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#1 Sable

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 03:26 PM

Fantastic changes i must say. All the good suggestions were implemented for amazing results. One of them didn't get in there and that was the power taking just a little bit longer to regen but now i'm totally ok with how it turned out so i guess that was a good one to ignore. I still don't quite understand how some people are saying this is bad, terrible, blah blah keep ghost heat. In every instance i've tested there has been a slowdown of time to kill and reasonable risks for going over your energy limit. I think Navid was saying all his builds would be useless if this went live, and to that i have to say, maybe you're builds weren't all that good to begin with. Almost every build i've played and had to adjust for ended up being even better than before. A lot of them i didn't even have to make any changes because they work well under the new system. I always built around the concepts of sustained fire and longevity of a mech. I never built around super high alpha damage. And maybe that's the key.

Super high alphas addressed - check
Slow down time to kill - check
Not limiting loadouts - check
Gauss charge up removed, but with proper risk + alpha damage pairing addressed - check


The last one there is especially interesting. I tested out double gauss and guass + mixed builds for quite a while last night and i'm truly impressed with how they dealt with it. You can fire 2 gauss for about 10% heat but if you fire one at a time there's no heat. It's enough to make a difference in a fight where heat levels are key but not enough to be absurd. But even when adding one additional weapon that heat begins to skyrocket. It will keep people from using it like it used to be. Classic example Double gauss, double PPC direwolf. ERPPCs both fired, 28% heat, double gauss fired 10% heat. Fire it all together a whopping 85% heat. So yes it's still possible to alphastrike but the usefullness of doing it vs stagger firing becomes glaringly clear. DON'T DO IT. People with trigger discipline will be the true kings of mechwarrior.

LBXs are amazing now in comparison to regular auto cannons. I think PGI has finally found a useful spot for them. They are low heat, low energy draw, short cooldown damage spewing blessings. Mixing them in with other energy or missile builds allows you to fire something while you wait to cooldown from higher heat weapons. A 4 LBX10, 4 medium laser Kodiak does amazing. Your lasers heat you up pretty quickly and then you can chainfire the LBX10s to your hearts content while you wait to cooldown.

LRMs seem to stick out a little but honestly... who cares. Since people won't be boating such high alpha striking mechs they might actually take an AMS as they adjust builds.

I've read a lot of other posts and i can't believe how afraid and cynical some people are about energy draw. I can only see a bright future for Mechwarrior with these changes. I'm sure some further tweaking might be necessary but i'd be totally happy if they dropped this build into live as is.

My few complaints are the sound effect of going over energy. It seems so bland. It doesn't quite have the coolness factor to it. And the ERPPC heat going up to 15. PPC heat i understand going up to 10 but ERs were just so hot already.

Edited by Sable, 24 August 2016 - 07:22 PM.


#2 ScarecrowES

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 03:35 PM

View PostSable, on 24 August 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

I've read a lot of other posts and i can't believe how afraid and cynical some people are about energy draw. I can only see a bright future for Mechwarrior with these changes. I'm sure some further tweaking might be necessary but i'd be totally happy if they dropped this build into live as is.


If by "bright future" you mean "servers shutting down" I'd certainly agree. I guarantee if what we're seeing on the PTS hit the live servers, you'd see a mass exodus of players.

No blowing smoke there. Mass exodus.

#3 Nightmare1

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 03:52 PM

These changes for PTS 2 aren't well planned. There is a "slight" imbalance regarding ballistics, so PGI increases the heat by 20%? That is not a "slight" change; that's on the order of one-fifth!

Brawling is dead and PGI recognizes the community's concern regarding the extinction of the AC/20, so its solution is to increase that weapon's heat. This would be laughable if it was not so sickeningly sad.

PPC heat is going up again as well.

If PGI would like us to fight with rocks and pointed sticks, then they should just say so instead of slowly crushing our souls like this. I'm one of those players that has a dozen meta builds for comp play and then 100 non-meta "fun" or troll builds for casual play. Nearly all of my builds are invalidated now, even the silly ones that weren't effective. There really doesn't seem to be any objective with these changes.

