112 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 04:19 PM, said:

Too much PPFLD with insane range flying around, honestly.

This is actually why I typically butt heads with you over projectile velocity. It's not a good thing that it is easy to quickly calculate deflection for your PPFLD on a target at 1,000 m out with weapons that will be prolific because certain 'Mechs allow them to be. It's not impressive, and never will be, to surprise somebody with a sudden component destruction from a distance that they can neither reasonably expect to get hit from nor retaliate at with the vast majority of the weapons in the game. The NGT and KDK are horrible for the game, turning every 'Mech into so much tissue paper. This is precisely why PGI is investigating a cap to alphas, and why I think there needs to be some sort of dynamic cool-down on energy-intensive weapons (which includes Gauss) that scales depending on how big the wad you just fired was.

I think that's an issue with the raw damage rather than just the projectile velocity by itself. Velocity is just about accuracy.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 04:19 PM, said:

Too much PPFLD with insane range flying around, honestly.

It's not that necessarily, because the ability to do this has been around for a long time because the Whale has been able to do it since the rebalance as well, it is just that perfect storm mechs like the Kodiak exist both with good mounts, great speed, and perfect hardpoints that allow it abuse all of that. Even with the higher velocity from a TComp, the Whale with 2 ERPPC/2 Gauss wasn't enough to stop the Mauler (which if it could mount a Clan XL with its weapons load, it would be just as potent).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 September 2016 - 04:31 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 29 September 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

I think that's an issue with the raw damage rather than just the projectile velocity by itself. Velocity is just about accuracy.

But you have no way of preventing me from bundling that accuracy into high damage clusters, so really it's both. The offset to PPFLD is that it is supposed to be harder to hit the target with. If lasers had longer burns, you could realistically slow down projectiles to below the hyper- or near-hyper-velocities they currently sit at, and the absolute limits on player skill would become a larger factor. Right now, it's child's play to pop up and just blast a target with PPC+Gauss, and now we have 'Mechs that can do it with no real risks taken to bring such a specialized payload.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 September 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

It's not that necessarily, because the ability to do this has been around for a long time because the Whale has been able to do it since the rebalance as well, it is just that perfect storm mechs like the Kodiak exist both with good mounts, great speed, and perfect hardpoints that allow it abuse all of that. Even with the higher velocity from a TComp, the Whale with 2 ERPPC/2 Gauss wasn't enough to stop the Mauler (which if it could mount a Clan XL with its weapons load, it would be just as potent).

I said as much about the Mauler earlier, though I will confess that I don't really find it useful to do a "what if" comparison across the tech line because the fact that it doesn't have those features is precisely what keeps it balanced.

Also, you say the ability to deliver them has been around, but has it really? I consider the 'Mech part of the system, and if the only previous options were stuffed so full of drawbacks that made delivering these types of PPFLD volleys non-viable, then I don't think it is accurate to say that the ability to do so has been present until now. It's been two years since this type of play has really been viable, with a few exceptions like JagerXII being good enough to keep the torch burning in the interim, and now it's back and just as broken as before. Worse, actually, because these versions are not vulnerable in three places and they are delivering larger volleys with better heat management and faster ground speeds for the level of armor carried.

[Antonius Zalman]

Holy cow! This certainly turned into a discussion, didnt expect that much talk over it xD.

Just to resolve my distaste for the current state of the cUAC, i been using the LBX instead.

[Revis Volek]

JackalBeast, on 24 September 2016 - 05:38 AM, said:

No need to record, you really can have a C-UAC jam on the first shot, just like you can have multiple C-UACs jam simultaneously, like 3 or more at the same time. Praise be RNGesus but that is pretty damn fishy.

I hardly get one jam on a mech (unless it has one cannon) More often then not its 2 or more. And on my triple UAC5 jager all 3 jam together and go down at the same a lot. More often then i ever remember.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 07:39 PM, said:

But you have no way of preventing me from bundling that accuracy into high damage clusters, so really it's both.

Then it becomes a matter of whether to balance weapons based on them being boated or based on them being used in small numbers (or even just a single one for some cases). The former means that you the gun is only viable when spammed and the latter means that spamming them would be massively stronger. It's kind of a lose-lose situation.

I guess this is where PGI's idea of setting a damage cap might come into play, except that it doesn't really succeed at much.

