48 replies to this topic

[invernomuto]

Kaptain, on 06 October 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

Do you not own them? Are you not familiar with Smurfy? Or do you just post things without thinking/evidence? Genuinely curious how such a demonstrably false claim is made.

I agree with you that you can do different build with IM respect to 4X and probabily the terms "obsolete" for the IM was a bit strong.
My point is that PGI needs to sell mechs. Ilya is one Cataphract variants that can go dakka (and still with good results, even if there are better mech, like the BW, for the role), the other is the 4X. Right now IM is clearly the better option between the two and PGI has zero incentives to improve the 4X variant.

Edited by invernomuto, 07 October 2016 - 06:45 AM.

[Kuaron]

Erm... not having p2w in the game is a quite important goal, if we are speaking about the balance between hero and regular variants.

[Davegt27]

I bought one used it for one day and sold it

after the big C-bill nerf its just not worth the trouble screwing around with such a slow Mech

2 AC2's and 2 AC5's is my fall back configuration that I use on my Jagers
AC2's and AC5's pair up well, I even run that on one of my Blackjacks

[Nightbird]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b18b3c33d2d82a6

Basic then sell

[DoctorDetroit]

Ctf 4x needs big AC quirks. Then it will be unique and sort of viable.

Edited by DoctorDetroit, 08 October 2016 - 12:53 PM.

[Penrose Willoughby]

I run my ctf with this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7b52a5d43ffa061

2ac2, 2ac5, 2mpl.

Terrible alpha, can't hill hump, even corner peeking is tough unless it's a building or something because you'll hit the edges of hills. But if you can get in the open with someone and just let loose it kills stuff pretty good. I tend to get around 500 damage with this pretty reliably, but I am in tier 4...

Some AC quirks would be very welcome on this mech. 20% Better velocity would make it feel a lot more fun to play, I think.

[Corrado]

i did love 4xAC5 cataphract. but that was in the old days, where TTK was WAY lower and there werent BlackWidows, Maulers, KCrabs.

now it's obsolete.

[Kuaron]

After the loyalty CTF I am thinking about what other two to get for mastering it.
Before I was thinking about getting the CTF-4X and playing the 2UAC5+2AC5 build. But this thread is, somehow, a tiny bit discouraging.
Are the other ones significantly better?
I know the 3D is regarded a good b/c of JJ, but I don't particularly like JJ.

[Corrado]

Kuaron, on 25 October 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

After the loyalty CTF I am thinking about what other two to get for mastering it.
Before I was thinking about getting the CTF-4X and playing the 2UAC5+2AC5 build. But this thread is, somehow, a tiny bit discouraging.
Are the other ones significantly better?
I know the 3D is regarded a good b/c of JJ, but I don't particularly like JJ.

i like the 0XP as AC20+4MPL brawler. the 4X isn't THAT bad, but there is surely better for 4 AC5

[Zordicron]

Kuaron, on 25 October 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

After the loyalty CTF I am thinking about what other two to get for mastering it.
Before I was thinking about getting the CTF-4X and playing the 2UAC5+2AC5 build. But this thread is, somehow, a tiny bit discouraging.
Are the other ones significantly better?
I know the 3D is regarded a good b/c of JJ, but I don't particularly like JJ.

4x was my fist mech, back in beta. I can tell you without any hesitation it is on the bottom tier with the rest of the ancient "goofy" mechs, like 5V Spiders etc.

Back then, a STD.300 was the normal choice for an Atlas, so they went like 50kph. We are talking about a time when people would run a std 200 on a Catapult K2 so they could fit 2x AC20's. Times were different.

Back in the day, an XL engine Cataphract was suicide. Nowdays, I dunno, everything dies so fast it prolly doesn;t matter as much. Basic stuff on the 4X- ignore missle slot. If you want the laser slots to be used, a single LPL, or a pair of light ML is best. The LPL is part of the main guns then, don;t expect a AC boat with one, more like twin AC10. two ML means they are backup to your dakka guns.

I preffered quad AC5 a bit over a year ago. twin 5's and 2's is another good one. Twin 10's IMO had weird convergence issues, never did like them, but some say it's the best loadout. Quad 2's is ok, I ran that with a "machine gun" macro for a bit and played Assault babysitter, mostly just ride along with them and when they get into it, lay down that pepper spray to disorient the enemy and add dmg.


Really if you are after two variants to buy, i wouldn't get a 4X. I would pick up a 1X, put a HUGE XL on it with a laser boat(I like LPL+ML) which will make it agile and pretty quick for it's tonnage/firepower. 0XP has ECM, but firepower wise is sorta inferior. Illya is a classic, still decent mech, triple LBX is fun if nothing else. I ran an AC20 loadout on my 2X, but I would get an Illya and 1X first IMO. 1X and 2X if the hero is off the table. if nothing else, any of the other phracts besides the 4X and 0XP can run twin heavy laser or PPC in the shoulders, and that is a very old, tried and true loadout style for any of them, JJ or not.