What about Assaults? With all these heat penalties, there won't be a reason to own an Atlas. Why make yourself such an easy target when you can't fight back because of overheat? Lights and Mediums will become the go-to Mechs because they will be able to alpha while moving at high speeds without suffering major heat impacts.

All this PTS will do, is kill off the heavier Mechs, put the final coffin nail in brawling, and make pinpoint weapons a laughable waste of time. Energy weapons will remain the meta which just goes to show that PGI doesn't know what it's doing since it's nerfing the very weapons it should be buffing, to bring them in line with the actual meta.

I really like this game and was confidently telling someone that there was no way it could fail before its license expired just recently. In light of this PTS change though, I am no longer sure about that. There's very little in it to please old-time vets like me, who have stuck by PGI all this time. There also isn't anything in it to attract new blood.

PGI took a staggering step in the right direction with its initial PTS for Energy Draw, but, rather than finding their stride, they've instead fallen flat one their collective faces.

#4 Navid A1

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 04:53 PM

View PostSable, on 24 August 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

I've read a lot of other posts and i can't believe how afraid and cynical some people are about energy draw. I can only see a bright future for Mechwarrior with these changes. I'm sure some further tweaking might be necessary but i'd be totally happy if they dropped this build into live as is.


You just wait and see. The moment this ED gets on live server.. the MWO count down will start ticking.
We'll see how bright that future will be.

6 months later the exact same people praising this system will be crying again on the forums.

#5 I L L

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 04:59 PM

RIP. I won't be playing if these changes are implemented on the real client. Already getting refunds on my pre-orders.

#6 Sable

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:54 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 24 August 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

These changes for PTS 2 aren't well planned. There is a "slight" imbalance regarding ballistics, so PGI increases the heat by 20%? That is not a "slight" change; that's on the order of one-fifth!

Brawling is dead and PGI recognizes the community's concern regarding the extinction of the AC/20, so its solution is to increase that weapon's heat. This would be laughable if it was not so sickeningly sad.

It might be considered that if the lower heat over all didn't counter what you say. I mean having to pace your shots instead of mashing fire every time your weapons are off cooldown has made a huge difference in gameplay for me. Most of my builds i've droped at least 2 heatsinks and one i've dropped 4. Pacing your weapon fire reaps better heat management overall. And i've tried this with not only my own builds but with as many meta mechs as i could think of. Instead of alpha'ing all the damage in 1 second you have to do do shots over 3 seconds.

Example 1 - metawhore timberwolf with 2 large pulse, 4 er mediums. Shoot the large pulse then when energy bar is full again 1.5 seconds later you shoot your er mediums.

Example 2 - direwolf with 2 ERPPCS, 2 Gauss rifles. you shoot either the gauss rifles first then 1.5 seconds later the ERPPCs or the other way around. It's the same damage just not all at once in one spot AND over 3 seconds instead of 1.

I just don't get the doom and gloom that can come from 2 extra seconds, or how stagger firing breaks every single build you could possibly have. Most of my mechs i only had to change weapon groups a little so i could stagger fire comfortably. Four out of my five timberwolves will remain exactly the same as they are now and the last i only need to remove one extra medium laser to remain under the energy limit. All my direwolves are already fine stagger firing anyway. Only my kodiak 3 needed adjusting because of not the heat but of how much energy it takes to fire them. you can still fire 4UAC10s in pairs of 2 pretty effectively if you again... pace your button mashing. It's like you haven't ever not alphastriked before.


View PostNightmare1, on 24 August 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

What about Assaults? With all these heat penalties, there won't be a reason to own an Atlas. Why make yourself such an easy target when you can't fight back because of overheat? Lights and Mediums will become the go-to Mechs because they will be able to alpha while moving at high speeds without suffering major heat impacts.

All this PTS will do, is kill off the heavier Mechs, put the final coffin nail in brawling, and make pinpoint weapons a laughable waste of time. Energy weapons will remain the meta which just goes to show that PGI doesn't know what it's doing since it's nerfing the very weapons it should be buffing, to bring them in line with the actual meta.

