55 replies to this topic

[Myantra]

Bud Crue, on 27 September 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

I was at the bottom of t5 in February. I only started playing QP regularly in April after p3 dropped and everyone fled CW. I play for 45-90 minutes a day on average maybe 4-5 days a week. Maybe that is how the system is supposed to work. I just think otherwise I guess.

I suspect the intention of the PSR system was for players of each tier to primarily play each other, with match filler coming from other tiers only when necessary. The solo QP MM is trying to balance weight classes and PSR, as quickly as possible. In my observation, that seems to generally be how it works. Tier 3 is supposed to be the realm of the average casual player that has been playing long enough to understand the game.

That said, events like this Night Gyr / Heavy Leaderboard one seem to throw the MM a curveball when one weight class is overwhelmingly dominating everything else in the queue.

[Gas Guzzler]

JC Daxion, on 26 September 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

I keep seeing the PSR is broke, it is an EXP bar.. type posts all the time.. and for me this is just NOT the case at all. In 1k+ games my bar has moved a few pixles.

I don't play group, so i don't get boosted by good teams..

I also don't play what is typically the top mechs, or top builds. I like to brawl, i like to push, i use up my armor first more often than not, but i think i am a decent player..


But what i don't do is load up these major meta/OP mechs, and play that Peak and poke, getting 600+ damage.. (i swear some of my best games are ones with 3-4 kills, and maybe 300 damage, because i am hitting the target where i need to, to make the kill)


so it got me thinking, are Players that are not so good, just being rewarded for their bad aim, and OP mechs.. I dunno what i would change,, it was just something i was pondering after reading the PSR is an EXP bar for the 100th time, thinking my PSR has barely budged in a year..

You seem to not be aware that there a several brawl meta builds. It's sounds like your issue is more lack of patience. Solo queue is tough to brawl in, I don't do it because I don't like waiting that log, and you may not even get an opportunity to shine because of your team. But when teamwork is applied, brawling is exceptionally fun and powerful. It's just a matter of your team being on board. If you are pushing in and brawling while your team is back poking or your other brawlers are waiting because they know it isn't time yet, yeah you are going to feel pretty helpless, but there is nothing "non-meta" about brawling.

[process]

"OP mechs" are only a contributing factor. The best player with the metaest mech can't stand against a team that is reasonably well coordinated; they simply don't have the DPS or armor to withstand focus fire.

Generally speaking, PSR can be an indicator of experience, which translates to better ability to read the battlefield and act in concert with your team.

The observed match imbalances that are attributed to PSR are usually just one team having their stuff together slightly better than the other team, and in the public queue that's just luck of the draw. Once one team loses a mech, they're down 1/12, on average, of their firepower and armor. I think the assumption that a balanced match is one that grinds down from 12v12 to 1v1 is flawed.

Edited by process, 27 September 2016 - 07:32 AM.

[KodiakGW]

It's not OP mechs. In another thread I have a screen shot posted where two KDK-4s combined did less than half the damage a MLX did.

MLX OP?

No, the two KDK-4 pilots got put in a game against players they are not ready to face. Be it PSR, MM, pure luck, or low player count. Something is wrong and it needs to be fixed BEFORE anything else.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bandilly, on 26 September 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

Win
Amazing Score - Up Up Up
Good Score - Up Up
Mediocre Score - Up
Pathetic Score - Even

Lose
Amazing Score - Up
Good Score - Even
Mediocre Score - Down
Pathetic Score - Down Down

This is how it should be:

Quote

Win
Amazing Score - Up Up
Good Score - Up
Mediocre Score - Even
Pathetic Score - Down

Lose
Amazing Score - Up
Good Score - Even
Mediocre Score - Down
Pathetic Score - Down Down

Done, that's all it needs

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 September 2016 - 08:31 AM.

[InspectorG]

FALSE EQUIVALENCY: OP MECH = SKILL TO USE IT.

PSR is an experience bar. Farm enough games, you move up.

My own experience is I was tippy top of T3 when PAR dropped and when I got to T2, noticed better play.
More coordination, closer matches, fewer derpfests.