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 07:39 PM, said:

The offset to PPFLD is that it is supposed to be harder to hit the target with. If lasers had longer burns, you could realistically slow down projectiles to below the hyper- or near-hyper-velocities they currently sit at, and the absolute limits on player skill would become a larger factor. Right now, it's child's play to pop up and just blast a target with PPC+Gauss, and now we have 'Mechs that can do it with no real risks taken to bring such a specialized payload.

PPFLD is actually harder to hit a target with than lasers in most cases, unless you've got a 2000 m/s gun or you're fairly close to the red guy. That's not necessary about PPFLD always being "hard" so much as lasers being relatively easy. The skill floor is almost lower for hitscan weapons, especially as range increases. We also see this in other games like Overwatch.

With that being aside, raw skill also isn't that great of a way to balance the game because it becomes less and less of a factor as player skill tiers increase. Once you get to the top level, requiring high skill to use is no longer a weakness because every player there is already of high enough skillz. At that point, the highest skill guns are simply the strongest guns period.


Longer burns really aren't needed, and would make lasers feel wimpy and flaccid to use. I also imagine that there would be more unfriendly fire in the process. I remember the "lightsaber" version of the Clan ERLL back in the day...

Slower projectiles also aren't needed. We already got a taste of that when PPCs were 850 m/s. It sucked, especially considering that it's supposed to be a long-range weapon to begin with. This cartoon clip perfectly expresses how slow projectiles feel to use:




It's a "quality of life" issue for both weapon types.

Edited by FupDup, 29 September 2016 - 08:12 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 07:39 PM, said:

The offset to PPFLD is that it is supposed to be harder to hit the target with. If lasers had longer burns, you could realistically slow down projectiles to below the hyper- or near-hyper-velocities they currently sit at

I just want to point out, these are not anywhere near hyper-velocity weapons, MW4 had velocities twice and in some cases 3x as fast. Granted that game also lacked HSR which has helped reduce the need for that high of velocity by a lot. The velocity doesn't change much though because the reason it is strong is because when laser mechs poke, they generally tend to slow down and hit reverse, in this amount of time you are able to respond. The big difference between the Kodiak and the Whale however is both the accel/decel and weapon placement that allow the Kodiak to be able to place that firepower without being stuck in a similar situation as the Whale, basically if the Kodiak didn't get insane agility and was stuck with agility like the Whale, things might be very different. To me this only highlights the problem with attaching agility to speed and only speed.

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 07:39 PM, said:

Worse, actually, because these versions are not vulnerable in three places and they are delivering larger volleys with better heat management and faster ground speeds for the level of armor carried.

This to me also says something about the level of control the devs have over trying to balance these things, while on lighter chassis' the number of hardpoints tends to translate to firepower, heavies and assaults are not necessarily that way. Which indicates to me that the devs have a problem with trying to limit mechs like the Kodiak 3 in the firepower department like say something like sized hardpoints could at least help control that. Really though it doesn't have to be sized hardpoints, they just need a way to control usable firepower in a more direct and arbitrary manor to make sure mechs that have higher hardpoints, jump jets, or good speed are more disadvantaged in firepower and/or other areas. With stock configs that isn't always possible, but I believe there are options that could be explored to better reign in these problem mechs without the use of power draw or quirks.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 September 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

I just want to point out, these are not anywhere near hyper-velocity weapons, MW4 had velocities twice and in some cases 3x as fast. Granted that game also lacked HSR which has helped reduce the need for that high of velocity by a lot. The velocity doesn't change much though because the reason it is strong is because when laser mechs poke, they generally tend to slow down and hit reverse, in this amount of time you are able to respond. The big difference between the Kodiak and the Whale however is both the accel/decel and weapon placement that allow the Kodiak to be able to place that firepower without being stuck in a similar situation as the Whale, basically if the Kodiak didn't get insane agility and was stuck with agility like the Whale, things might be very different. To me this only highlights the problem with attaching agility to speed and only speed.

When I say "hyper-velocity", I'm using the US Army definition for artillery, which is any projectile travelling in excess of 1,066 m/s. Most of the projectile weapons in MWO are faster than that; only the 10- and 20-class are slower. It's not the same thing as hypersonic, which applies only to the AC/2 and Gauss.

Basically, we already have HVACs already in the game without the commensurate weight penalty.