It might be true to say lights won't be effected by this as much as assualts but light mechs will have to pace their weapon fire more too. Damage all around is slowing down. NOT REDUCED, just slowed down in pacing.


View PostNightmare1, on 24 August 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

PGI took a staggering step in the right direction with its initial PTS for Energy Draw, but, rather than finding their stride, they've instead fallen flat one their collective faces.

And that is assuming that this is THE final build that will go live. Instead of making i'm gonna quit or refund threats why not provide your feedback and see what happens. The live patch just happened this week that means we have at least a month before the next "possible" patch and this is the second round on PTS in 5 days.

#7 Navid A1

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 08:28 PM

View PostSable, on 24 August 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

And that is assuming that this is THE final build that will go live. Instead of making i'm gonna quit or refund threats why not provide your feedback and see what happens. The live patch just happened this week that means we have at least a month before the next "possible" patch and this is the second round on PTS in 5 days.

It pretty much is the final thing, according to some... sources.

And people did give feedback.
Yet PTS2 confirmed that none of those feedbacks were taken from this part of the forums. it was from a single youtube video from 1 person.

So now... people won't bother.

#8 East Indy

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 03:50 AM

Sable -- these are positive changes. Some people just don't want their playstyle and pride therein affected, and others don't understand test processes when a developer is actively listening to iteration feedback.

As you know, players have been threatening to take their ball and go home for 4 years. People disagree, and some people need to assert control.

#9 Sable

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 04:20 AM

View PostNavid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 08:28 PM, said:

It pretty much is the final thing, according to some... sources.

And people did give feedback.
Yet PTS2 confirmed that none of those feedbacks were taken from this part of the forums. it was from a single youtube video from 1 person.

So now... people won't bother.

What are you talking about Navid? Almost every single positive suggestion i've seen from feedback, PGI put into this build. And i can make a guess by the way you say energy draw is terrible/horrible blah blah blah, that your feedback was possibly unreasonable and thus, ignored.

View PostEast Indy, on 25 August 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Sable -- these are positive changes. Some people just don't want their playstyle and pride therein affected, and others don't understand test processes when a developer is actively listening to iteration feedback.

As you know, players have been threatening to take their ball and go home for 4 years. People disagree, and some people need to assert control.

Thanks for the comment. It's nice to hear some reassurance and know that i'm not crazy for thinking this PTS round 2 build has a lot of promise.

Edited by Sable, 25 August 2016 - 04:20 AM.


#10 Tiantara

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 04:27 AM

View PostSable, on 25 August 2016 - 04:20 AM, said:

PTS round 2 build has a lot of promise.


- Except not a good implementation of gauss crit chance to explode even from little heat damage.
I really wish to see changing 100% chance to 96% when it ready to fire and to 88% when it cooldowns and can't fire.
Right now that gun become nitroglycerin bottle.

#11 Quardak

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 04:41 AM

That MWO-goes-down-discussion is so old as the game is. Every Patch someone grab his Pitchfork and Torch and predict the near End!

Looks like some Meta-Player are not amused that more then 1 Button is needed in the near future.

...anyone a White Hood?...

#12 ScarecrowES

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 04:58 AM

View PostQuardak, on 25 August 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

That MWO-goes-down-discussion is so old as the game is. Every Patch someone grab his Pitchfork and Torch and predict the near End!

Looks like some Meta-Player are not amused that more then 1 Button is needed in the near future.

...anyone a White Hood?...


OK so... not sure if you played the PTS, but this has been a direct BUFF to meta. The gulf between meta and everything else increased significantly in PTS over the live servers. This is the primary complaint against the system and the reason that half the community is solidly AGAINST ED.

Everything the op mentions testing is fully in line with meta. Of course he's happy.



#13 feeWAIVER

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 05:01 AM

View PostSable, on 24 August 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

Slow down time to kill - check


My biggest concern with ED is raising the TTK, and it's effect on Faction Play.
I fear that gen rushing in FP may become nigh-unstoppable if gens/omega aren't balanced for the new meta.