I took 3 months off to play Dark Souls.

Came back and had a wake up call because all the T1/2/3s were doing T4/5 stuff.
Rabbit Runs, Severe Camping, Not focusing down priority targets, no communication. Etc etc...

And yes, the above is still happening in OP Kodiak 3s, ACs, and any other OP robot.

PGI should set a limited number of tier slots and you can only move up if someone moves down, specially for T2+.
I'm proportion of the population of course.

[JC Daxion]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 September 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:

You seem to not be aware that there a several brawl meta builds. It's sounds like your issue is more lack of patience. Solo queue is tough to brawl in, I don't do it because I don't like waiting that log, and you may not even get an opportunity to shine because of your team. But when teamwork is applied, brawling is exceptionally fun and powerful. It's just a matter of your team being on board. If you are pushing in and brawling while your team is back poking or your other brawlers are waiting because they know it isn't time yet, yeah you are going to feel pretty helpless, but there is nothing "non-meta" about brawling.

That is my point.. but thanks for putting it simply.. When the entire team decides to play the 600+ range game you are screwed on many maps. If you are in a slower brawler, you just can't get into range often before the match is decided. Perfect example is Dom on Polar, or Grim.. people sit at the back of the circle and snipe, and if no-one wants to move up.. well you just wasted your drop till either they have dropped enough that even a solo mech can move in, or they took out most of your team and by that point what you do doesn't mater anyway.

Even my good brawl matches i can take down a bunch of mechs with only doing 200-300 damage by hitting the open torso, and that is the whole object with a pin-point fast mover like say an cent AH, or HBK4G, or even some of the fast pulse boats. Mainly my issue is slower brawlers that you can't even get in, and get out if you don't have help and yea,, i like playing them too.. Just wish i could find teams that like to do the heavy push more often.. Ahhh PUG life..



But again, that goes to my point.. Wrecking things for 800 damage does not mean you are a great player, though you have to be at least decent, but decent in an OP mech is far easier to get 800 than say that uber guy doing it in a commando or spider.

The worst rolls i have ever been a part of, be it win or loose, you look at numbers at the end of the match, and maybe the top guy has 400 or something, maybe two.. and the rest of the team is in the 200-350 range and the match is over in 5 mins.Partly because people on the other side might not be that good, but often it is because people are focus firing, hitting the same spot, and just taking down mechs like bowling pins.

Damage that counts to a kill, OR a component destruction, Like all that damage taking down 100 points of armor and structure on the RT, when it doesn't even loose a weapon, but the mech dies because of CT, or LT damage, should not even count towards it.. unless maybe you are also taking fire from said mech while you are doing it. (aka TANKING).. Or taking down an enemy that is about to kill someone ect.. that is what really counts. Not some build that just pumps out damage, and doesn't really help take down mechs. Like when you see people saw, Just use an LRM60 build.. they can often pump out 800 damage more than enough in pugs for example, but that doesn't really help win a match many times. Sure sometimes it does and i am not hating on LRM mechs, but damage is just not the biggest decider..

Just look how often damage is about equal on both sides,, yet the match is 12-5 or something like that.


I guess my whole point is, Select mechs are a much bigger helper to raising PSR, than the majority, and doing high damage in them doesn't often make you a great player.. Know what i mean?

BTW, i say this as not someone that thinks they are awesome,.. I am a decent player that understands the game, and knows how to play, but often my best matches are ones i do 300-400 damage,, not the 500-800 outliers, where i know i didn't play that great, even though the damage says i did.

InspectorG, on 27 September 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

PGI should set a limited number of tier slots and you can only move up if someone moves down, specially for T2+.
I'm proportion of the population of course.

This is an interesting idea... as long as people not playing, or not playing as well could move down easier.. Kinda like Ladder play, where you have to keep playing good to keep your spot.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JC Daxion, on 27 September 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

This is an interesting idea... as long as people not playing, or not playing as well could move down easier.. Kinda like Ladder play, where you have to keep playing good to keep your spot.

This is what people were talking about when talking about a zero sum PSR, that's what has been asked for since the introduction of PSR.