For fighting against PPFLD using non-PPFLD, it's a damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don't affair. I can either expose and fire while hitting reverse or expose and fire while pushing on. In the former, I slow down for a second and you get an easy shot. In the latter I am moving in a predictable fashion and you, again, get an easy shot. Most 'Mechs are not fast or agile enough for any other alternative to those outcomes, which is why the PPFLD is so extremely difficult to combat with anything other than brawl, assuming you somehow miraculously survived to brawl ranges, or more PPFLD. That it invalidates such a huge section of the armory is a major issue. We could buff laser burns in response, but then we have de facto PPFLD and it's no different in play mode than true PPLFD, and missiles remain useless.

And I'm not so sure things would be all that different. Even had the Kodiak never come out and Mauler remained dominant, we would have shifted to a pop-tart response because cagey burst damage is the only way to break the power-position play that had become the go-to strategy. The NTG and/or TBR would then be the ones dictating the game instead of the KDK, which sets up the environment for even this proposed nerfed KDK to thrive should we chose to introduce it at this point.

Quote

This to me also says something about the level of control the devs have over trying to balance these things, while on lighter chassis' the number of hardpoints tends to translate to firepower, heavies and assaults are not necessarily that way. Which indicates to me that the devs have a problem with trying to limit mechs like the Kodiak 3 in the firepower department like say something like sized hardpoints could at least help control that. Really though it doesn't have to be sized hardpoints, they just need a way to control usable firepower in a more direct and arbitrary manor to make sure mechs that have higher hardpoints, jump jets, or good speed are more disadvantaged in firepower and/or other areas. With stock configs that isn't always possible, but I believe there are options that could be explored to better reign in these problem mechs without the use of power draw or quirks.

Tying energy-consuming weapons (lasers, PPCs, Gauss) together in an energy pool that impacts cool-down would work.That is ultimately what they are trying to do on the PTS, but the mistake PGI is making is that the penalty is being applied on firing rather than on recharge and that the penalty is a heat-spike rather than a direct increase to the cool-down timer. If you make the changes suggested, 'Mechs that rely entirely on high alphas to work can still play ball and you can tweak the energy requirements on each weapon such that it properly penalizes the big PPFLD guns to curb the utility of firing all of them at once without making those weapons useless on non-abusive platforms.

FupDup, on 29 September 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

Then it becomes a matter of whether to balance weapons based on them being boated or based on them being used in small numbers (or even just a single one for some cases). The former means that you have to spam them to make them work and the latter means that spamming them would be massively stronger. It's kind of a lose-lose situation.

I guess this is where PGI's idea of setting a damage cap might come into play, except that it doesn't really succeed at much.

See section above on energy pools being tied to cool-down.

Quote

PPFLD is actually harder to hit a target with than lasers in most cases, unless you've got a 2000 m/s gun or you're fairly close to the red guy. That's not necessary about PPFLD always being "hard" so much as lasers being relatively easy. The skill floor is almost lower for hitscan weapons, especially as range increases. We also see this in other games like Overwatch.

It's not, though, not for any player who is slightly above average unless I'm seriously overestimating what "average" in this game is (and I might be...which is honestly mortifying for the implications it has to whom balance will have to please).

Quote

Longer burns really aren't needed, and would make lasers feel wimpy and flaccid to use. I also imagine that there would be more unfriendly fire in the process. I remember the "lightsaber" version of the Clan ERLL back in the day...

Feels wimpy...but then so could everything else with longer cool-downs, etc. It's all relative.

And I think they are needed. It is frankly ridiculous that I can dump 52 points into a single spot in 0.67 seconds, faster than any of you people can twist because the 'Mech will not physically allow it and you are not always going to be ready to receive the shot. Hell, even the 0.9 seconds it takes a Medium Laser to burn is not successfully twisted away by the vast majority of players in a team environment, including by such esteemed names as Proton. Most of the spread comes from the user's end, not the efforts of the target to mitigate.

It's even more ridiculous that I can now deliver that same damage instantly with the PPC+Gauss on the KDK, or damn close to it with the NTG, with minimal effort at ranges up to 600 meters, and only slightly more at 800+.

Quote

Slower projectiles also aren't needed. We already got a taste of that when PPCs were 850 m/s. It sucked, especially considering that it's supposed to be a long-range weapon to begin with. This cartoon clip perfectly expresses how slow projectiles feel to use:

I don't use the term "twitch" lightly, but increasing the velocity on projectiles from where we currently are pushes the game too far into the "twitch" type of play. I don't come to MWO so I can tip-toe my 75,000 kg walking tank over eggshells for fear that one shot from a distance that can't be anticipated or replied to, and which is easy enough to use that Joe Casual T3 can be effective with it after five minutes of acclimation, will knock me out of the fight. It is the epitome of boring. If I wanted that, I really would go back to Hawken because the nerfs they've made to HP and buffs they've given to weapons through the removal of recoil have already created that type of play. In two words: it sucks.