#14 ScarecrowES

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 05:07 AM

View PostfeeWAIVER, on 25 August 2016 - 05:01 AM, said:


My biggest concern with ED is raising the TTK, and it's effect on Faction Play.
I fear that gen rushing in FP may become nigh-unstoppable if gens/omega aren't balanced for the new meta.



As if TTK was ever a problem to begin with. I mean, if you're not a terribad

#15 JaegerDjinn

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:14 PM

Sable you keep on thinking this is a good thing, I have played this game for 3 years without as much as a week break and when i tried thier stupid idea out on PTS it was the first time i told my team when this hits real play i am done too, and i have alot of money into this game. It is no more then PGI trying too control the game instead of letting it play how it is and not addressing the real problems of the game. So keep telling them they are doing great and see how long your wait times get for drops when everyone is gone. Maybe if enough players state it and go on strike when it drops they will learn and maybe be smart and change it back.

#16 davoodoo

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:28 PM

56 dmg?? super high alphas??

what are you smoking?? Youre super high and not alphas...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dcea5f6f378f627
120 dmg alpha and would generate only 2 heat per turn...

Thats ******* superhigh, 56 is heavy medium heat neutral alpha...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4edf23724a7d4ee
32 heat per turn, 38 dissipated...

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 02:34 PM.


#17 Nightmare1

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:59 PM

View PostSource Mystic, on 25 August 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

My feed back is energy draw should be called How Bad Can This Get 2.0

Lets just make it a acronym H.B.C.T.G 2.0

Lets do this pgi . You have made er and ppc unplayable options but they are now balanced to the H.B.C.T.G system. Now we should normalize the system by making all the weapons just as ineffective and slow and hot . I want to be able to use my cockpit of my mech as a bbq and a sweat lodge at the same time . I have a oscillating fan that should keep my mech just shy of exploding.

Come on are you all just a little bit curious how bad this is going to get I am.


PGI should have done the following:

1) Increase global cooldown of all weapons by 25%, plus extra for the Gauss to compensate for the removal of its chargup.

2) Double armor values

3) Add in Reactive and Reflective armor

4) Give us hotter maps to force more varied Mechs instead of pandering to the meta nuts with all these cold ones

5) Design better game modes that encourage mixed loadouts instead of nerfing the bejeebers out of everything

6) Improve the training tutorial so that it actually teaches pilots how to fight instead of just how to stomp around and pull triggers

Those six things would have done so much to fix this game. Instead, PGI chose what is perhaps the most complicated and riskiest fix. *facepalm*

#18 davoodoo

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 03:06 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 25 August 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

3) Add in Reactive and Reflective armor

Reactive
"The armor was developed by the Draconis Combine in 3063"
"The armor would be later enter more expansive production by 3081"

Reflective
"The armor's status as Experimental item ended at the close of the Jihad era. It would enter regular production and became a standard Inner Sphere Technology in 3080."

Well then ill ask for
http://www.sarna.net...ga_(BattleMech)
3076 also would like to note it was heat neutral with such weaponry and only 65 dmg alpha, very small for 150 tonner, less than heavy custom mech refit can achieve tbh but what do you expect from weaponry which generates only 7 heat yet got 20 heat worth of dhs and all of its weaponry is above medlas range.
and
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rotary_AC/5
3062

And i dont give a ****, ultimate dakka incoming.

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 03:14 PM.


#19 Tiantara

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 03:15 PM

- 32 km/h... I love that gunned mech. I can stay on high-ground and do snipe until some small mech make a small hole in my back to my reactor. But still it's cool. Maybe we have FW mission to protect such mech to destination place and if it got more than 7%% damage - team fail mission. And it must be piloted one from team... yeah! Randomly! Or no.. better... instead of Long Tom base guarded by that's mech! And from us need its protection! Than gens, than omega... and with recapture - only 1 that mech and omega. Ant it can move.. and shoot... and... wow...

#20 davoodoo

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 03:20 PM

Hey it might be slow but 5 racs will do its own, did you know they can fire 6 times per cycle for 30 dmg total at 450m, 150 dmg dakka for merely 30 heat.

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 03:23 PM.






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