[Ghogiel]

JC Daxion, on 27 September 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

I guess my whole point is, Select mechs are a much bigger helper to raising PSR, than the majority, and doing high damage in them doesn't often make you a great player.. Know what i mean?

Yes, some mechs are better than others.

There really isn't a way to tell the difference between a player who consistantly does high dmg and a great player if you just look at dmg. Fact is if you do loads of dmg it'll get kills, and that leads to wins. It's all linked and there has been data collect to show how it'd fairly consistant relationship.
Saying that, first thing you need to do to get anywhere is dmg the enemy, which makes dmg a fundemental metric imo.

But yeah a lurmer can look good and do dmg and still be a detriment to the team in the end. :shrug:

[C E Dwyer]

JC Daxion, on 26 September 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

I keep seeing the PSR is broke, it is an EXP bar.. type posts all the time.. and for me this is just NOT the case at all. In 1k+ games my bar has moved a few pixles.

I don't play group, so i don't get boosted by good teams..

I also don't play what is typically the top mechs, or top builds. I like to brawl, i like to push, i use up my armor first more often than not, but i think i am a decent player..


But what i don't do is load up these major meta/OP mechs, and play that Peak and poke, getting 600+ damage.. (i swear some of my best games are ones with 3-4 kills, and maybe 300 damage, because i am hitting the target where i need to, to make the kill)


so it got me thinking, are Players that are not so good, just being rewarded for their bad aim, and OP mechs.. I dunno what i would change,, it was just something i was pondering after reading the PSR is an EXP bar for the 100th time, thinking my PSR has barely budged in a year..

Nah it's PSR I don't play meta builds I ain't a player that gets 700 damage constantly, I'm t2 and that's probably as far as I should get, if I continue to play and win at my current rate, about five games a day, and some weeks I don't log in at all, i'm going to hit T1 around march next year

I have an alt account for the what mech challenge, i made t3 before my cadet bounses dried up in a Victor, it's PSR all the way and not the mech you pilot..

[InspectorG]

JC Daxion, on 27 September 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

This is an interesting idea... as long as people not playing, or not playing as well could move down easier.. Kinda like Ladder play, where you have to keep playing good to keep your spot.

Not my idea but sounds workable with a small-ish population.

[GurpGork]

THERE IS NO MM. PSR as a way to make it so even though they claim to have a MM, they simply do not. Everyone understands this. Their MM systems have never worked well. All garbage up to this point. PSR was just a way to say "F it", by pretending like they have one, when in reality, its just all skills in the same pot.

[JC Daxion]

GurpGork, on 27 September 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

THERE IS NO MM. PSR as a way to make it so even though they claim to have a MM, they simply do not. Everyone understands this. Their MM systems have never worked well. All garbage up to this point. PSR was just a way to say "F it", by pretending like they have one, when in reality, its just all skills in the same pot.

I don't believe this.. PSR is working better than the old system.. Why do i say this? Well the old system, i was almost always in the top 3 scorers on my team. I also never saw many of the people that i knew where considered great players. So the old system always tossed me in with people that i was pretty much better than, or at least on par with.

this new system, i know can still be a top scorer, but i also see people that i know are great players, and are better than me.. and they can typically get the better of me.

IMO this means the new PSR system is working better in many aspects.. IT might not be perfect, but i do think it is better than the old.

Higher population would also help it work better as well. I am not saying it is perfect, but it is better than the old system, at least from my experiences.


Maybe people did like the old system better.. I can't speak for people that were T1's when it came out, but for me, i started getting matches with people that were better for sure. Though maybe i am just one of the scrubs t1's complain about in their matches now...