I don't know that current velocities need to be slowed down, but being increased is something that should not even be remotely considered with the sole exception of 20-class auto-cannons, and even then only to 850 or so.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

We could buff laser burns in response, but then we have de facto PPFLD and it's no different in play mode than true PPLFD, and missiles remain useless.

You don't need to because the laser duration nerfs aren't what killed laser vomit, the range and heat nerfs are what killed it, not to mention continued nerfs of other things on the popular laser vomit platforms (BK I'm looking at you).

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

Mauler remained dominant, we would have shifted to a pop-tart response because cagey burst damage is the only way to break the power-position play that had become the go-to strategy.

I'm not so sure on this, mind you poptarts would've been good, but the Mauler trades differently from a Kodiak so lasers would've been able to get better shots without getting touched as severely, not to mention the Mauler had the problem of being slow unlike the Kodiak which made it even more different from the Kodiak.

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

The NTG and/or TBR would then be the ones dictating the game instead of the KDK, which sets up the environment for even this proposed nerfed KDK to thrive should we chose to introduce it at this point.

Yeah, I don't know about that, just like the Whale before it, if you take away the centerpiece of a meta, the entire environment shifts. The Gyr is nice but I don't know it would've stopped BK/Dakka pushes like we saw in MRBC.

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

Tying energy-consuming weapons (lasers, PPCs, Gauss) together in an energy pool that impacts cool-down would work.That is ultimately what they are trying to do on the PTS, but the mistake PGI is making is that the penalty is being applied on firing rather than on recharge and that the penalty is a heat-spike rather than a direct increase to the cool-down timer.

No, because both are still bad because they still don't touch the problem that certain mechs need that sort of firepower to overcome weaknesses (BK, Whale, etc). I mean I guess you could make it so not everything has the same energy pool, but I prefer heat spikes and actually fixing the no heat nature of Gauss over increasing cooldowns, it plays better because it allows me to make a risky shot (firing and shutting down or just being gunned down because it takes 10 seconds for it to recharge).

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 September 2016 - 06:57 AM, said:

You don't need to because the laser duration nerfs aren't what killed laser vomit, the range and heat nerfs are what killed it, not to mention continued nerfs of other things on the popular laser vomit platforms (BK I'm looking at you).

In context of the KDK and WHM presence, vomit was already dead even before the nerfs. In the time it took the BK to expose and fire, the WHM delivered the same damage from better mounts in more efficient packets at greater distances without any need to recover. It had and still has very good structure buffs. To add insult to injury, it is also very good at laser vomit in its own right.

It was fairly black and white once everybody got familiar with the WHM.

Quote

I'm not so sure on this, mind you poptarts would've been good, but the Mauler trades differently from a Kodiak so lasers would've been able to get better shots without getting touched as severely, not to mention the Mauler had the problem of being slow unlike the Kodiak which made it even more different from the Kodiak.

I should think that is why poptarting is even more effective, though. It is necessary against the KDK, but utterly dominating over a MAL. The MAL has to stay exposed because it is slow and cumbersome, which makes cagey bursters all the more effective at countering. To boot, being a cagey burster also makes it harder for the MAL's support to do their job, so the solution snowballs.

Mind you, all of this is contingent upon having a fantastic poptart, which you could argue we didn't have until the NTG.

Quote

Yeah, I don't know about that, just like the Whale before it, if you take away the centerpiece of a meta, the entire environment shifts. The Gyr is nice but I don't know it would've stopped BK/Dakka pushes like we saw in MRBC.

The NTG would take the place of the KDK and it would be the Assaults supporting the Heavies rather than the other way around. The way matches play right now, you have the Heavies essentially running squirrel so the KDKs can poke out and deliver a massive FLD volley without getting focused down, with Lights attempting to flush them into the open and mediums filling the holes.

The NTG is comfortable running a 40 volley and can mission-kill anything in the game short of an AS7-S within three shots; it is already a pocket KDK. WHM and BK have open and damaged XL STs in two, leaving the HBK-IIC and ACH to finish the job with relatively little difficulty. The amount of exposure required for the NTG to do this is a fraction of that needed by the BK or WHM and compensates for the damage deficit from the KDK by virtue of being able to peak a greater number of times before running out of armor.

