this could be a way. But as we only have this arena shooter without mining or trading to pay for combat (how it works in Eve basically) there will never be a fair and interesting implementation.

And I can't remember a single concept from anyone with a good R&R idea for MWO, even if this topic came up every now and then since they dropped the mechanic.

[SuomiWarder]

As you can read, it was dumped because a lot of players felt it was a penalty system rather than a risk-reward system.

[TLBFestus]

As noted above it was implemented without much thought as to its effect on players and they needed to very carefully craft an economy for the game, which they had no idea how to do.

It punished the new player especially because they generally ended up having the most damage and ended up being on c-bill welfare unable to save anything to improve their situation.

[patataman]

I liked R&R. Using expensive equipment and doing poorly had a tax. That's correct, and imho using state of the art tech and doing poorly should be bad for your wallet.

On the other hand, using cheap equipment and doing poorly was a lot cheaper, and promoted the use of lights and mediums with STD engines and without endo and ferro upgrades. That way you could earn money even in mediocre matches.

Imagine cheap mediums being the work horses of the inner sphere... that smells like lore...

Edited by patataman, 23 August 2016 - 02:12 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

627, on 23 August 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

in the end if you want some kind of R&R you have to find some ways to earn money beside the PvP. If we ever see a campaign or coop or whatever PvE they can make this could be a way.

Yep.

If we had proper salvage (getting weapons, armor, omnipods, chunks of mechs, etc etc etc.) and a market to sell items on, R&R would have a place as one of the forces driving market prices. Creating a healthy demand for players wanting to circumnavigate repair costs from damage and the cost of new items. Adjusting the cost of repairs will have it's effect on the market, but a happy medium could create an alternative way to save, and even earn, c-bills.

Without that though, R&R is arbitrary as it doesn't fulfill any special needs that a simple c-bill income reduction can't already do.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 23 August 2016 - 02:20 PM.

[dervishx5]

If you want to experience what a R&R MWO would have been like for a new player then start a new account on a Planetside 2 server.

Enjoy being cheaply killed by super-upgraded veterans over and over.

[SamsungNinja]

Because it was the worst idea since Lincoln decided he wanted to go to the theatre?

[burns]

Players intentionally dropping w/o armor &/or ammo was ..... weird!
Can´t say i did´nt uncheck the auto repair button on my commando every once in a while either. So there´s that.


Back in the day there was a game called Earth Siege. Pure SP, R&R & frickin salvage!
Oh those tasty ELF-leg-farming days

Edited by burns, 23 August 2016 - 02:30 PM.

[Fart Huffer]

Its really quite incredible just how terrible this dev team is at balancing the game. Went back to MW4Merchs for a while to get my MW fix because this game just doesnt do it. Terrible.

THis game would be a lot more fun if they gave you a sht tone more Cbillz to buy a fleet of mech with but you had to wait for them to repair for a while if you didnt want to spend extra money speeding up the process.

[Archangel Dino]

patataman, on 23 August 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

I liked R&R. Using expensive equipment and doing poorly had a tax. That's correct, and imho using state of the art tech and doing poorly should be bad for your wallet.

On the other hand, using cheap equipment and doing poorly was a lot cheaper, and promoted the use of lights and mediums with STD engines and without endo and ferro upgrades. That way you could earn money even in mediocre matches.

Imagine cheap mediums being the work horses of the inner sphere... that smells like lore...

That's exactly what my thought process was. If you're using Endo-Steel, XL Engines, and FF Armor, then OFCOURSE it's going to hurt your wallet - and it should - because you're paying for serious gear. The way the game is now, IS Mech builds almost always have Endo-Steel on. I think R&R could work but it would have to be done with a new system in mind.

Edited by Archangel Dino, 23 August 2016 - 03:15 PM.

[Nammuz]

Archangel Dino, on 23 August 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

That's exactly what my thought process was. If you're using Endo-Steel, XL Engines, and FF Armor, then OFCOURSE it's going to hurt your wallet - and it should - because you're paying for serious gear. The way the game is now, IS Mech builds almost always have Endo-Steel on. I think R&R could work but it would have to be done with a new system in mind.

This is precisely the kind of thinking that lead to Battlefleet Gothic Armada using their campaign loss system on multiplayer. It kills the community because if you lose a few matches (and with a learning curve like MWO people will lose a lot in the beginning) so people stop playing because it's not fun (or even playable after a few matches).

[Bill Lumbar]

Alistair Winter, on 23 August 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Because it was a poor implementation and most players didn't like it. There were a number of unfortunate side effects with the way it was originally implemented.

No, it will never come back.

The only way to have R&R in a game like this is to redesign the whole game to have a working economy. It would be a completely different game from this. One way would be to copy EVE Online economy, another way would be to copy CounterStrike economy.

Well said.... and that would be to much work I guess and to much like a real game for PGI to put into effect in this game? Some real depth.... something please.... please??