[mogs01gt]

JC Daxion, on 26 September 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

I keep seeing the PSR is broke, it is an EXP bar.. type posts all the time.. and for me this is just NOT the case at all. In 1k+ games my bar has moved a few pixles.
I don't play group, so i don't get boosted by good teams..
I also don't play what is typically the top mechs, or top builds. I like to brawl, i like to push, i use up my armor first more often than not, but i think i am a decent player..
But what i don't do is load up these major meta/OP mechs, and play that Peak and poke, getting 600+ damage.. (i swear some of my best games are ones with 3-4 kills, and maybe 300 damage, because i am hitting the target where i need to, to make the kill)
so it got me thinking, are Players that are not so good, just being rewarded for their bad aim, and OP mechs.. I dunno what i would change,, it was just something i was pondering after reading the PSR is an EXP bar for the 100th time, thinking my PSR has barely budged in a year..

The game is sadly not designed for players like you and I...Its really a shame.

[Idealsuspect]

Cathy, on 27 September 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

Nah it's PSR I don't play meta builds I ain't a player that gets 700 damage constantly, I'm t2 and that's probably as far as I should get, if I continue to play and win at my current rate, about five games a day, and some weeks I don't log in at all, i'm going to hit T1 around march next year

Yea you will.

For be tier 1 you don't need to do 700 damage constantly ...
300 damage in average even when you lose ( well 300 isnt a big thing for anybody i guess if you don't drive a light with low alpha ) and at end you will be tier 1 easy just need farming like for a XP bar.

Well of course 500-700 damage, lose or win, you will be tier 1 full bar all time really faster.

[Idealsuspect]

JC Daxion, on 27 September 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:

I don't believe this.. PSR is working better than the old system.. Why do i say this? Well the old system, i was almost always in the top 3 scorers on my team. I also never saw many of the people that i knew where considered great players. So the old system always tossed me in with people that i was pretty much better than, or at least on par with.

I don't think so, i didn't like ELO or PSR system both are crap but ours experiences or feedbacks about ELO were fake becose during ELO time, groups and solo queues were mixed and also provide lots of shitbag of matchs impossible to balance for any MMs ( specially a MM created by PGI lol ).


Well many potatoes who did farm the system by dropping as groups for farm reals solo pugs did left the game coze there is nothing to exploit now for them

[Karl Streiger]

Idealsuspect, on 27 September 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

Well many potatoes who did farm the system by dropping as groups for farm reals solo pugs did left the game coze there is nothing to exploit now for them

Potatoes? Farm what? I don't understand you.
Potatoes are those that didn't learn the basics of MWO. And even those will rise in Tier simple because the other team has as many potatoes.

300dmg and everything is fine? Sure your are right. In the average game ~300dmg should be the average damage you should be able to deliver - if your team win and if both teams are equal - and don't have players that are unable to even pass most academy "missions" with their Mech.

Your so-called individual skill is an illusion. You can be skilled as hell - when you run with a buddy in a group in a group with 5 4 different groups and different sizes - facing the other team that is a single 12men group running only Vindicator - you can predict that you will lose.

So it is not the Mech - it is the team that has the most impact on the game.
however 12 Novas vs 12 Hunchbacks 4Ps has also a very clear outcome - so the second important factor is indeed the Mech and how you play the Mechlab

so when you play MWO in solo QP and in 2 out of 3 games you think you did carry the team with >1000dmg. This doesn't happen because you are so good - it happens because your team is bad as well as the other team.

If those 23 players that are on the same map with you would have mastered the basics of MWO

• build a mech that doesn't suck;
  
  • use this Mech how it should be used (reason I would never suggest a new player to use a tier list to create a Tier1 Mech; its a pity that PGI is unable to understand that the Champion Mechs are bad - because those Champions should not try to mimic Tier1 Mechs - Champions = Trial should be user friendly Mechs, and of course those Mechs should also be able to run the academy with good outcome)
• basic movement
  
  • don't cross the hills you idots walk around
    
  • oh yes, i totaly didn't expect you to come out of this cover - i thought you did use another position - after the 12th time of negative damage trading
    
  • this is a wall, no this wall doesn't move even when you are shooting
• deflecting - twisting - circling
  
• shooting - hitting target were they are weak
  
• attention (map;enemy movement; team movement; target data)
  
• focus fire

thats it. everything else - like using the potatos in your team as meatshield, leading the command, using the terrain, map knowledge...is something you don't need to be successful.
So the difference between a competive player, and a casual player that hardly play 100games a year like me is tiny.
It is existend of course but to 99% battles between 12 competive and 12 casuals are dicided because of Mech and Team performance - not because the other guy shoots 0.1sec faster, or has a 10% better accuracy.