Quote

No, because both are still bad because they still don't touch the problem that certain mechs need that sort of firepower to overcome weaknesses (BK, Whale, etc). I mean I guess you could make it so not everything has the same energy pool, but I prefer heat spikes and actually fixing the no heat nature of Gauss over increasing cooldowns, it plays better because it allows me to make a risky shot (firing and shutting down or just being gunned down because it takes 10 seconds for it to recharge).

Shutting down is no different than being unable to shoot; worse, actually, because you can't move, either. With the other way, you can at least stagger your weapons under pressure to maximize DPS.

The cool-down system isn't that simple, really. It doesn't apply a flat increase to the total weapon bundle, it is proportional. A medium laser needs less energy than a Large, and so even though the energy pool is divided evenly across all weapons on cool-down, the MedLas will finish recharging first between the two, which will then free up energy to speed up the recharge on the Large.

Whether it is through this phenomenon or because you brought weapons that don't draw from the pool at all, you are not necessarily left defenseless; you just can't fire anything huge and far-reaching with great frequency. Combine with less heat on lasers and lower RoF on AC/SRM as necessary.

Granted, you can achieve similar results purely using the heat mechanic, but my way also helps 'Mechs with limited hardpoints organically, rather than through artificial quirks., and provides a concrete and non-trivial incentive to fire smaller weapon groups.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 September 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

In context of the KDK and WHM presence, vomit was already dead even before the nerfs. In the time it took the BK to expose and fire, the WHM delivered the same damage from better mounts in more efficient packets at greater distances without any need to recover.

The point was, laser vomit doesn't necessarily need duration to be changed to be effective, heat and cooldown can also be used to keep them in line.

Yeonne Greene, on 30 September 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

I should think that is why poptarting is even more effective, though.

Not quite, because it is only stronger against the Pokebear, not necessarily the Dakkabear. The Mauler wasn't just used as area denial, it was also a solid push support mech.

Yeonne Greene, on 30 September 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

Mind you, all of this is contingent upon having a fantastic poptart, which you could argue we didn't have until the NTG.

Honestly the HBK-IIC-A is still better because it also has mobility, which the Timby also has and is only one JJ shy of the NTG (but does have lower mounts, so there is give and take on that one).

Yeonne Greene, on 30 September 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

The NTG would take the place of the KDK

The NTG isn't currently the best heavy, and without the firepower to support it, it still won't be. The NTG is a really good mech, but it is no Kodiak replacement because of the disparity in armor.

Yeonne Greene, on 30 September 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

Shutting down is no different than being unable to shoot

I don't think you got the scenario, in one you are heat capped but able to actually shoot an alpha and risk the penalties of a shutdown, in the other you are unable to even take that risk because of longer cooldowns.

Yeonne Greene, on 30 September 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

The cool-down system isn't that simple, really. It doesn't apply a flat increase to the total weapon bundle, it is proportional. A medium laser needs less energy than a Large, and so even though the energy pool is divided evenly across all weapons on cool-down, the MedLas will finish recharging first between the two, which will then free up energy to speed up the recharge on the Large.

If it isn't simple, then it doesn't need to be in the game for the same reason we are trying to get rid of ghost heat. We just need forethought and a better way to control (without adding gameplay mechanics) the applicable firepower for mechs based on their other qualities such as engine cap, mounts, and equipment. Your way would still have to find some way to keep those in check, which means you would have to have some sort of quirks to ensure that those that should be given more firepower can actually use that firepower.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 September 2016 - 09:41 AM.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

Tying energy-consuming weapons (lasers, PPCs, Gauss) together in an energy pool that impacts cool-down would work.That is ultimately what they are trying to do on the PTS, but the mistake PGI is making is that the penalty is being applied on firing rather than on recharge and that the penalty is a heat-spike rather than a direct increase to the cool-down timer. If you make the changes suggested, 'Mechs that rely entirely on high alphas to work can still play ball and you can tweak the energy requirements on each weapon such that it properly penalizes the big PPFLD guns to curb the utility of firing all of them at once without making those weapons useless on non-abusive platforms.

See section above on energy pools being tied to cool-down.

That could potentially work for those three weapon types listed above, but that still leaves Autocannons and missiles in limbo.

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

It's not, though, not for any player who is slightly above average unless I'm seriously overestimating what "average" in this game is (and I might be...which is honestly mortifying for the implications it has to whom balance will have to please).