[Kmieciu]

Zordicron, on 27 October 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

4x was my fist mech, back in beta. I can tell you without any hesitation it is on the bottom tier with the rest of the ancient "goofy" mechs, like 5V Spiders etc.

There is a huge difference between a Spider with 2 MPL or 1 LPL and a mech that can carry 2xUAC5 and 2xAC5. That's enough firepower to outright kill enemies before they can react, while the Spider has to dance around an enemy for minutes to take them down.

CTF-4X is rather slow (63,4 kph), but quite responsive (+45% torso turn rate(yaw) +40 turn speed). I enjoy piloting it more than I enjoy the Dakka-Direwolf. You make 1 mistake in a Dire, and you're done. You overextend, you die. Get caught by light mech - you die.

I can't even count the number of Arctic Cheetahs I dispatched using CTF-4X. With guns in the arms and that wicked turn quirks no light can out-turn you. And IS (U)AC5 with velocity quirk is probably THE best weapon against light mechs. You might miss with an AC20 or SRMs, lasers may nor register damage, but those (U)AC5 hit hard and fast. Even if you panic and start firing like a madman, you won't overheat...

Did I mention it has 690 meters of effective range?

Edited by Kmieciu, 28 October 2016 - 01:40 AM.

[Kaptain]

Kuaron, on 25 October 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

After the loyalty CTF I am thinking about what other two to get for mastering it.
Before I was thinking about getting the CTF-4X and playing the 2UAC5+2AC5 build. But this thread is, somehow, a tiny bit discouraging.
Are the other ones significantly better?
I know the 3D is regarded a good b/c of JJ, but I don't particularly like JJ.

Get the ZERO for its ECM and the ED for its dual ballistic. I own all of them but the missile and hero and that's what I would pick if I had to do it over again.

[TercieI]

Kmieciu, on 07 October 2016 - 12:00 AM, said:

TLDR:

CTF-4X vs Black Widow (XL255 2xUAC5 2xAC5 build)

CTF-4X:
+marginally better structure quirks (it's literally 9 structure points spread over 4 sections)
+better mobility quirks (debatable and they're not a big deal on either mech)
+better hitboxes
+better DPS
+better ballistic speed and range


Black Widow:
+ arm armor can be shaved for 1 additional tonne of ammo (or, more importantly, a bigger engine)
+ able to hill hump
+ c-bill boost (not relevant)
+better hitboxes
+immensely superior mounts

Your list has some issues, IMO.

Edited by TercieI, 28 October 2016 - 08:53 AM.

[habu86]

Kuaron, on 25 October 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

After the loyalty CTF I am thinking about what other two to get for mastering it.
Before I was thinking about getting the CTF-4X and playing the 2UAC5+2AC5 build. But this thread is, somehow, a tiny bit discouraging.
Are the other ones significantly better?
I know the 3D is regarded a good b/c of JJ, but I don't particularly like JJ.

I mean look, depending on what tier you're in and which version you're talking about, they'll range from "not-quite-hard-mode" to "perfectly serviceable". The reality is that CTFs in general have certain shortcomings relative to other IS 70 tonners out there, no matter their intended role.

Laser vomit? WHM and GHR do it better due to more and better-located hardpoints
Ballistics? WHM generally does it better due to better-located hardpoints
Missile boat (either SRM or LRM)? WHM and ARC do it better due to more and better-located hardpoints
Gauss/ERPPC? WHM can run that build too, but can fit an XL AND have all weapons in the STs (questionable though placing a GR in an IS XL side torso might be)

So what can the CTF do that the others IS 70 tonners can't? Only three things:
1. Big ballistics + ECM - the only other IS ECM heavy is the paywalled Tempest and that's strictly laser+missiles, never mind the even worse hitboxes
2. 3xUAC5+XL engine in the Illya, though an argument could be made that the JM-DD is a superior option for that
3. Dual ballistics (usually UAC5) or Gauss/ERPPC + JJs. A general argument could be made against running Gauss/ERPPC on the IS tech base, but 2x UAC5 + JJ on the 3D can actually be fair amount of fun, and you can even get more flavor from having the option of running STD for a deadside or XL for more speed.

Still, the added utility you gain from any of the above stuff is fairly questionable when placed against the CTFs drawbacks relative to its peers.

Don't get me wrong they can still be just plain fun to drive, especially if you're looking for a challenge. I still take my -4X out every now and then. Just realize that your individual ability to swing a match will take a hit even under ideal circumstances.

Edited by habu86, 28 October 2016 - 09:59 AM.