[kapusta11]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 September 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

Win
Amazing Score - Up Up
Good Score - Up
Mediocre Score - Even
Pathetic Score - Down

Lose
Amazing Score - Up
Good Score - Even
Mediocre Score - Down
Pathetic Score - Down Down

I dunno, I'd prefer something like this:

Win
Amazing Score - Up
Good Score - Up
Mediocre Score - Down
Pathetic Score - Down

Lose
Amazing Score - Up
Good Score - Up
Mediocre Score - Down
Pathetic Score - Down

First, we need more "tiers", 100 will be enough. That is needed for better accuracy. Then, player's skill is more or less a constant, it does improve, but only over a sizeable period of time. Therefore your skill evaluation number should be a constant a well. Your "tier" will fluctuate in something like±5 range but that will be it. Unless there is a real improvement and you systematically perform better more often there will be no substantial increase in your tier rating.

Edited by kapusta11, 29 September 2016 - 03:04 AM.

[Idealsuspect]

Karl Streiger, on 29 September 2016 - 02:02 AM, said:

Potatoes? Farm what? I don't understand you.
Potatoes are those that didn't learn the basics of MWO. And even those will rise in Tier simple because the other team has as many potatoes.

Everybody is the potato of someone else ...

The potatoes for you, aren't same potatoes for me Maybe you are a potato for me, maybe i am for you but well i guess you and me know what is the good answer...

A 12' full of potatoes will lose agaisnt a 4' elite pilots + 8 average pilots or even + 8 potatoes coordinated or not...
They may even lose vs 12' average solo pugs, we did saw it A LOT in MANY FW matchs.

Weak peoples, in group or not, are still weak if they are lead by a total potato who can only say ok "we go yolo there" but they may have success if they are lead by a guy who know what is doing or what is about to do ennemy team.


Aim skills are secondary in this game coze ours mechs also ours targets are mainly BIG and SLOW. Easy point & click game we play unless you don't use only PPC or gauss there is no real problems for aim anything bigger than a jenner.

Primary skill is how you move and if yours moves are legit.. du of map awareness or overall situation awareness.


Reals potatoes in this game are non-creative people, people who camp under UAVs, people who began to check mini map only when they are specting theirs teamates coze they are dead, people who begin to rush into ennemy team with theirs backup lasers after theirs whole was obliterred ...
In group or not in group, a potato is stilll a potato.

[Idealsuspect]

kapusta11, on 29 September 2016 - 03:02 AM, said:

I dunno, I'd prefer something like this:

Win
Amazing Score - Up
Good Score - Up
Mediocre Score - Down
Pathetic Score - Down

Lose
Amazing Score - Up
Good Score - Up
Mediocre Score - Down
Pathetic Score - Down

First, we need more "tiers", 100 will be enough. That is needed for better accuracy. Then, player's skill is more or less a constant, it does improve, but only over a sizeable period of time. Therefore your skill evaluation number should be a constant a well. Your "tier" will fluctuate in something like±5 range but that will be it. Unless there is a real improvement and you systematically perform better more often there will be no substantial increase in your tier rating.

We need less tier IMO in fact 3 would be enough. Remember playerbase is tiny.

Bad pilots...
Average pilots.
And goods pilots.


Lots of elite pilots ( lots dont mean all ) play YOLO style and sometime fall with 150 damage point ( more than 3 alpha ) sometime with 1000 depend what kind of pilots they did face early in the match and in overall if they were lucky about meeting.

Lots of bad pilots ( lots dont mean all ) play very PASSIVE and fall in last place with 50 damage ( not even an alpha for an atlas ) sometime 250 when they did perform well lol.
At last we can say thoses guys are really constant in theirs pathetics results...

Well for average pilots it depend about how many YOLO pilots and many PASSIVE pilots MM put in each team

Edited by Idealsuspect, 29 September 2016 - 03:21 AM.