When talking about skill floor I mostly mean an example of taking a totally new greenhorn and seeing which weapons that he can use effectively with the least practice. I think that hitscan does require less practice in the majority of cases, outside of things like getting headshots on a small target. I think that a standard new player would probably miss a lot of their projectile weapon shots.

As a baddie myself I tend to hit a lot more often with lazors than boolets.

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

Feels wimpy...but then so could everything else with longer cool-downs, etc. It's all relative.

It's not just about wimpy relative to other guns, it's also about wimpy relative to the durability we have. Even if you nerfed every gun by the exact same amount, they would all feel "wimpier" if mech armor/durability was left untouched.

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

And I think they are needed. It is frankly ridiculous that I can dump 52 points into a single spot in 0.67 seconds, faster than any of you people can twist because the 'Mech will not physically allow it and you are not always going to be ready to receive the shot. Hell, even the 0.9 seconds it takes a Medium Laser to burn is not successfully twisted away by the vast majority of players in a team environment, including by such esteemed names as Proton. Most of the spread comes from the user's end, not the efforts of the target to mitigate.

Your modified energy draw idea thingy above can help with that, or else we run into the aforementioned problem of balancing weapons based on spam or based on low numbers (in this case you're nerfing beam durations based on spam builds).

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

It's even more ridiculous that I can now deliver that same damage instantly with the PPC+Gauss on the KDK, or damn close to it with the NTG, with minimal effort at ranges up to 600 meters, and only slightly more at 800+.

The nastiest builds on those two mechs don't use lasers, though, so the beam duration nerfs don't really apply to them.

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

I don't use the term "twitch" lightly, but increasing the velocity on projectiles from where we currently are pushes the game too far into the "twitch" type of play. I don't come to MWO so I can tip-toe my 75,000 kg walking tank over eggshells for fear that one shot from a distance that can't be anticipated or replied to, and which is easy enough to use that Joe Casual T3 can be effective with it after five minutes of acclimation, will knock me out of the fight. It is the epitome of boring. If I wanted that, I really would go back to Hawken because the nerfs they've made to HP and buffs they've given to weapons through the removal of recoil have already created that type of play. In two words: it sucks.

The goal of not being instagibbed upon contact with the enemy doesn't have to be achieved by making all projectiles slow and making lasers into lightsabers.

Yeonne Greene, on 29 September 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

I don't know that current velocities need to be slowed down, but being increased is something that should not even be remotely considered with the sole exception of 20-class auto-cannons, and even then only to 850 or so.

Not even the IS AC/10? 950 feels pretty slow for a supposed "midrange" gun.

I would also like to remind everyone that the Clan LB 2-X still has a velocity of only 1330, aka the same as the LB 5-X.

Edited by FupDup, 30 September 2016 - 10:04 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

Honestly they would be fine if the IS ACs were buffed in some way like velocity. The Clan AC's already suffer in the DPS department (and I don't mind them suffering more or getting their heat increased) thanks to them getting preemptively nerfed since their introduction.

I agree with Viktor that C-ACs being single shot would give them a unique place in the Clan arsenal, more unique than simply buffing their velocity would simply because they are still a burst weapon. Maybe if C-UACs had longer burst durations that way they could be the pulse to the C-UACs standard lasers or something that could be interesting, but even then they are competing for the same role just like standard and pulse do.

If we feel like the PPFLD version of C-ACs can never be balanced or should be a gaping hole in the Clan arsenal then the weapon itself shouldn't exist.

See I feel that that balance has tipped the other direction and that IS weapons are generally superior now, especially when combined with the excessive quirks the IS mechs get. I mean my Crab's are pushing near the same ranges as I can achieve with Clan weapons, plus the lasers I am using are cooler, have shorter durations and because of that faster firing which makes up for their lower damage.

In the case of AC's IS AC's have almost always been superior due to being pin point damage weapons. You fire an IS AC/10, you get 10 points of damage right where you wanted it unlike with Clan ultra's where your often spreading damage everywhere kind of like you would if you were trying to fire a laser. Also unlike Clan UAC's you don't have to sit there out in the open waiting for your burst to finish before you fade back into cover. With IS ACs, you just peek out and boom, then immediate go back to hiding.

Honestly I feel that a heck of alot of Clanner's would ditch those UACs you hate, in favor of solid slug designs, many without even a second thought.