[BodakOfSseth]

Kuaron, on 25 October 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

After the loyalty CTF I am thinking about what other two to get for mastering it.
Before I was thinking about getting the CTF-4X and playing the 2UAC5+2AC5 build. But this thread is, somehow, a tiny bit discouraging.
Are the other ones significantly better?
I know the 3D is regarded a good b/c of JJ, but I don't particularly like JJ.

I basically did the same thing you are doing now, just backwards. I got two other CTFs before the (L) and mastered them first.

I run an 0XP with AC20 and 4xMedLas, and it's probably my most successful mech (not that I have many mechs, and I'm still a newb). The match performance can be up and down (sometimes I do fantastically, sometimes not so great) The ECM helps me get close and surprise folks with the AC20.

I also run a 3D with 2xUAC5 and 4xMedLas. They're pretty quick for a heavy, and the JJ on the 3D helps greatly with the mobility. The 3D has a far more steady performance for me.

Both are really good to not be the tip of the spear, despite the mobility. I find they are great to help secure a flank or to step on lights and mediums that threaten the assaults, or to provide fire support for the assaults.
Both are also good for side peeking, because the ballistics are all on the same side, and low slung. JJ are not for poptarting here.

[Kuaron]

Ah, maybe it was a mistake to try moving the discussion to the thread with the more cataphract-general topic name. ^^
I'll quote the only answer from there then:

Kmieciu, on 28 October 2016 - 01:14 AM, said:

4X is certainly not bad. 2xUAC5 2xAC5 can out-DPS any other heavy mech in the game. (yes, Black Widow included).
It's even got more DPS than 90-ton Cyclops-Sleipnir (4xUAC5) and a little bit less than 5xAC5 Mauler.

It cannot hill-hump but in a straight-up fight it wrecks face. And thanks to 690 meter range it can stand in the second row and support the brawlers with a deadly stream of AC rounds.

Did I mention it never* overheats?

So what you all are saying is that all cataphracts are more or less viable and the 4X not remarkably worse?

[BodakOfSseth]

Kuaron, on 28 October 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

So what you all are saying is that all cataphracts are more or less viable and the 4X not remarkably worse?

No one answered you, so I guess I will.
People who aren't in the super-leet ultra competitive mindset seem to agree on that. Everything works at some level. Sure, there are some sub-optimal choices (and the 4X seems among them), and there are some choices that are generally better. That said, I think in games like this, you'll do fine if you're
A. willing to take your lumps and laugh about it later
B. not focused on getting to top-level play

I know it sounds a little crazy, but you might consider
4x AC2 and 2MLas. Comes with max engine. Stay in the back, wait for pushes and then just lean on the trigger (525 shots on 4x AC2s mean 94.5 seconds of continuous fire, not considering heat if I'm doing the math right)
Also, the 2xAC2, 2xAC5 and 2 MLas sounds okay, but my version may require tweaking. Somewhat less ammo, runs hotter, but a bit higher on the alpha.

[Kuaron]

I won a Mechbay in a Halloween loot bag and have the 4X for a couple of days now. ^^

And if one keeps in mind that it's an assault, in the sense of mobile flak tower, with a low nominal tonnage... I mean, people are playing dire and other whales without complaining. Maybe I was lucky but there were several "okay" matches (400-600 dmg) and the least of them wins. So the Mech seems to work.
What I miss are acceleration quirks some other variants have. The twisting quirks are pretty useless for staring down opponents on mid-long range with U/AC5s, and for brawl this Mech seems overall too slow and to hardpoints-starve (for the shorter, lighter and more efficient lasers).
Also, they'd have to fix the head missile slot before one can think about things like 2LBX+SRM4+LPL.

[Kuaron]

As a coincident, Snuggles made a vid about the 4X just today:



His idea for improving it is by removing the arm actuators and so allowing double AC20 and (more important) quad UAC5.
I'd like it, was sinking the same at some point.

Edited by Kuaron, 01 November 2016 - 01:28 PM.

[jss78]

Started levelling Cataphracts due to getting the loyalty variant. Some talk above about XL engines -- I've been astonished by how well my loyalty 'phract deals with one. The gorilla arms seem to shield the side torsos just enough.

I really like the a STD285 + AC/20 + 4xML + ECM build in the CTF-0XP. Not a case of nomen est omen with the "zero XP", in my view. I really enjoy the range quirks on both the AC/20 and the ML's -- throw in range modules for both and you punch into the low end of middle range, which really makes you more flexible. I tend to attach myself to a brawler assault and work as a force multiplier with the ECM cover and my firepower, been working fine.

Picked a 2X for my third one, just to get something a bit different, with the missile hardpoints. Running STD-285, AC/20, 2xML, 2xSRM4, and lots of DHS for really good heat management.